HDR Discussion Thread

[DanBa]

"There is no license fee to the studio or the show producers to create Dolby Vision content and all other deliverables."

is somehow contradictory with

"Dolby Vision License: Activates CMU and color grading plug-in"
https://help.prodicle.com/hc/en-us/a...lby-Vision-HDR

[Geoff D]

I think the two things are being conflated somewhat, even in Dolby's own bumpf: What they're saying is that the STUDIO doesn't have to pay for it as it's all on the post house to do so instead! Charming. [edit] (And people wonder why VFX houses aren't all rocking the gear needed to produce 4K VFX in 10 seconds flat, they're not being subsidised by the studios and they have to pay their own way.)

So if you're the actual physical originator of the Dolby content then you DO have to pay for the DV licence (the "software needed") in order to actually use the DV mastering suite, along with paying for (buying/renting) the hardware CMU which integrates into any compatible grading suite.

But in terms of DV software creation you DON'T pay by unit, you've already paid your yearly 'Dolby Vision Mastering & Playback Service Agreement' and are then free to create & distribute as little or as much DV content as you wish.

[Geoff D]

Oh, and dig this: if you buy DaVinci Resolve Studio you actually get Dolby Vision included with it, featuring a software-based internal CMU (iCMU) to enable the different outputs for the trim passes! It's got the Level 1 automatic "analysis metadata" enabled for free (yes sports fans, even DV first creates metadata using those dastardly automated methods), but if users want to access L2 manually adjustable "artistic trim metadata" to fine tune the other passes (lift/gamma/gain etc) then they need to pay for the licence to enable the DV Palette in Resolve.

[Fendergopher]

HDR really does increase the workload of post houses, I hope studios recognize the impact post work can make on their finished product. With great power comes great responsibility, and all that.

[Geoff D]

Sure, but when you realise that big event movies can have upwards of 20-odd different deliverables just for the cinema then HDR isn't as big of a deal as it might seem. I mentioned this to someone in the 12 Monkeys thread in the main forum, that I honestly don't think that it's any more or less workload intensive than what a regular SDR grade would be, it's just another grade (with its own strengths and weaknesses) to add to the pile at this point.

[Fendergopher]

Originally Posted by Geoff D

Sure, but when you realise that big event movies can have upwards of 20-odd different deliverables just for the cinema then HDR isn't as big of a deal as it might seem. I mentioned this to someone in the 12 Monkeys thread in the main forum, that I honestly don't think that it's any more or less workload intensive than what a regular SDR grade would be, it's just another grade (with its own strengths and weaknesses) to add to the pile at this point.

Definitely, it may just be a drop in the bucket depending on the size and experience of any given post house, though it does raise the bar for what a commercial post pipeline entails somewhat. The indies are definitely taking stuff like this into consideration at least. Time is money as always, so post work is always on a timer whether explicitly or implicitly. I'm amazed at how good the work coming out of post houses can be when they're handling multiple projects at once constantly.

[Geoff D]

I think that's the point though mate, the primo establishments are so adept at juggling all these different versions that it's second nature by now, and many have their own in-house colour science to minimise the workflow of translating one look to the next instead of having to regrade each and every one from scratch. As for indies, by their nature they're not going to have to contend with scads of extra deliverables along the lines of 4.5fL 3D, 7fL 3D, IMAX xenon, IMAX Laser, Dolby Vision 2D & 3D and so on, so dealing with a primary 2D SDR pass and a possible HDR variant isn't going to break the bank. Sorry if it seems like I'm intent on picking holes in what you're saying, but that's kinda my thing. Should any of this be incorrect then there are actual insiders up in here who'll set the story straight.

[Penton-Man]

Evidence of Tom’s good genes and healthy living made National News last evening….
https://abcnews.go.com/WNT/video/top...ealed-58394165

Although, keep in mind, he has a right to look a little more seasoned as he’s an instructor this time around – https://forum.blu-ray.com/showthread...r#post15594351

P.S.
Any military lurkers reading this thread? Do you know what fighter squadron insignia patch is overlying the right side of his chest, or is it fictional license for the motion picture? Research for Top Gun: Maverick has even involved rummaging thru the archives of the https://twitter.com/_tailhook_?lang=en

And, like with the original Top Gun movie –



TG: M filmmakers have also employed technical advisors to try to make the sequel as realistic as possible, without becoming boring.

[Penton-Man]

Originally Posted by Penton-Man

Evidence of Tom

For you guys and gals on base, keep an eye peeled this weekend.

[Penton-Man]

Originally Posted by Fendergopher

HDR really does increase the workload of post houses, I hope studios recognize the impact post work can make on their finished product. With great power comes great responsibility, and all that.

It’s been predicted by folks at the cutting edge, that ultimately, content creation will be done first in HDR (http://www.displaysummit.com/high-dy...tent-creation/) and, as I mentioned previously, for home deliverables, Netflix is already onboard with this practice. In the grand scheme of things, work continues on developing a single master -

From - https://forum.blu-ray.com/showthread...y#post15607799, this ->

‘We have an impressive set of work and results from our Advanced Imaging Committee that is making some real progress in establishing a scientific basis, understanding, and guidelines to support presentation of artistic intent on a wide range of displays, in a wide range of display environments, for a wide range of material, potentially originated from a single master. (As demonstrated by Chair Gary Demos in his 2018 HPA Innovation Zone demo of
single master appearance compensation for bright and dim surround.) But before you get too confident, look for our upcoming article that will include the daunting list of appearance phenomena that need to be revisited/
reexamined in light of modern HDR display and camera capabilities.

An aside for Fender folk , (and not far at all from where a currently active and successful cinematographer of note went to college) -
local OC history….https://www.ocweekly.com/relics-of-f...ender-6445089/

[Penton-Man]

Originally Posted by Geoff D

It's got the Level 1 automatic "analysis metadata" enabled for free (yes sports fans, even DV first creates metadata using those dastardly automated methods), but if users want to access L2....

Don’t know about ray (excerpted from a post last February),

Originally Posted by Penton-Man

Ray, if you really like this stuff, don’t settle for being simply a consumer of goods. I think you’re still young enough to make your passion your career….https://www.abelcine.com/learn/calen...s-with-the-ica .

You’ll learn about things like Level 2 DV metadata.

but I notice you’ve been learning.

[Penton-Man]

Originally Posted by Kris Deering

Funny you mention bikes, I loaned my Blu-ray of the Penton Story to my dad yesterday to check out. He is turning 70 this week and is thinking about buying one of those Honda Monkeys to fool around with. He used to repair/rebuild mini bikes before I was born to fool around with when he wasn't desert riding on a Bulltaco.

Kris, I spoke with someone on set who directed me to this video. Your Dad may enjoy this J.N. ( https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/J.N._Roberts)
at 75 (back then, he rode a Husky) –

https://vimeo.com/177291762

[Fendergopher]

Originally Posted by Geoff D

I think that's the point though mate, the primo establishments are so adept at juggling all these different versions that it's second nature by now, and many have their own in-house colour science to minimise the workflow of translating one look to the next instead of having to regrade each and every one from scratch. As for indies, by their nature they're not going to have to contend with scads of extra deliverables along the lines of 4.5fL 3D, 7fL 3D, IMAX xenon, IMAX Laser, Dolby Vision 2D & 3D and so on, so dealing with a primary 2D SDR pass and a possible HDR variant isn't going to break the bank. Sorry if it seems like I'm intent on picking holes in what you're saying, but that's kinda my thing. Should any of this be incorrect then there are actual insiders up in here who'll set the story straight.

Not at all, I quite enjoy discussions like this, it's a good way to learn and keep up-to-date on the state of the film industry. Your point about indies not really having to consider the same amount of cinema deliverables as Hollywood is of course an important factor that probably contributes to their ability to do what they do, i.e. deliver often niche content to a niche audience.

Originally Posted by Penton-Man

It’s been predicted by folks at the cutting edge, that ultimately, content creation will be done first in HDR (http://www.displaysummit.com/high-dy...tent-creation/) and, as I mentioned previously, for home deliverables, Netflix is already onboard with this practice. In the grand scheme of things, work continues on developing a single master -

From - https://forum.blu-ray.com/showthread...y#post15607799, this ->

‘We have an impressive set of work and results from our Advanced Imaging Committee that is making some real progress in establishing a scientific basis, understanding, and guidelines to support presentation of artistic intent on a wide range of displays, in a wide range of display environments, for a wide range of material, potentially originated from a single master. (As demonstrated by Chair Gary Demos in his 2018 HPA Innovation Zone demo of
single master appearance compensation for bright and dim surround.) But before you get too confident, look for our upcoming article that will include the daunting list of appearance phenomena that need to be revisited/
reexamined in light of modern HDR display and camera capabilities.

An aside for Fender folk , (and not far at all from where a currently active and successful cinematographer of note went to college) -
local OC history….https://www.ocweekly.com/relics-of-f...ender-6445089/

Good stuff, it's heartening to see all the different aspects of HDR tech being considered from a scientific point of view, with the creator's intent in mind. It's all about how you use the tech available.

[Penton-Man]

Originally Posted by Penton-Man

For those of you tourist types someday planning a stay on Coronado (which is where current TG: M filming is taking place) and wondering where to unpack your suitcases, well, the Del, because of its longtime heritage has the rep for being the finest hotel, but personally I think the true and relatively unknown gem (due to its location on the bay which is sweeeet!) is the Coronado Island Marriott Resort & Spa, especially if you can afford a private cottage. You never know who you might run into on the way to the lobby.

And unlike with the Hotel Del, which has had its healthy share of ghost sightings in and around its rooms in the past (google it for more info), afaik, the Coronado Island Marriott Resort & Spa is completely clean of such spirits.

Lunch over, later, back to work for me.

[Penton-Man]

I don’t have time to individually respond to all the diverse PM’s (which have now filled up PM box to 99% full ) –



with regards to what I’m told are today’s multiple AV blogger reviews of what I presume is the imminent availability of Samsung 8K television(s) to the marketplace. In a nutshell, yes, any possible real boost in nits with these TVs is good for the color volume of HDR content but, for those who missed it the first time around, please study this phrase and the associated hyperlink for real imaging science –

Originally Posted by Penton-Man

the the ridiculousness of 8K spatial resolution without there being a big compensatory increase in frame rate )

Bottom Line: I wouldn’t rush in and spend your money on the newest highest rez TV because the next significant boost in image detail should come from native 2160p(4K) content with WCG+HDR+HFR(100/120fps) <- captured, coded, retransmitted, decoded and displayed in 100 or 120 progressive frames per second which engineers (not marketeers every year or less, tempting folks with relief from money burning a hole in their pockets), are testing now, e.g. –

http://www.tmbroadcast.es/index.php/...-emision-uhd1/
https://translate.google.com/transla...1/&prev=search

Lastly, manufacturers and reviewers have made claims before as to how great this brand or that brand’s latest motion interpolation algorithms do with reducing blur and showing detail, but fact is, intensive scientific testing like previously done at Orange Labs and their partners like ATEME has shown such artificial solutions lacking as compared to native HFR (100/120fps). For proof, start this vimeo clip a little prior to the 1hr.12m timestamp – https://vimeo.com/154286490

[gkolb]

Originally Posted by Penton-Man

I don’t have time to individually respond to all the diverse PM’s (which have now filled up PM box to 99% full ) –

Uhhhh, did you get spam’ed?

[puddy77]

Since there was conversation about post houses and color grades, I thought I'd mention this promo from Deluxe showing off their new grading suite that is also Dolby Vision and Atmos compliant:

https://www.bydeluxe.com/en/get-to-k...ent-hollywood/

[Geoff D]

Originally Posted by gkolb

Uhhhh, did you get spam’ed?

I doubt it. I have to to empty my box every now and then.

[Penton-Man]

Originally Posted by gkolb

Uhhhh, did you get spam’ed?

Nothing so dramatic. That’s all backlog. I never get around to deleting more than about 1 or 2 PMs at a time in order to keep the box at 990 full with enough space to spare for an additional 10 more each day. Yesterday, I got real close to the 1000 limit as I received 7 PMs and 6 of them were folks asking my thoughts as to the 8K tv from Samsung and 1 PM from someone inquiring details as to the filming of Top Gun: Maverick.



Much quicker for me to just post a generic comment here about the 8K tv than to answer each of the 6 folks individually.

[Penton-Man]

Originally Posted by puddy77

Since there was conversation about post houses and color grades, I thought I'd mention this promo from Deluxe showing off their new grading suite that is also Dolby Vision and Atmos compliant:

https://www.bydeluxe.com/en/get-to-k...ent-hollywood/

along those lines, this too - https://pixelogicmedia.com/pixelogic...aters-burbank/