8K discussion thread

[Robert Zohn]

Joe Kane is a friend and I have the greatest respect for him personally and professionally. However, nothing about 4K SDR from 2013 relates to today's 4K HDR image.

[Auditor55]

Originally Posted by JohnAV

Simple go to your 4K capable YouTube app on TV.
Find 4K Urban Life look at the virtual walks in 4K and some others that are only HD. Both would be in SDR.
If they look identical in resolution your TV is not a 4K OLED.

Example
London, Great Britain - 4K Virtual Walking Tour around the City - Part #1 - YouTube

None of our sets are actually 4K, but the "K" sells.

[JohnAV]

Originally Posted by Auditor55

Please bring me someone credible (with similar or greater credentials than Joe Kane), that would refute what he's said. He was right then and what he said was proven correct. Now if this man is saying this, why do I need to go down to Best Buy and try to prove him wrong (SMH).

Note: If what said about 4K is correct it also stand true for 8K.

Robert already did that with Florian Friedrich in a earlier post, see his 8K resolution: Hype or benefit? article for example. Joe Kane hails from Eastman Kodak that went bankrupt in 2012. I suggest you try to show something that Joe Kane put online that is comparable instead of showing us a AVS hometheater geeks episode.

[Auditor55]

Originally Posted by Robert Zohn

Joe Kane is a friend and I have the greatest respect for him personally and professionally. However, nothing about 4K SDR from 2013 relates to today's 4K HDR image.

So you will vouch that he's not some clueless idiot Anyway, what he was saying then was that higher resolutions alone would be insufficient to sell 4K, he said he worked with high resolution content, he also had an 85 4K display, if you looked at the picture in the video, that he sat very close to which he based his opinion on. He had practical experience with these formats and he wasn't just shooting from the hip.

Today, we see most 4K displays with not just higher resolution, but HDR 10, HDR10+, Dolby Vision, etc., so he was exactly right. Its extremely hard to tell the difference between 4K and 2K, taking into account screen size and seating distance. HDR and Wider Color Gamuts are making the greatest difference between 2K and 4K displays because 2K displays don't come with those technologies incorporated in them.

[R3P0]

Originally Posted by Auditor55

None of our sets are actually 4K, but the "K" sells.

Touche sir I forgot they took off like 640 pixles on the current 4k standard

[Auditor55]

Originally Posted by JohnAV

Robert already did that with Florian Friedrich in a earlier post, see his 8K resolution: Hype or benefit? article for example. Joe Kane hails from Eastman Kodak that went bankrupt in 2012. I suggest you try to show something that Joe Kane put online that is comparable instead of showing us a AVS hometheater geeks episode.

Straw Man arguments and ad hominem attacks notwithstanding, you can't refute a word he has to say.

[Auditor55]

Dr. Raymond Soneira - Founder, President and CEO of DisplayMate Technologies Corporation


"The developer of DisplayMate is an internationally recognized research scientist with a distinguished career that spans physics, computer science, and television system design. Dr. Soneira obtained his Ph.D. in Theoretical Physics from Princeton University, spent 5 years as a Long-Term Member of the world famous Institute for Advanced Study in Princeton, another 5 years as a Principal Investigator in the Computer Systems Research Laboratory at AT&T Bell Laboratories, and has designed, tested, and installed color television broadcast equipment for the CBS Television Network Engineering and Development Department. He has authored over 35 research articles in scientific journals in physics and computer science, including Scientific American.

Dr. Soneira's background covers a wide spectrum of internationally recognized leading edge research in electronics, optics, applied mathematics, theoretical and experimental physics. For example: he has designed color television broadcast equipment for the CBS Television Network, built a computer mathematical model of a television system for optimizing the camera to receiver performance and accuracy of the optics and electronics for CBS, a leader of a team at Bell Labs Research that built intelligent autonomous mobile robots, designed an all-electronic 360 degree viewing angle imaging laser range finder using the parallax principle, did the mathematical foundation of the fine guidance system for the Hubble Space Telescope, built the accepted standard model of the Milky Way Galaxy (which is named after him), built theoretical high redshift cosmological and stellar models for the Hubble Space Telescope, has done fundamental work on the analysis of clustering and super-clustering of galaxies, plus work in Relativity and nuclear physics."

Again, let me post another expert opinion, however before doing so, I wanted to post his background or resume. JohnAV, I guess he's a clueless idiot too that doesn't know what he's talking about. Maybe he filed bankruptcy, or his wife divorced him and took half, which mean he's doesn't know anything display technology or display resolution. Here's his quote:

"When it comes to televisions touting new 4K technology, "a regular human isn't going to see a difference," said Raymond Soneira, head of display-testing firm DisplayMate Technologies."

Now you can extrapolate that to 8K as well.

[Auditor55]

Now please tell me, why I need to go to Best Buy to see for myself and listen to some kid at Best Buy telling me different?

[Robert Zohn]

Originally Posted by Auditor55

So you will vouch that he's not some clueless idiot Anyway, what he was saying then was that higher resolutions alone would be insufficient to sell 4K, he said he worked with high resolution content, he also had an 85 4K display, if you looked at the picture in the video, that he sat very close to which he based his opinion on. He had practical experience with these formats and he wasn't just shooting from the hip.

Today, we see most 4K displays with not just higher resolution, but HDR 10, HDR10+, Dolby Vision, etc., so he was exactly right. Its extremely hard to tell the difference between 4K and 2K, taking into account screen size and seating distance. HDR and Wider Color Gamuts are making the greatest difference between 2K and 4K displays because 2K displays don't come with those technologies incorporated in them.

Joe Kane is a very highly respected video expert. I have had the great pleasure and honor of working with Joe Kane at two of my annual TV Shootout Evaluation Events. Here's a short video of Joe Kane presenting 4K UHD at my 2014 TV Shootout.

https://youtu.be/pRf08HLRCfg?t=1029

However, I still dispute your analogy of 4K resolution and or 8K resolution and the benefits of higher resolution at viewing distances further than what the eye charts would lead you to think.

Please read some of the links I listed earlier to get an understanding of how and why 8K benefits owners with viewing further back then how we measure the human viewing system. Joe Kane would also agree with all of my posts and with those I also posted from one of the world leaders in video science, Florian Friedrich.

[Penton-Man]

Originally Posted by Auditor55

Stop with inflammatory word's like trolling.

Please don’t play the victim, it is what it is, you were making these constant generalizations without citing any evidence.

Originally Posted by Auditor55

I sit about 9.5 feet from my 65 inch 4K OLED display and I can't tell difference between SDR 1080p content and SDR so-called 4K content.

Others, such as ray0414 who comes to mind, have the exact opposite experience with their TVs.

Originally Posted by Auditor55

I Challenge you to bring to this forum and/or post any credible expert in the field display technology or human visual acuity that will claim that human beings can make out the details of increased resolution of of likes of 4K and 8K size and seating distance notwithstanding.

Hasn’t Robert already done that for you and others specifically citing Florian’s work? (not that I agree with him on everything such as HDR10+ vs. Dolby Vision, Samsung vs. LG’s true 8K where I think politics got involved in science, or him fighting way below his weight class by needlessly making fun of a poor Sony Professional rep in Germany).

Look, for years with rare exceptions (like that Sony white paper that Blu-rayNut enjoys referencing, but fails to acknowledge the caveats - footnote #3 – “Stars visible to the naked eye represent powerful contrast against the night sky and can be smaller than one arcminute in diameter. Humans are also an order of magnitude more sensitive to misalignment (vernier acuity.”) video engineers have simply extrapolated Snellen vision into their screen to eye distance assertions without accounting for Vernier acuity - https://forum.blu-ray.com/showthread...1#post15637076

If you’d been open-minded and more studious you would have seen that just of couple days ago I hyperlinked an old post from 2013 with research corroborating the validity of Vernier acuity - https://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pmc/articles/PMC3293147/ and if you do a search on PuBMed there a several more with grants from independent organizations like the National Eye Institute.

But this obsession as to whose right or wrong with regards to visual acuity and displays’ resolution strays from the main point which is - https://www.displaydaily.com/article...an-just-pixels

And Robert Zohn has gone on record essentially verifying the superiority of 8K tvs over 4K tvs at normal viewing distances in his showroom set up. Anyone, with or without advanced vision training is free to visit his showroom and dispute his assertions. Essentially, he’s put his reputation on the line.

[Penton-Man]

Originally Posted by Auditor55

Here's his quote:
"When it comes to televisions touting new 4K technology, "a regular human isn't going to see a difference," said Raymond Soneira, head of display-testing firm DisplayMate Technologies."

I don't read many of the threads outside a couple in this tech forum, but I think that has since been disproven by the experiences of many 4K tv owners.

[Penton-Man]

Originally Posted by Auditor55

I thought I would post this background on Mr. Joe Kane. So I guess this man is an idiot and a clueless nincompoop that doesn't know what he's talking about.

I wouldn’t say that ^ at all as he’s a rather smart fellow as long as he stays within the scope of his expertise and experience, but, fact is, Joe’s been blatantly incorrect before, in regards to both technical – https://forum.blu-ray.com/showthread...g#post10982273

And non-technical, studio-related matters -

Home Theater Geeks 264: SpectraCal on HDR - YouTube

and there have been several other examples of him getting it wrong on other things as posted by a host of other members like Wendell

Originally Posted by Wendell R. Breland

IIRC, JKP produced a test tape for D-VHS machines and apparently was not encoded correctly. This was pointed out by member drmpeg (dr1394 on AVS). I believe Ron was involved with the design (MPEG and Firewire) for the D-VHS D-Theater machines. Need to send him a PM or email and see if he plans to create and post some UHD/4K test patterns. His HDTV patterns here. Lost all respect for JK during the disc format war.

At any rate I use the Sony, Disney and Spears & Munsil disc.

Richard Paul

Originally Posted by Richard Paul

I remember a podcast with Joe Kane in which he said that the bit depth for UHDTV would have to go to 16-bits since the color space was twice as big as HDTV. On a podcast a few months later for the same website he said 12-bits would be needed for UHDTV so someone must have explained binary math to him. I found it interesting that on both podcasts he sounded confident in what he said.

PeterTHX, etc.

So, despite one’s credentials, you still have to vet the information presented as to its accuracy. As an aside, I have two advanced degrees (including a PhD) and I expect no less from my colleagues.

[PaulGo]

As Robert stated except for pixel density the benefits of enhanced 8K picture quality could be put into 4K TVs (at a higher cost). Because the 4K market is saturated I assume TV manufacturers don't feel they can recover the costs of putting the technology into 4K sets. Is the cost of replacing a good quality 4K set with an 8K for a slightly better picture worth it? TV manufactures hope so but for most people it would not.

[Penton-Man]

Originally Posted by Penton-Man

Essentially, he’s [Robert Z.] put his reputation on the line.

And Auditor55, note I place my reputation on the line (which my lawyer informs me could potentially open me up to liability if procedure/surgeries had a poor outcome) by occasionally offering referrals to members, be it in the state of Washington, or, more recently in SoCal, regarding overcoming issues of visual acuity, e.g. - https://forum.blu-ray.com/showthread...n#post16691626

so, you see (no pun intended) understanding the nuances of human visual acuity/perception related to display technology is, for me, rather rudimentary in comparison.

[JohnAV]

Skyworth’s Upcoming 75″ Q91 8K Display Is A Feast For The Eyes - WCCFTech

The flagship television for Skyworth is the 75" Q91, their AI-enhanced display for 2020. Skyworth started their presentation for their upcoming lineup of consumer televisions with a number of accolades and awards that they've won over the years. Most notably, Skyworth launched the world's first full color gamut television as well as China's first OLED display in 2013 as well as holding the honors of being China's first internet television and 3D LED television. From January until November 2019, Skyworth sold the highest number of products at retail (including their coocaa line) with over seven million units sold in that period and a retail market share of 17.2% in China, surpassing both Hisense and TCL in their native market.

Much more than a television, Skyworth's Q91 8K display wants to be the central command for all of your smart devices. Through their integrated IoT software, Swaiot, the Q91 can remotely voice control other compatible smart appliances to become a virtual housekeeper. This extra bit of IoT software is controlled via a tablet that connects to the Q91 and also functions as the remote, although Skyworth promised that there would be a traditional button remote included in the box as well. For those than don't mind an extra camera in their home, the external soundbar features a built-in 12MP AI camera, powered by Sony sensor and ISP (image signal processing) chips and an F1.8 aperture with a 1.4µm single-pixel sensor. This soundbar-integrated camera only pops up while in use and is powered by TrensAI to support not just video chat but motion gaming and facial recognition.

To bring the audio of what you're watching to life, the Skyworth Q91 supports Dolby Atmos 2.1.2 audio decoding. The included subwoofer operates on a 5.8G wireless signal, and while the soundbar itself isn't wireless, there's a good reason for that. All of the main video inputs and sources are run through the rear inputs on the soundbar, with only a single flat cable to connect to the Q91 itself.

The Skyworth 75" Q91 will support both HDR10 and Dolby Vision, assisted by the display's full-array local dimming across 576 LED dimming zones. Among the other features touted during the reveal of the Q91 was the image processing engine that features AI processing with the ability to process and convert an incoming signal up to an 8K resolution and 120 frames per second.

Skyworth announced that the 75" Q91 8K television will begin shipping in June at a retail price of $5,999 USD. This price puts Skyworth's flagship display into the same market of other 4320p displays, such as LG's SM9970 and Samsung's Q900 displays, both units that debuted last year shortly after CES 2019.

[JohnAV]

TCL 8K QLED Mini LED TV! - YouTube

[ray0414]

The 75" skyworth is literally the last flagship 75' TV I'd buy in a long list if 75" high end tvs. If I'm going 75" lcd, gimme that 5000 zone mini led on glass TCL for half the price of the Skywalker TV.

[R3P0]

Originally Posted by Auditor55

I sit about 9.5 feet from my 65 inch 4K OLED display and I can't tell difference between SDR 1080p content and SDR so-called 4K content. I notice the difference when so-called 4K content is enhanced by Dolby Vision or HDR 10, not even taking to account 8K.

I don't personally need to see 8K when I have difficulty see distinguishing between 2K and 4K.

My wife was the same way and could not tell the difference between varying resolutions. It may be something in the way your brain is perceiving things. Its not a knock on you by any means but what I did for her I put 2 broadcasts side by side and I let her see the difference.

This may be something you want to try, you have a OLED 4K TV you really should be able to distinguish between 720/1080/2160 SDR and HDR. I can truly tell on my Sony 4K OLED between the resolutions.

I also dont know specifically if the reason 4K looks so good on my OLED is due to the fact I invested in a high end 4K player or not. I do get what your saying about 8K and until the content is released in true 8K we may never see the difference it may be nothing more then a stupid marketing scheme.

Sadly as you and others have said before people like big numbers. so naturally whats the next big number after 4k well its 8k then 16 then 32 etc etc.

[JohnAV]

There has been all that much news except the usual penning of now is not the best time to buy a 8k TV, but they all seem to throw in the chart argument. Some of the parties seem to be ignorant as heck. Rational types use lack of 8k content, however this is a extra bad example.

The world doesn’t need 8K TV—yet - Quartz

This one is basing this on a chart trying define the optimum distance so close it’s laughable. Yes for 8k this claims you need to sit within 2 feet of 8k to count the pixels rather look at is there any perception of image improvement, a 4K 65” a paltry 4.5 feet to count the pixels. Now that we have a lot of 4K displays owners, how many of us spend time only counting pixels instead of enjoying 4K media? In a similar manner how many need to look at printed images using a magnifying glass?

[JohnAV]

Philips has an 88-inch 8K OLED TV – but you can't buy it yet - Tech Radar

Philips, which until now has been happy to finesse its top-notch 4K OLED panels, is now working on an 8K OLED set, which we can confirm we've seen in action, albeit incredibly briefly.

Revealed at a press event in Amsterdam, the Philips screen however isn't yet ready for the public – and as such, has a spec-sheet shrouded in mystery, no firm release date, nor even a hint of a final price.