Lord of the Rings Trilogy (Theatrical Versions) - April 6, 2010

[raygendreau]

Originally Posted by aiman04

PS3 Fat can't bitstream the lossless codecs, so what you're getting lossy DTS-ES Discrete is correct. In a 7.1 speaker setup, the receiver will automatically matrix 6.1 sources to 7.1. .

Yes re the bitstream. But, as I understand it, my receiver is controlled by the PS3 via HDMI. The DSP in the receiver is bypassed and the LPCM output is routed directly to the DAC in the receiver. DTS-HD MA Speaker Remapping adjusts the LPCM in the PS3 to match the speaker setup. You might want to see the DTS White Paper pdf accessible at DTS.com. By performing speaker remapping it replicates the studio master sound image. From DTS.com:

Speaker re-mapping
Currently, the consumer electronics industry has no “official” speaker layout for discrete 7.1 channel audio. The two most popular layouts involve placing two additional speakers in the 7.1 Standard or 7.1 Rear Surround configurations. However, movie and music creators can mix their surround audio into a number of different possible layouts (up to seven total). Some of the layouts are quite exotic (see the links to the right).


SO, what if a movie’s sound engineer mixed the audio with one type of layout, but your speaker system is set up differently? Don’t worry, you’re good. DTS-HD Master Audio and High Resolution Audio include an exclusive feature called Speaker Re-mapping. Sophisticated algorithms are used to electronically “reposition” speakers, so you get the best possible sound quality without having to physically re-arrange your speakers. All DTS-HD featured A/V receivers have the ability to re-map content mixed with up to seven different speaker layouts. All you have to do is plug in one of the two common layout types (see graph below) in your AV receiver’s setup menu, and DTS-HD Speaker Re-mapping does the rest.

Here is a AVR with Remapping capability http://www.soundsandcinema.com/cgi-b...ml?id=CxnmmuoH

[phansson]

Originally Posted by raygendreau

O.K. You have a BD of FOTR in. Try the other two discs TTT and ROTK to see if it is a disc issue.

Also, do you have the PS3 set to automatic in Sound Settings?

Also when you say 'processor' are you talking about the AVR display or the PS3 display whe you hit 'select' on the controller? With the PS3 set to LPCM you should see DTS-HD MA 6.1 with a variable bit rate of 3-6 Mbps and your downstream equipment (AVR) should show all surround speakers active.

Just out of curiosity which PS3 do you have, fat or slim?

I tried ROTK and it said 5.1 also.

I have my PS3 Slim set to "bitstream". My Oppo is set to "bitstream" also.

On the PS3, if I hit "select" it says DTS 5.1. If I set the PS3 to LPCM it says exactly like you said.

The thing that confuses me is why if both X men and LOTR are DTS HD MA 6.1, why would one work and the other one not?

Listen, I am not a newbie. I usually have all of this under control and I know I can just apply DPLx to the signal and get the rear channels. I just want to know why this is happening.

[Brandon]

Originally Posted by Witch King of Angmar

From wikipedia:



Tolkien refers to her as "the mightiest and fairest of all the Elves that remained in Middle-Earth" (after the death of Gil-Galad) and the "greatest of elven women".

I didn't realize Gil-Galad is actually in the FOTR film in the prologue.

[PeterTHX]

Originally Posted by Underworld54

Toy Story 1 and 2 show that they are 5.1 on the back of their cases.

They are "5.1 ES", so it's technically correct. Just like "2.0" surround will output 4 channels when decoded. Disney is scattershot about what they advertise. They've also labeled a few titles as 24-bit when they were really 16-bit.

Originally Posted by PUsokrJosh305

Ok, this is what I think about the DTS-HDMA situations. From what experiences I get from my reciever, DTS-HDMA audio will output to 7.1 no matter if it's 5.1, 6.1, or 7.1. Now it isn't "true" 7.1. In a 5.1 mix, it duplicates the audio from the left and right surround speakers to my surround back speackers, to create a theater like setting, because that's what theaters do, have dulpicate sound in some speakers

It's still not correct though, and not intended by the sound mixers.

I think DTS-HDMA has proven itself superior over Dolby-TruHD because it can do a lot more than TruHD.

Uh, no.
TrueHD is easier to decode. Backwards compatible with more devices with it's DD companion track. The only feature film encoded with 192kHz is TrueHD (Akira).
TrueHD also enables "Night Mode" for apartment dwellers, people with kids or parents who yell "turn it down", or smaller speakers that can't handle full-range. 7.1 TrueHD also contains a true 5.1 mix and 2.0 downmix for those types of speaker systems.

[PUsokrJosh305]

Then why does my Yamaha, when set to "straight," output a 5.1 track to 7.1 by taking the sound from the left and right surround and duplicating it to the surround back speakers? I mean, if it's on straight, then it's straight from the source. It's not manipulating it in any way, it's just doing what theaters in cities and towns do.

[phansson]

Originally Posted by PeterTHX

If you have them, try these titles on your PS3 and tell me what you get?

Up
A Bug's Life
Monsters Inc.
Toy Story
Toy Story 2
Wall*E
Bolt
Terminator 2: Judgement Day - Skynet Edition
Harry Potter and the Sorcerer's Stone - Ultimate Edition
Harry Potter and the Chamber of Secrets - Ultimate Edition

All should show "DTS-HD MA 6.1" on your PS3.

There may be others but that's what I have and personally tested.

PS: The Harry Potter Ultimates are another one that are 5.1 ES but labeled "6.1" on the packaging. Like LOTR they were Dolby EX theatrically.

Everything I tried (Up, Bolt, T2 and Wall-e) showed 5.1. I guess I am still just confused as to why X-men the last stand works but none of the others do (including LOTR).

[PeterTHX]

Originally Posted by PUsokrJosh305

Then why does my Yamaha, when set to "straight," output a 5.1 track to 7.1 by taking the sound from the left and right surround and duplicating it to the surround back speakers? I mean, if it's on straight, then it's straight from the source. It's not manipulating it in any way, it's just doing what theaters in cities and towns do.

When they are in a sound mixing studio they don't do that.

It's like that "expanded mono" mode that outputs the sound to all your channels. Is that really what they wanted?

True 7.1 has information encoded directly for those back channels.

[PUsokrJosh305]

Yes, but isn't the "home theater" suppose to represent an actual theater, just in the home. If one was to have a seating arrangement like a movie theater, then the whole duplicating thing works cause the seats in the back would get the same surround audio as the regular surround speakers. Yes, I agree. The studios wanted you to hear 5.1 audio and not 5.1 with duplicated speakers for 7.1. Yet, this is recreating what happens in a theater. The theaters get a 5.1 mix, but have duplicated sound put of the other speakers. I can't tell ya how many times I've read what settings I should put my reciever at, but I know that the "straight" setting is the only one that doesn't minipulate any sound. It plays the movie like it should be, just with added speaker sound to recreate a theater experience.

[raygendreau]

Originally Posted by phansson

I tried ROTK and it said 5.1 also.

I have my PS3 Slim set to "bitstream". My Oppo is set to "bitstream" also.

On the PS3, if I hit "select" it says DTS 5.1. If I set the PS3 to LPCM it says exactly like you said.

The thing that confuses me is why if both X men and LOTR are DTS HD MA 6.1, why would one work and the other one not?

Listen, I am not a newbie. I usually have all of this under control and I know I can just apply DPLx to the signal and get the rear channels. I just want to know why this is happening.

"On the PS3, if I hit "select" it says DTS 5.1. If I set the PS3 to LPCM it says exactly like you said."

Are you saying that with the PS3 set to LPCM you have all your speakers active with the LOTR discs and the PS3 display is DTS-HD MA 6.1?

[raygendreau]

Originally Posted by phansson

I tried ROTK and it said 5.1 also.

I have my PS3 Slim set to "bitstream". My Oppo is set to "bitstream" also.

On the PS3, if I hit "select" it says DTS 5.1. If I set the PS3 to LPCM it says exactly like you said.

The thing that confuses me is why if both X men and LOTR are DTS HD MA 6.1, why would one work and the other one not?

Listen, I am not a newbie. I usually have all of this under control and I know I can just apply DPLx to the signal and get the rear channels. I just want to know why this is happening.

You shouldn't have to do that. What I don't get is why, with the PS3 on LPCM the display is showing 5.1. That sounds like a problem with your LOTR disc(s) Maybe your set is part of a bad batch. You remember with the FOTR TE DVD they had a problem with the entire production. The box indicated it was Dolby Digital EX like the TTT and ROK DVDs, but they were just Dolby Digital 5.1.

[PeterTHX]

Originally Posted by PUsokrJosh305

Yes, but isn't the "home theater" suppose to represent an actual theater, just in the home. If one was to have a seating arrangement like a movie theater, then the whole duplicating thing works cause the seats in the back would get the same surround audio as the regular surround speakers. Yes, I agree. The studios wanted you to hear 5.1 audio and not 5.1 with duplicated speakers for 7.1. Yet, this is recreating what happens in a theater. The theaters get a 5.1 mix, but have duplicated sound put of the other speakers. I can't tell ya how many times I've read what settings I should put my reciever at, but I know that the "straight" setting is the only one that doesn't minipulate any sound. It plays the movie like it should be, just with added speaker sound to recreate a theater experience.

Well, what your Yamaha is doing is not what the great majority of home theater processors don't do (by default). You can't compare theater acoustics with the home either. Unless your home theater is several hundred square feet and has thousands of watts feeding an array of speakers the comparison is moot. When the sound mixers sit at their console for a 5.1 mix they aren't duplicating channels like that.

[jonmoz]

PeterTHX & raygendreau.

The Pioneer BDP-09FD did as you say onboard decode the "Dolby Tru Hd" audio codec from it's release and needed a firmware update to do the same with "Dts Master Audio".

This was not what i was saying as i was refering to the Pioneer's Hdmi bitstream out via its Hdmi,which from the players launch sent the raw "Dolby Tru Hd" and "Dts Master Audio" signal to a compatable reciever.So all the player is doing in effect is reading the disc and sending the audio codec to the reciever,it's not decoding anything.

When Onkyo launched their TX-SR875 and 905 recievers they both had "Dolby Tru Hd" and "Dts Master Audio" decoding via their Hdmi inputs at full resolution which was groundbreaking at the time for their pricepoint,the only issue at the time was the lack of Blu-ray players that could send them the "Dolby Tru Hd" and "Dts Master Audio" core data via their Hdmi bitstream outputs.

[PeterTHX]

Originally Posted by phansson

Everything I tried (Up, Bolt, T2 and Wall-e) showed 5.1. I guess I am still just confused as to why X-men the last stand works but none of the others do (including LOTR).

You're running the latest firmware (3.21)?

My PS3 is a launch 60GB with PS2 backwards compatibility and SACD playback (plus the multi-card reader). Of course, at launch it only recognized the core lossy DTS codec and not the HD-HR or HD-MA extensions.

I also manually set the HDMI output, checking everything for audio (including AAC), and of course it's set for PCM output.

So I put in, say, Wall*E, DISPLAY shows "DTS-HD MA 6.1 48kHz".
Display on my Onkyo shows "MCH PCM 7.1, fs 48kHz" (note that all 6.1 output is split between the back L & R channels).

[PeterTHX]

Originally Posted by jonmoz

When Onkyo launched their TX-SR875 and 905 recievers they both had "Dolby Tru Hd" and "Dts Master Audio" decoding via their Hdmi inputs at full resolution which was groundbreaking at the time for their pricepoint,the only issue at the time was the lack of Blu-ray players that could send them the "Dolby Tru Hd" and "Dts Master Audio" core data via their Hdmi bitstream outputs.

Yes, I bought my 905 and Panasonic BD30 at the same time.

[jonmoz]

Peter i had the TX-SR875 and was waiting very impatiently for the Panasonic BD-30 to be released,but was very pleased when it did.

[jonmoz]

Phansson & PUsokrjosh305

The reason X-men is different is that it's a true 6.1 Dts es audio soundtrack,The main confusion here is that Dts has two 6.1 es Master audio tracks.

The first of which is "Dts 6.1 es discrete" this is a true 6.1 audio format as it has seven individual seperate audio channels.

The second is "Dts 6.1 es matrix" this is not a true 6.1 audio format as it only has six individual seperate audio channels,it creates it's extra surround channel by taking sound from it's left and right surround channels and then reproducing this as the seventh audio channel.

So when your reviever or player as mine does says the Lord of the rings track is 5.1 it's not that far from the truth.

The main thing to look out for is when your player is sending the 5.1 bitstream out to your reciever it's at the correct bitrate,it should be at 3/6 Mbps not the fixed base codec of 1.5 Mbps.

As long as your player is sending the full resolution 3/6 Mbps 5.1 Dts master audio codec to your reciever all you need to do is use your recievers post processing to expand the sound to 6.1 or 7.1 deopending on your system,as this is hardly any different in letting Dts matrix it for you at the studio.

The Dts 6.1 es matrix audio track is pretty much the same as the Dolby 5.1 ex track,in that they both create the extra surround channel in pretty much the same way,if Dts labeled the track as 5.1 es matrix as they should there would be much less confusion.

The main reason a lot of reciever manufacturers do not decode the Dts 6.1 es matrix signal is cost,as why bump up the price of a reciever when your own post processing will do the same job,of course they will handle the true Dts 6.1 es discrete audio codecs as they are genuine 6.1 tracks,so no post processing is needed to create all seven audio channels.

[jonmoz]

Phansson here is a strange thing regarding the Ps3's Hdmi audio output.

I have the Ps3 fat 80gb console and when i play The lord of the rings on it and have the Hdmi setting to "bitstream" the dispaly is 5.1 at 1.5 Mbps,but when i go back into the settings an set the Hdmi to "Lpcm" the display is 6.1 at a varible bitrate of 3/6 Mbps.

I have the latest firmware installed i can only assume later versions of the console do not do this.

[Underworld54]

Originally Posted by jonmoz

Phansson here is a strange thing regarding the Ps3's Hdmi audio output.

I have the Ps3 fat 80gb console and when i play The lord of the rings on it and have the Hdmi setting to "bitstream" the dispaly is 5.1 at 1.5 Mbps,but when i go back into the settings an set the Hdmi to "Lpcm" the display is 6.1 at a varible bitrate of 3/6 Mbps.

I have the latest firmware installed i can only assume later versions of the console do not do this.

Is that just for the PS3 or do other Sony standalone players do this? Also how do you check the bitrate during playback???

[Joe Cain]

Originally Posted by jonmoz

Phansson here is a strange thing regarding the Ps3's Hdmi audio output.

I have the Ps3 fat 80gb console and when i play The lord of the rings on it and have the Hdmi setting to "bitstream" the dispaly is 5.1 at 1.5 Mbps,but when i go back into the settings an set the Hdmi to "Lpcm" the display is 6.1 at a varible bitrate of 3/6 Mbps.

I have the latest firmware installed i can only assume later versions of the console do not do this.

The PS3---at least the old "fat" models---*can't bitstream* the lossless codecs; the only way to get lossless audio is to set the output to LPCM. With the output set on bitstream, the lossy 1.5 Mbps DTS track is what you'll get.

[borninusa]

I dont know if anyone has seen this....but here is Peter J talking LOTR's bluray disappointment

http://filmonic.com/peter-jackson-ta...pointment-2012