8K discussion thread

[Penton-Man]

John, with regards to the industry not leaping into 8k acquisition and delivery for movies, I really don’t think content creators as a whole needed any more discouraging by the Zink study as people (outside of Japan) were already of that mindset to begin with. Since you directly followed Lee’s post about the Olympics, I believe if the industry, investigators like Zink et al., really wanted to do something productive in terms of enlightening people as to worthwhile/or not high res content creation and delivery they should do a 4K @ 120 fps comparison vs. an 8K @ 120 fps. I was informed that the entire torch relay will be covered live in 4K, using a mobile IP network, and streamed online globally.

Baring that, it might also be interesting to see offered at the grass roots level like Robert’s shootout fare if the motion compensated frame interpolation has improved with the processing in the guts of 8k TVs vs. that of 4k TVs for fast action sports like the Olympics until HFR broadcast pipelines are developed.

[Penton-Man]

Originally Posted by Lee A Stewart

NHK to cover Olympics in 8K

Japan’s public broadcaster NHK says it will provide widespread coverage of the Tokyo Olympic Games and the Paralympics in 8K.....

My understanding is that the Olympics (if on, in whatever form of attendance - https://forum.blu-ray.com/showthread...r#post17393293 ) will have an integrated 2K/4K international signal.

[JohnAV]

Originally Posted by Penton-Man

John, with regards to the industry not leaping into 8k acquisition and delivery for movies, I really don’t think content creators as a whole needed any more discouraging by the Zink study as people (outside of Japan) were already of that mindset to begin with. Since you directly followed Lee’s post about the Olympics, I believe if the industry, investigators like Zink et al., really wanted to do something productive in terms of enlightening people as to worthwhile/or not high res content creation and delivery they should do a 4K @ 120 fps comparison vs. an 8K @ 120 fps. I was informed that the entire torch relay will be covered live in 4K, using a mobile IP network, and streamed online globally.

Baring that, it might also be interesting to see offered at the grass roots level like Robert’s shootout fare if the motion compensated frame interpolation has improved with the processing in the guts of 8k TVs vs. that of 4k TVs for fast action sports like the Olympics until HFR broadcast pipelines are developed.

Look I just happen to see that online when searching under the topic and felt it was worthy to posting to the 8k topic irregardless of Lee's NHK Olympic broadcasts earlier which have been so widely covered in advance.

There are obvious similarities to what Robert was doing with his grass roots shootout, and that additional information will help support consensus as you stated. This is a paragraph from the study that Robert could focus on.

One thing the study didn’t address is whether the display technology has any effect on the ability to discern 8K. Would the results be any different if the display were an 8K LCD TV rather than an OLED? I suspect not, but it would require a different study to determine objectively.

[Penton-Man]

Originally Posted by JohnAV

Look I just happen to see that online when searching under the topic and felt it was worthy to posting to the 8k topic irregardless of Lee's NHK Olympic broadcasts earlier which have been so widely covered in advance.

Sorry, my mistake, I thought you had been keeping up with the critiquing of the Zink study here – https://forum.blu-ray.com/showthread...n#post17405553
(which actually went on in prior pages with input by several others too quoting the Techhive report x2)
and so were then moving on to affiliating the conclusions of the study to the worthiness/….or not of the 8k OBS/NHK co-production for the Olympics seeing yours and Lee’s posts back-to-back.

No offense intended.

[PaulGo]

This 8K TV is amazing!

The world's highest-resolution holographic display

https://www.cnet.com/videos/the-worl...aphic-display/

[Auditor55]

Originally Posted by JohnAV

8K vs 4K TVs: Double-blind study by Warner Bros. et al reveals most consumers can’t tell the difference - Techhive - Scott Wilkinson - 2/28/20



See the article for more details.

The scientific world knew this all along. Marketers, consumerist and enthusiasts have a hard time accepting those facts because they are always looking for away to sell us something that offer no real benefit (point of diminishing returns) to fatten their pockets. While some enthusiasts always need to be one step of ahead of everyone else by trying to justify 8K. 8K is the video equivalent to 24bit/192 khz audio claims. DBT audio comparison have been put the hyperbolic claims of high-res audio to rest, save for few diehard audiophiles that refuse to accept science.

I hope this study will put the useless 8K hype to rest.

[Leshita]

All I need is 8K physical media as the endgame of my collection. In the future I will go with streaming and 8K discs (assuming they even make it to the market) for films I must absolutely have the best quality version of.

Even if I cannot tell the difference, I still want it as the endgame.

[Penton-Man]

Originally Posted by Auditor55

The scientific world knew this all along. Marketers, consumerist and enthusiasts have a hard time accepting those facts because they are always looking for away to sell us something that offer no real benefit (point of diminishing returns) to fatten their pockets.

You’re being asked by a Vice President (in order to meet his 2 or 3 year development plan for the company) to upgrade your entire pipeline to be fully 8K capable and fast at your movie studio?
Or you’re being pressured by an SGO (https://www.sgo.es/category/mistika-ultima/) rep to purchase a Mistika Ultima bundle?
Or, you work at a VFX house and are not at all looking forward to dealing with 8K plates and time constraints which will mean even longer hours and less pay unless it’s outsourced to India, etc.

Originally Posted by Auditor55

I hope this study will put the useless 8K hype to rest.

Not at all useless hype with regards to producing all content because it’s not only about detail. For instance, with soccer the way it is shot, this quality (seeing more in terms of picture real estate) as was talked about back in 2013 regarding 4K acquisition and delivery -
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=pgtVIU73poU#t=2m17s
can be extrapolated out from 4K to 8K productions (more coverage) too as to benefit

Which had proof of concept a year later at the World Cup in Brazil where many at one of those public fan fests on the beach experienced and recounted this –

I have a friend who attended the FIFA World Cup in Brazil this past summer where he and others (public viewing) watched a match on two 80-ish sized 4K TVs which were set up close to each other. One received the 4K feed whereas the other received the local Globus HD broadcast feed.

The 4K broadcast showed much more picture real estate than the HD broadcast

8k capture and delivery would be attractive in terms of clarity for soccer if acquired in at least 120 fps and delivered at 120 fps. Or if that high of HFR production were not possible, then perhaps if (which remains to be proven) the motion estimation engine in some 8k TVs has become superior to that in 4k TVs with mitigating 60fps motion blur from an 8k/60 fps feed of which I am skeptical, but open minded about.

[slimdude]

It seems like 8K is dead already because nobody is talking about it and not showing any interests! You don't see any commercials on TV, no articles in the newpapers, magazines promoting 8K TVs or nothing. Everybody is still buying 4K TVs, and even thinking about 8K. It's an extremely niche technology.

[Staying Salty]

Originally Posted by slimdude

It seems like 8K is dead already because nobody is talking about it and showing any interests! You don't see any commercials on TV, no articles in the newpapers, magazines promoting 8K TVs or nothing. Everybody is still buying 4K TVs, and even thinking about 8K. It's an extremely niche technology.

Originally Posted by Staying Salty

My question is, if they build it, will we come?

With the LG OLED 48" 4K having nearly the same pixel density or DPI as a 98" 8K, the 48" is ideal for my needs.

[Lee A Stewart]

Originally Posted by slimdude

It seems like 8K is dead already because nobody is talking about it and showing any interests! You don't see any commercials on TV, no articles in the newpapers, magazines promoting 8K TVs or nothing. Everybody is still buying 4K TVs, and even thinking about 8K. It's an extremely niche technology.

Not niche . . . emerging.

They have been showing 8K TVs at events like CES for the last 10 years. Then when the profit margins went away on 4K TVs they finally decided to release 8K TVs to gain back those profit margins. That was last year. They know due to the very high prices that sales will be minuscule at best. The only advertising done for the most part is "word of mouth."

8K has some hurdles to get over. When we went from SD to HD, not only did we get a higher resolution, we also got a wider aspect ratio. And we got a wider color gamut (Rec. 709). Then we went to UHD 4K and again we got more resolution. And we also got HDR with it's 10 bit WCG. Now we see UHD 8K and all we are getting is more resolution. Keep in mind that when UHD 4K TVs first came out, all we got was the increase in resolution. HDR/WCG was added after the intro of 4K TVs.

TV manufacturers like to work with a single "model." That's why they no longer make HDTVs. Now it's all 4K TVs with a smattering of 8K TVs from a few high end TV manufacturers.

Let's see how 8K as a format grows over the next 2 years.

[JohnAV]

Originally Posted by Auditor55

I hope this study will put the useless 8K hype to rest.

It doesn't because its already been shown with 8K displays that different panels don't offer the same contrast modulation. Example Samsung reducing contrast modulation accuracy to improve viewing from a angle. You clearly saw the example to be able to read a newspaper in 8K resolution was somewhat blurry on Samsung displays.

This example is not meant to show that either is the best high resolution accuracy TV vendors can provide, just pointing out that there are other instances of looking at photographic resolution on a unnatural display that is far from perfect as it could be compared to the same view if you were there.

Penton Man is clearly concerned about "8k capture and delivery would be attractive in terms of clarity". Well as someone that has seen the delivery of content reproduction on displays improve with time, can anyone here say that 8K display are absolutely lifelike realism? There is always something that is off about looking at any display isn't there. Do you honestly think that all camera that are capturing what being viewed are of the same accuracy? Give it time.

[JohnAV]

Originally Posted by slimdude

It seems like 8K is dead already because nobody is talking about it and showing any interests!

That is another misguided statement, even though you are comparing this to 4K, a lot of the 8K ecosystem that represents the capture to the reproduction is being worked on.

Did you even know that we had two decades of content being captured at 4K resolution before you had 4K displays? See 20 Years of Movie Titles were filmed in 4K and nobody bothered to save them - 4K.com 9/24/2014

Eastman Kodak released some of the first film scanners that were able to scan at 4096 x 2160 resolution all the way back in 1992 and the first movie to be processed in 4K was actually Snow White and the Seven Dwarfs all the way back in 1993. The original film as digitized to 4K, processed, cleaned up and then downgraded back to a much smaller digital resolution that fit the technology of the time and the original 4K scan was simply erased.

Sony showed the first 4K consumer TV at IFA 2012. Everything takes years to manifest itself into something that this marketplace finds useful. Your comment just remind me of similar views with the first 4K opinions. I could certainly remember 4K is dead because nobody need it. Then what happened.

[Penton-Man]

Originally Posted by JohnAV

Penton Man is clearly concerned about "8k capture and delivery would be attractive in terms of clarity".

In regards to sports like coverage of soccer players running, and especially demanding to 8k lenses, would be the players and camera (like on the touchline tracking on a rail or in a mobile cart) both moving at the same time. The science of it all - https://forum.blu-ray.com/showthread...n#post17182006

[Canada]

The only way I would go 8K is if I won the lottery and could buy a big enough home to allow me to get a projector. The only other way I am going 8K is if my current 4K TV breaks and everyone is on to 8K TV's.

[gkolb]

Originally Posted by Canada

The only way I would go 8K is if I won the lottery and could buy a big enough home to allow me to get a projector. The only other way I am going 8K is if my current 4K TV breaks and everyone is on to 8K TV's.

The days of 8K tellies being the standard isn't too far away.

Soon (next 2 years most likely) 4K displays will be the low-end, 8K displays will take the mid-level and premium-level niches. This has already been expounded on in this very thread.

Note: and HD sets will be ultra-low or non-existent at retail.

[Geoff D]

Originally Posted by JohnAV

That is another misguided statement, even though you are comparing this to 4K, a lot of the 8K ecosystem that represents the capture to the reproduction is being worked on.

Did you even know that we had two decades of content being captured at 4K resolution before you had 4K displays? See 20 Years of Movie Titles were filmed in 4K and nobody bothered to save them - 4K.com 9/24/2014

Sony showed the first 4K consumer TV at IFA 2012. Everything takes years to manifest itself into something that this marketplace finds useful. Your comment just remind me of similar views with the first 4K opinions. I could certainly remember 4K is dead because nobody need it. Then what happened.

You make a fair point but that old article would be the last thing I'd use to actually support it as the writer is chronically misguided and plain uninformed, like "super 35mm film" giving resolution that goes "way beyond 4K and into 8K". Well, no, it doesn't, and studies have repeatedly proved this. With the slowest stock drenched in light using the best glass on a static test pattern then yeah, sure, you'd get close enough to 4K resolution from a super-sampled scan at 6K or 8K, and if you were to scan it at 10K or 16K (or slap some Lowry detail enhancement processing on it) for an 8K master then you might even squeak some >4K detail out if it. But real world content shot 35mm on them "chemical film reels" at 24p with a regulation 180-degree shutter? Nope.

And besides, why is matey lamenting that the 4K scans were junked for whatever movie? The OG negative or other pre-print materials are still around for most movies that were digitally restored during that "20 year" period so they can just be scanned again (Warners have digitally restored Wizard of Oz in 4K at least three times already by my count), and a datacine from 2020 is going to kick the ass of one from 1992.

[Penton-Man]

Originally Posted by Canada

The only way

Oh Canada….I like your avatar. Little inside info, the aviators in the tight formation around Maverick pictured in your avatar are fleet replacement squadron (aka rags - https://forum.blu-ray.com/showthread...s#post16873492 ) instructors.

[nick4Knight]

Originally Posted by Geoff D

...why is matey lamenting that the 4K scans were junked for whatever movie? The OG negative or other pre-print materials are still around for most movies that were digitally restored during that "20 year" period so they can just be scanned again (Warners have digitally restored Wizard of Oz in 4K at least three times already by my count), and a datacine from 2020 is going to kick the ass of one from 1992.

This is what I was gonna say! Plus the reason they junked all the data is because that was at a time when storing such releases probably would have cost, oh idk, millions of dollars in computer archival per title? Sounds like a giant waste, when as you say, it's better to have a scan done currently than relying on ancient 4K scans. We even see late noughties era 4K scans being done again for UHD's HDR specification (likely the limited baked in range issue been mused about lately) and better up to date standards.

[Lee A Stewart]

Global 8K TV shipments to surge in 2020

Global shipments of 8K TVs are expected to surge to two million units in 2020 from 430,000 units shipped a year earlier, driven by improving cost structure and 5G environments, as well as TV brands' campaign efforts, according to industry observers.