8K discussion thread

[Lee A Stewart]

It seems to me that people lose sight of the fact that going from 4K to 8K is a massive change. 8MB per frame versus 32 MB. That's a 400% increase. The newest codex only gives a 50% max improvement over the existing codex.

Hollywood will never give consumers 4:4:4 chroma subsampling rate. Nor will they go to 4:2:2 because 99% of all people will see no change. Just like I strongly doubt they will give us 12 bit. Those are the specs used for DCI. Hollywood wants a strict difference between professional and consumer grades.

The Merry-Go-Round has stopped at 4K. To think other wise is to ignore the above.

[Anthony P]

Originally Posted by Lee A Stewart

It seems to me that people lose sight of the fact that going from 4K to 8K is a massive change. 8MB per frame versus 32 MB. That's a 400% increase. The newest codex only gives a 50% max improvement over the existing codex.

even though I think what you meant is clear, The mathematician in me could not help but cringe. What you should actually say is 300% increase since it is X+300%X=400%X

that is true for uncompressed. But compression is not linear. 4x the pixels does not mean 4x the file size/BW needed. The smaller the pixels the more you can block without adding as much compression artifacts and the compression artifacts will be smaller

Hollywood will never give consumers 4:4:4 chroma subsampling rate. Nor will they go to 4:2:2 because 99% of all people will see no change. Just like I strongly doubt they will give us 12 bit. Those are the specs used for DCI. Hollywood wants a strict difference between professional and consumer grades.

never said we will get 4:4:4 or 4:2:2 what I said is 4:2:0 8k has the same chroma resolution as 4:4:4 4k, if 8k distributions the same was true for 4:2:0 4k vs 4:4:4 1080p

The Merry-Go-Round has stopped at 4K. To think other wise is to ignore the above.

I don't know if the above is correct and if that means we won't get 8k. And if it does it is up to every person to decide how to play it. But I like to think that Hollywood likes the Merry-Go-Round if they stopped with VHS there are many films I would have not re-bought on DVD then BD and then UHD BD. I would have spent that 20$ 30 years ago for the film and they would have gotten any more money from me. Re-releasing a film is a lot cheaper and easier compared to making a new film. And I think assuming that studios (if given the chance) will jump at the chance of getting people to re-buy (now will they get that chance that is a different story).

[Lee A Stewart]

Originally Posted by Anthony P

I don't know if the above is correct and if that means we won't get 8k. And if it does it is up to every person to decide how to play it. But I like to think that Hollywood likes the Merry-Go-Round if they stopped with VHS there are many films I would have not re-bought on DVD then BD and then UHD BD. I would have spent that 20$ 30 years ago for the film and they would have gotten any more money from me. Re-releasing a film is a lot cheaper and easier compared to making a new film. And I think assuming that studios (if given the chance) will jump at the chance of getting people to re-buy (now will they get that chance that is a different story).

Hollywood sees the bare truth. People have stopped buying movies. That heyday is over. Oh sure - they will support the collectors - just like they did for LD owners. But it will never be the huge revenue streams that Hollywood once enjoyed from DVD.

So what is the average UHD-BD sales numbers? How many copies are being sold? Not the handful of blockbuster titles like The Batman. The titles that have been released a half a dozen times previously on all the different formats.

As Geoff said . . . the law of diminishing returns. Each format has sold less than the previous format DVD > BD > UHD-BD

[LordoftheRings]

Maybe CD will come back?
Maybe Kodack film and Fujifilm will come back?
Maybe 35mm cameras with celluloid film will come back?
Maybe 3D ...

It's a transitional phase, maybe?

[sapiendut]

CD never left, 35mm cameras and film never left, 3D never left. Diminished, but nothing can “come back” when they never left.

[blackprojection]

Originally Posted by LordoftheRings

Maybe CD will come back?
Maybe Kodack film and Fujifilm will come back?
Maybe 35mm cameras with celluloid film will come back?
Maybe 3D ...

It's a transitional phase, maybe?

CD sales increased lately for the first time after many years. Vinyl is having a revival phase since 5-10 years. More vinyl is pressed nowadays than anytime in the past century.

when it comes to 8K it is highly unlikely to me that is going to go mainstream. there is barely content in 8K and rarely films get 6K remaster nowadays. many studios even stick to 2K remasters instead of 4K. and 4K remasters and 4K releases are moving slow imo.

[Geoff D]

The nerd thing wasn't intended as a pejorative, I'm something of a nerd myself. But as far as upgrades go then the idea of an 8K of x movie - even a 65mm classic - doesn't excite me as much as it once would've. Everyone has their own threshold for what's good enough as you say, but when we have to scrabble around for such incremental things to differentiate 8K then that speaks for itself. And as for in-home 8K upscaling, don't all the 8K sets tout their super duper AI upscaling abilities these days? So I don't think you have to worry about some nearest neighbour type deal there.

Heck, I'd be more interested in 8K if the quality of compression wasn't going down the gurgler as it is with 4K UHD, it's so spotty at the moment and I can't see how 8K breaks free from that. Decent encoding is like the very last thing on the minds of the content providers and fookin hell it drives me up the wall.

[nick4Knight]

Originally Posted by Lee A Stewart

It seems to me that people lose sight of the fact that going from 4K to 8K is a massive change. 8MB per frame versus 32 MB. That's a 400% increase. The newest codex only gives a 50% max improvement over the existing codex.

Hollywood will never give consumers 4:4:4 chroma subsampling rate. Nor will they go to 4:2:2 because 99% of all people will see no change. Just like I strongly doubt they will give us 12 bit. Those are the specs used for DCI. Hollywood wants a strict difference between professional and consumer grades.

I think they will deliver us 12-bit display panels in time. It might be 10 years, but eventually. All in 4K resolution. Then DV-ready content can be delivered 'natively'.

Thus, they can sell us the movies again. It will just be 12-bit DV, not just a resolution bump like 8K and sacrificing picture quality by needing data for pixels vs for accuracy. And if that is paired with better bitrates and compression standards? It should be the last you'd ever want for modern wall displays.

Think that the disconnect between what you're saying about current and past stuff and what I'm suggesting about a future paradigm is physical media vs. digital. There won't be disc content at 12 bit or at 4:4:4. In that you're corrent, imo.

Because it will be digital.

[sapiendut]

The data on the disc is not digital? I’m confused now.

[Geoff D]

Originally Posted by nick4Knight

I think they will deliver us 12-bit display panels in time. It might be 10 years, but eventually. All in 4K resolution. Then DV-ready content can be delivered 'natively'.

Thus, they can sell us the movies again. It will just be 12-bit DV, not just a resolution bump like 8K and sacrificing picture quality by needing data for pixels vs for accuracy. And if that is paired with better bitrates and compression standards? It should be the last you'd ever want for modern wall displays.

Think that the disconnect between what you're saying about current and past stuff and what I'm suggesting about a future paradigm is physical media vs. digital. There won't be disc content at 12 bit or at 4:4:4. In that you're corrent, imo.

Because it will be digital.

Personally I think a 12-bit display is an even bigger waste of time than 8K. Again, it’s not that there wouldn’t be some fractionally incremental benefit, but that’s just it: it’s not going to transform the viewing experience. There comes a point where more bits, more Ks, more chroma etc is simply lost on anything but the biggest and most high end screen you could imagine (and even then, those with the deepest pockets tend to be the least discerning about such minutiae, “mansion comfortable” forums commentators aside) and it’s why I insist that HDR is the single biggest upgrade I’ve seen in 30 years of home video.

[Panson]

What will be will be. I'm just going to relax.

[LordoftheRings]

Originally Posted by sapiendut

CD never left, 35mm cameras and film never left, 3D never left. Diminished, but nothing can “come back” when they never left.

The Terminator came back ...

[Dragun]

Originally Posted by sapiendut

The data on the disc is not digital? I’m confused now.

"Digital" is used to mean streaming or file-based, rather than disc-based, even though the discs contain digital media. The stickler in me hates that usage, but it is what it is.

[Robert Zohn]

Sony has the very first allocation/shipment of the new 2020 Z9K 8K Master Series MiniLED HD TVs picked and palletized for delivery to our store. If all goes as scheduled we'll receive the shipment this Thursday or no later than Friday.

I scheduled a YouTube video of the unboxing, set-up and 1st impressions for this Saturday, but I'll get back here sooner with some pictures when the Z9K delivery arrives.

[MichaelR]

Originally Posted by BluLobsta

Just found the A/V processor/amplifier combo that I want when the switch to 8K comes. We all know it's coming soon, right? About $18K for the pair. Probably another $15K for the Sony Bravia Z9K TV. Gotta start saving my pennies!

McIntosh MX123

McIntosh MC257

[Show spoiler]

Originally Posted by sapiendut

That processor is a Denon with McIntosh body. I can’t believe people fall for that.

Originally Posted by BluLobsta

I fall for anything in a cheap skirt I don't think McIntosh is part of Sound United. It's all handmade stuff out of Binghamton, NY. Impeccable reputation and quality. Marantz and Denon are part of Sound United, though. So my Marantz could be a repackaged Denon? Sacrilege! I condemn this outrage!

Originally Posted by mkozlows

Given how terrible high-end boutique companies are with modern A/V processors and receivers, "basically just a Marantz/Denon" is probably actually a best-case outcome that will make it more reliable than the alternative.

I realize the exchange above is several months old, but I wanted to add a belated note.

As a regretful owner of the McIntosh MX123, I can confirm that it's based on Denon tech, because, among other things, the setup menu is identical. But Mac has tinkered with Denon's architecture in various ways, starting with the obvious one of separating the A/V processing from any amplification circuitry. They've added better DACs and balanced outputs. Most importantly, they're using their own firmware, and here's where the problem lies -- or, at least, the problem I've encountered.

The MX123 can't accurately decode Dolby TrueHD 5.1. That sound format is so rare these days that it took me two years of owning the thing before I hit this error. It happened with "The Godfather" 4K discs. At random intervals, the thing just starts clicking, sometimes drowning out the soundtrack. For GF 1 & 2, I can switch to the Dolby Digital mono tracks, but with GF 3 (in any version), I'm out of luck.

Mac's tech support is awful, despite the hands-on involvement of the dealer who sold me the unit (and is a huge promoter of Mac products). Their "solution" is to set the player to decode the TrueHD and feed the MX123 the decoded PCM 5.1. Are they kidding??? Is this 2006, when many of us didn't yet have processors or receivers that couldn't handle TrueHD? Or is it 2022, when the chip sets are a standard part of every entry level receiver?

I've written a scatching indictment to Mac, but even my dealer (who is appalled at their lousy support) doesn't think they'll do anything to fix their mistake. And who knows what other screw-ups I'll stumble across in the years to come? Mac's A/V processors may have a pretty face, but behind it lies substandard gear. Stick to the amps. Amps are the only thing they know.

[Nocheduro]

Originally Posted by Geoff D

I insist that HDR is the single biggest upgrade I’ve seen in 30 years of home video.

Since I’ve upgraded my TV I see what you mean about HDR. But don’t you think the jump from 480i to 1080P was tremendous as well? For me it was a revelation. 1080P to 4K not so much due to diminishing returns, etc.

[Geoff D]

Originally Posted by Nocheduro

Since I’ve upgraded my TV I see what you mean about HDR. But don’t you think the jump from 480i to 1080P was tremendous as well? For me it was a revelation. 1080P to 4K not so much due to diminishing returns, etc.

It was big, but TBH the change from composhite 480i on LaserDisc to component 480i for DVD was even bigger to my eyes. HD was just an extension to that so it didn’t wow me like it did some. Even in that jump from DVD to HD there were diminishing returns as a lot of DVD era masters were being repurposed (and still are in some cases!) and didn’t offer much in the way of improvement apart from superior chroma resolution and betterer compression as the bit depth/gamut/range was virtually identical from DVD to HD (BT.601 and BT.709 being almost interchangeable). Gee, that sounds familiar!

So yeah, in terms of the difference made to the actual source content and how it was being interpreted then HDR is still the standout for me, and by quite some distance.

[Waboman]

Originally Posted by Geoff D

It was big, but TBH the change from composhite 480i on LaserDisc to component 480i for DVD was even bigger to my eyes. HD was just an extension to that so it didn’t wow me like it did some. Even in that jump from DVD to HD there were diminishing returns as a lot of DVD era masters were being repurposed (and still are in some cases!) and didn’t offer much in the way of improvement apart from superior chroma resolution and betterer compression as the bit depth/gamut/range was virtually identical from DVD to HD (BT.601 and BT.709 being almost interchangeable). Gee, that sounds familiar!

So yeah, in terms of the difference made to the actual source content and how it was being interpreted then HDR is still the standout for me, and by quite some distance.

Did you take delivery of your new 85Z9J 8K set?

[Geoff D]

Originally Posted by Waboman

Did you take delivery of your new 85Z9J 8K set?

No. There will be no Z9J in this dojo.

[Waboman]

Originally Posted by Geoff D

No. There will be no Z9J in this dojo.

No J? Have you changed to the Z9K? Hey, hey. What do you say? I’ll have a burger cooked by Bobby Flay. Okay.