8K discussion thread

[Brian81]

Originally Posted by blackprojection

CD sales increased lately for the first time after many years. Vinyl is having a revival phase since 5-10 years. More vinyl is pressed nowadays than anytime in the past century.

when it comes to 8K it is highly unlikely to me that is going to go mainstream. there is barely content in 8K and rarely films get 6K remaster nowadays. many studios even stick to 2K remasters instead of 4K. and 4K remasters and 4K releases are moving slow imo.

where are the numbers of more vinyl pressed than any time in the past century? A new release chart topper might sell 5,000 copies. It is the reason you have so many bands who are peaking higher in the charts than they did in their commercial prime decades ago. Copies purchased is a fraction of decades past. Vinyl sales may have increased by 500% but over a thousand copies that's only six thousand.

[Brian81]

Originally Posted by sapiendut

The data on the disc is not digital? I’m confused now.

They mean in a physical tangible form that you can purchase and is contained on a form of media you can hold in your hand and transfer, vs files you download to your own device.

[Brian81]

Originally Posted by MichaelR

I realize the exchange above is several months old, but I wanted to add a belated note.

As a regretful owner of the McIntosh MX123, I can confirm that it's based on Denon tech, because, among other things, the setup menu is identical. But Mac has tinkered with Denon's architecture in various ways, starting with the obvious one of separating the A/V processing from any amplification circuitry. They've added better DACs and balanced outputs. Most importantly, they're using their own firmware, and here's where the problem lies -- or, at least, the problem I've encountered.

The MX123 can't accurately decode Dolby TrueHD 5.1. That sound format is so rare these days that it took me two years of owning the thing before I hit this error. It happened with "The Godfather" 4K discs. At random intervals, the thing just starts clicking, sometimes drowning out the soundtrack. For GF 1 & 2, I can switch to the Dolby Digital mono tracks, but with GF 3 (in any version), I'm out of luck.

Mac's tech support is awful, despite the hands-on involvement of the dealer who sold me the unit (and is a huge promoter of Mac products). Their "solution" is to set the player to decode the TrueHD and feed the MX123 the decoded PCM 5.1. Are they kidding??? Is this 2006, when many of us didn't yet have processors or receivers that couldn't handle TrueHD? Or is it 2022, when the chip sets are a standard part of every entry level receiver?

I've written a scatching indictment to Mac, but even my dealer (who is appalled at their lousy support) doesn't think they'll do anything to fix their mistake. And who knows what other screw-ups I'll stumble across in the years to come? Mac's A/V processors may have a pretty face, but behind it lies substandard gear. Stick to the amps. Amps are the only thing they know.

The big companies unfortunately are better on the processing front compared to the boutiques, all other things equal. I was following Emotiva for several years and eyeing the RMC-1. It has so far been more glitchy than even bargain units. I gave up waiting for fixes.

[blackprojection]

Originally Posted by Brian81

where are the numbers of more vinyl pressed than any time in the past century? A new release chart topper might sell 5,000 copies. It is the reason you have so many bands who are peaking higher in the charts than they did in their commercial prime decades ago. Copies purchased is a fraction of decades past. Vinyl sales may have increased by 500% but over a thousand copies that's only six thousand.

It is not the amount pressed per album. Nowadays there are many more artists releasing albums on vinyl. Plus majors repress their back catalogues remastered. All that accumulates. Pressing plant books are full since years. Labels and artist have to wait longer to get their stuff pressed and delivered.

[Brian81]

Originally Posted by blackprojection

It is not the amount pressed per album. Nowadays there are many more artists releasing albums on vinyl. Plus majors repress their back catalogues remastered. All that accumulates. Pressing plant books are full since years. Labels and artist have to wait longer to get their stuff pressed and delivered.

Could that be just fewer plants? Every pressing plant for optical discs is shut down in USA so the one in Mexico gets everything and titles regularly get delayed. That doesn't mean optical discs are more in demand now than twenty years ago.

[PeterTHX]

Originally Posted by MichaelR

The MX123 can't accurately decode Dolby TrueHD 5.1. That sound format is so rare these days that it took me two years of owning the thing before I hit this error.

Just 5.1 and not 7.1 (which is the base layer for everything Dolby Atmos on disc)?

There's also several new Paramount titles in the past couple years using TrueHD 5.1

[MichaelR]

Originally Posted by PeterTHX

Just 5.1 and not 7.1 (which is the base layer for everything Dolby Atmos on disc)?

I have looked through my collection, but there are no 7.1 titles to test. However, I have numerous Atmos titles, all of which have played without error. Therein lies a puzzle, but at least it eliminates basic hardware and wiring issues.

There's also several new Paramount titles in the past couple years using TrueHD 5.1

So I’ve noticed. The GF 4K set is among them. They are literally the first TrueHD 5.1 discs I’ve played on this particular system in the two years I’ve owned it. Otherwise, it’s been Atmos, DTS MA or DTS:X.

[Panson]

Originally Posted by Brian81

Could that be just fewer plants? Every pressing plant for optical discs is shut down in USA so the one in Mexico gets everything and titles regularly get delayed. That doesn't mean optical discs are more in demand now than twenty years ago.

The largest disc replication company Technicolor DVD Services (Mexico, Australia, Poland plants) recently announced intention to boost their vinyl replication. Things don't sound as optimistic for video discs.

Related:

https://forum.blu-ray.com/showthread...ervices&page=2

[Geoff D]

Originally Posted by Panson

The largest disc replication company Technicolor DVD Services (Mexico, Australia, Poland plants) recently announced intention to boost their vinyl replication. Things don't sound as optimistic for video discs.

Related:

https://forum.blu-ray.com/showthread...ervices&page=2

That same article literally mentions a "rebound" for video disc replication though. Not something that will ultimately change the outcome for video disc, but somehow somewhere there's gonna be a plant open for a while yet.

[Panson]

Originally Posted by Geoff D

That same article literally mentions a "rebound" for video disc replication though. Not something that will ultimately change the outcome for video disc, but somehow somewhere there's gonna be a plant open for a while yet.

Their newer development with "Vantiva" (link) sounds more positive for video discs. We'll just have to wait and see.

https://hdguru.com/technicolor-looks...vd-operations/

[PeterTHX]

Originally Posted by MichaelR

I have looked through my collection, but there are no 7.1 titles to test. However, I have numerous Atmos titles, all of which have played without error. Therein lies a puzzle, but at least it eliminates basic hardware and wiring issues.

Keep in mind the base layer of any Dolby Atmos track is a Dolby TrueHD 7.1 track.

So I’ve noticed. The GF 4K set is among them. They are literally the first TrueHD 5.1 discs I’ve played on this particular system in the two years I’ve owned it. Otherwise, it’s been Atmos, DTS MA or DTS:X.

Bizarre it'll have issues with 5.1 but not 7.1 TrueHD.

[MichaelR]

Originally Posted by PeterTHX

Keep in mind the base layer of any Dolby Atmos track is a Dolby TrueHD 7.1 track.

The exact point I made to Mac when they told me to let the player convert the signal to PCM. Do that, and you get 7.1, but not Atmos.

I don’t think their tech guys are all that familiar with audio formats unless they’re used for music.

Bizarre it'll have issues with 5.1 but not 7.1 TrueHD.

Agreed.

[Lee A Stewart]

Originally Posted by Panson

Their newer development with "Vantiva" (link) sounds more positive for video discs. We'll just have to wait and see.

https://hdguru.com/technicolor-looks...vd-operations/

https://www.motionpictures.org/wp-co...port-FINAL.pdf

[blackprojection]

Originally Posted by Brian81

Could that be just fewer plants? Every pressing plant for optical discs is shut down in USA so the one in Mexico gets everything and titles regularly get delayed. That doesn't mean optical discs are more in demand now than twenty years ago.

There is literally more music out there made by new artists. They get their Albums Pressed on vinyl too. 500 copies maybe 1000 but the number of albums Pressed on vinyl is much more than ever before plus as I said back catalogues get numerous represses. Yes there are less pressing plants but their numbers are increasing slowly again. For instance in Turkey a company set up a pressing plant. Last Vinyl was pressed end of 80's and now the business is flourishing because the demand is high. Just go to a vinyl shop and take a look at new releases. I'm sure half of the artist are probably some you never heard of before.

[Anthony P]

Originally Posted by Lee A Stewart

Hollywood sees the bare truth. People have stopped buying movies. That heyday is over. Oh sure - they will support the collectors - just like they did for LD owners. But it will never be the huge revenue streams that Hollywood once enjoyed from DVD.

So what is the average UHD-BD sales numbers? How many copies are being sold? Not the handful of blockbuster titles like The Batman. The titles that have been released a half a dozen times previously on all the different formats.

As Geoff said . . . the law of diminishing returns. Each format has sold less than the previous format DVD > BD > UHD-BD

Did I say I wanted to start a studio or replication company or something like that? I am, like many here, a guy that just wants to enjoy movies that others make and distribute. Maybe I prefer to own (and that is an oddity) and I care about presentation (and again that is an oddity) but why should I care if a studio presses 1M copies or 100k copies or even just 10 copies as long as what I bolded is true. All I want and need is that one copy. And as long as someone cares at making that one copy possible that is all I need.

As to the rest the comparisons at face value appear to make sense but in reality they don't small (like my corner store that was at one point ion time renting films) and big ones have bought some films through the retail market so it is not cleanly consumer market as you pretend. second yes consumer market has declined but some existed due to circumstances. I know a few people that were never what I would call true collectors, they might buy a film or two from what I call the garbage bin (I have bought many films from it and don't mean to offend anyone or anything but they are almost always just thrown in there as if they are seen as garbage) when they were at the store , as one of my friends said at the time "I can pay 5$ not have to worry about it and watch it if I can't be bothered to go to the rental store or rent it for 3$ and have to bring it back" that most likely have dried up a lot if not completely disappeared (i.e. the inconvenience is no longer there streaming price if you watch more or less content and the inconvenience of going to the rental place to get the film and then to bring it back.)

But you are the master of sales data and you seem to want to compare then and now, let me ask you this can you get the numbers for the top selling film each year on physical media.

[Anthony P]

Originally Posted by Geoff D

The nerd thing wasn't intended as a pejorative, I'm something of a nerd myself. But as far as upgrades go then the idea of an 8K of x movie - even a 65mm classic - doesn't excite me as much as it once would've. Everyone has their own threshold for what's good enough as you say, but when we have to scrabble around for such incremental things to differentiate 8K then that speaks for itself. And as for in-home 8K upscaling, don't all the 8K sets tout their super duper AI upscaling abilities these days? So I don't think you have to worry about some nearest neighbour type deal there.

Heck, I'd be more interested in 8K if the quality of compression wasn't going down the gurgler as it is with 4K UHD, it's so spotty at the moment and I can't see how 8K breaks free from that. Decent encoding is like the very last thing on the minds of the content providers and fookin hell it drives me up the wall.

I did not take it baddly and I understood how you meant it. To put it differently I don't talk about this stuff with friends and family because they really don't care, really don't understand and most importantly really don't care to understand. Even on here where that is not as true some times we can get into TMI territory. And you think I crossed that line.

It is always hard to tell where that line should be but I think like your reply on film resolution, in this case we both thought it needed to delve a tiny bit deeper, if for no other reason that a) it might be a bit counterintuitive and extremely debatable.



as for the rest I am not disagreeing with you, the truth is that (maybe because there were other HD sources before disks) I stopped buying DVDs before HD disks showed up on the market knowing full well DVD was no where near good enough for me and I will need to upgrade films I want to watch (used the time to empty my unseen pile) when UHD BD came out I did not immediately stop buying BD (and still buy 3D titles when they show up) . I don't knwo what I will doif there is an 8k format will I say "who cares" will I say "I will buy new in 8k and be happy with my UHD BDs" or will I decide to rebuild my connection. Let's face it the format will play a big role in answering that question and at this point we don't know what that format will be.

I know some people will get their panties in a knot but if the option was BD or the equivalent of 4k streaming in quality I would neither be replacing my library nor probably jumping on that new format.

It was a theoretical can an 8k copy look better then a 4k copy if the master is 4k and I think the answer is yes and i was explaining why.

[Anthony P]

Originally Posted by Dragun

"Digital" is used to mean streaming or file-based, rather than disc-based, even though the discs contain digital media. The stickler in me hates that usage, but it is what it is.

Me too. Personally I prefer the term virtual media.

[Lee A Stewart]

Originally Posted by Anthony P

But you are the master of sales data and you seem to want to compare then and now, let me ask you this can you get the numbers for the top selling film each year on physical media.

Top-Selling DVDs in the United States 2021

https://www.the-numbers.com/home-market/dvd-sales/2021

Top-Selling Blu-rays in the United States 2021

https://www.the-numbers.com/home-mar...ray-sales/2021

[Eleton84]

Tech companies will find ways to sell 8k and people will buy it up. I had an idea from watching sci fi movies and sent an email to lg. I wrote that voice assistant did not interest me but if there was a simulated human that spoke to you i might use it. Imagine marketing a tv that had someone like cortana from halo conversing with you. I love new new tech and buy a new tv every year. I have several in my house in different rooms that are all only a year or two old. I give away or sell for cheap my older tvs to family and friends. So myself as 1 person has bought enought tvs for like 8 people over the last few years. There are plenty of AV people out there to make up for the ones who dont buy. I know other people who buy for family members that dont buy for themselves. My best tv is the lg c1 Oled. 4k looks amazing on that tv. My wish list for future tech would be more 60 fps movies and a cortana like tv personal assistant. An 8k tv with those features would be like a true window into other worlds.

[Staying Salty]

Originally Posted by Lee A Stewart

Top-Selling DVDs in the United States 2021

https://www.the-numbers.com/home-market/dvd-sales/2021

Top-Selling Blu-rays in the United States 2021

https://www.the-numbers.com/home-mar...ray-sales/2021

Those numbers are so depressing.

I am glad that I have been collecting 4K blu-rays since the beginning, even though I don’t have 4K equipment yet. I have close to 400 titles now and I am sure that I could not acquire them all if I had waited.