8K discussion thread

[Fendergopher]

Originally Posted by Pans

I think it's a bit shortsighted to rule out 8K for games based on current gen capabilities since downsampling from higher resolutions has been a thing in gaming for many years.

The older the game gets—or if it's not a demanding game to begin with—the less taxing it is to downsample on modern hardware.

I know many, including myself, who have played games at 4K resolutions on non-4K monitors for the image quality benefits (dowsampling as a form of high quality anti-aliasing, increased LoD (typically)). In fact, where possible, I always try to play at downsampled resolutions. Nvidia even built in to their settings a few years back as an easy way to achieve this: DSR factors (1.25x/1.5x/2x/4x/etc), which makes those higher resolutions available in-game.

I don't think Sony nor Microsoft have mentioned downsampling even once with regards to their upcoming consoles though, and while downsampling isn't quite as demanding as outputting a native 8K screen res, it still takes a lot of extra horsepower if you want to maintain a steady 60FPS. Most current games on console with downsampling support mostly run at around 30FPS IIRC.

[Pans]

Originally Posted by Fendergopher

I don't think Sony nor Microsoft have mentioned downsampling even once with regards to their upcoming consoles though, and while downsampling isn't quite as demanding as outputting a native 8K screen res, it still takes a lot of extra horsepower if you want to maintain a steady 60FPS. Most current games on console with downsampling support mostly run at around 30FPS IIRC.

It's unfortunate for console owners, yeah, though my comment was replying to a PC benchmark. I've read threads where users have expressed a desire for the PS4 Pro's 4K rendering capability on non-4K displays, for example, and have been disappointed to find that's not possible (last I saw anyway).

Though in terms of the PC market rendering at 4K+ resolutions has been utilized for longer than even higher resolutions displays were commonly available and certainly as games age (or again, are less demanding graphically to begin with) it becomes easier to attain higher framerates.

It's true though that consoles/living room devices tend to drive purchase decisions for a larger number of consumers which in turn drives demand for the tech to support the best experience. In that sense if the hardware chosen for consoles doesn't show a marked uptick in benefit for 8K then those consumers mightn't see as much value.

[DJR662]

Originally Posted by rachaeldeckard

Having used my 8K OLED for a few days now I can say that the increase in resolution and sharpness is easily apparant even on 4K content. The naysayers saying no one can see the difference are wrong as usual.


Although admittedly the difference is probably not enough for most people to care about. And you do have to be sitting at the closest recommended seating distance which 99% of people simply don't do.


Each bump in resolution from SD > HD > 4K > 8K gets greater diminishing returns. I feel like we've reached the end.

Appreciate this fair and honest post.

[Lee A Stewart]

8k Demonstration October 22-24 At The SMPTE Exhibits At The Westin Bonaventure Hotel, Los Angeles

https://www.widescreenreview.com/new...l.php?id=22094

[scarletlion]

Is this true 8K? My machine can barely play it.

CASABLANCA 1942 | UHD 8K remastered | Machine learning 4K - YouTube

[gkolb]

While it’s true that Warner Bros scanned the OCN of Casablanca, Oz and GWTW at 8K prior to all three being released on Bluray, only Oz has a 4K UHD release in a week.

Guess I’m skeptical of a true 8K clip until the source can be confirmed.

[JohnAV]

Originally Posted by scarletlion

Is this true 8K? My machine can barely play it.

Nope there was back in 2018 a Casablanca restoration that was to be released in 4K for the UK, but a quick search of UK Amazon shows nothing.

This is likely someone with their own image enhancement process that takes 4K snippets and AI upscales them to 8k and the resulting file size combined with 8k Youtube resolution and the usual IP buffering issues make it harder to play via YouTube.

I am sure some of these older films would look great on Roberts arsenal of 8K AI upscaling displays.

[Penton-Man]

Originally Posted by rachaeldeckard

Having used my 8K OLED for a few days now I can say that the increase in resolution and sharpness is easily apparant even on 4K content. The naysayers saying no one can see the difference are wrong as usual.


Although admittedly the difference is probably not enough for most people to care about. And you do have to be sitting at the closest recommended seating distance which 99% of people simply don't do.


Each bump in resolution from SD > HD > 4K > 8K gets greater diminishing returns. I feel like we've reached the end.

No disrespect to Racheal for the input, but this ^ is why we need this - https://forum.blu-ray.com/showthread...l#post16871562

for instance, the assertion I made about the Sony BVM-HX310 yesterday in the HDR Discussion Thread was based upon input from ~ 100 viewers in a single blind test

P.S.
And a hosted 4K/8K shootout at the viewing distance correlating to the vast majority of TV watchers in the U.S.A. is needed rather than dancing around that topic with imprecision or outdated graphs. Robert, the ball is in your court to take the lead.

[JohnAV]

What is 8K and should you buy an 8K TV in 2020? - Gadgetflow

A informative article for consumers to take in, nothing bad about it. Lots of images/info against the recent 8k manufacturers displays.

[rachaeldeckard]

There isn't much of a debate here. Unless you are like me, a videophile enthusiast who likes to be on the bleeding edge, no one has any business rushing out and buying an 8K display.


At some point any display over a certain size is automatically going to be 8K just like everything is automatically 4K right now. But it is not something you should be specifically seeking out or paying more for.

[LordoftheRings]

Originally Posted by scarletlion

Is this true 8K? My machine can barely play it.

CASABLANCA 1942 | UHD 8K remastered | Machine learning 4K - YouTube

Hey that's real sharp looking.

[JohnAV]

Originally Posted by LordoftheRings

Hey that's real sharp looking.

Not if you look closely, compare the 8K to 4K stream. Look at the bottle that is standing on the table. Look at both streaming resolutions by opening up two browser windows and alternate looking at it from 0:10 to 0:26 it's dithered on both playbacks because it goes in and out of being focused. It does look sharp overall.

[rachaeldeckard]

Originally Posted by scarletlion

Is this true 8K? My machine can barely play it.

CASABLANCA 1942 | UHD 8K remastered | Machine learning 4K - YouTube

No it is not true 8K. It says Machine Learning in the title indicating it is an upconvert.


There is plenty of true 8K Material on Youtube including HDR and 60fps. Here is a popular one:

Peru 8K HDR 60FPS (FUHD) - YouTube

[JohnAV]

LG 8K OLED TV vs LG Nano 9 Series 8K NanoCell TV

LG OLED88Z9 And 75SM9970 (75SM9900) 8K TV Reviews: One’s Incredible, The Other… Isn’t - JohnArcher@Forbes 10/23/19

Verdict

Spending quality time with LG’s duo of 8K TV debutantes has been fascinating on a number of levels. It’s provided new perspectives on the big ‘real 8K’ battle LG and Samsung are currently embroiled in. It’s presented new evidence of how much of a difference 8K can make to picture quality - and where we’re at in terms of 8K upscaling.

It’s even given me the chance to compare not just 8K LCD with 8K OLED, but quite different types of 8K LCD panel against one another.

The conclusions are fairly straightforward when you boil it all down. First, 8K does again make a clearly visible difference to picture quality, at least on 75-inch and bigger screens. Second, while LG’s 8K upscaling delivers more detailed-looking pictures with 8K sources than Samsung’s does, lower quality sources look sharper on the Samsung sets - albeit also slightly more noisy in bright, detailed areas.

Third, LG’s 8K TVs do look slightly more ‘8K’ in fine detail areas than Samsung’s current Q900RB/Q950 range lending credence to LG’s ‘Real 8K’ claims.

HOWEVER! The really pretty painful problems the 75SM9970/75SM9900’s IPS LCD panel has delivering convincing black levels without suffering major backlight blooming in turn lends credence to Samsung’s argument that sacrificing a little ‘hard’ pixel resolution to combine wide viewing angles with the significant contrast benefits of VA panels is a trade worth making in overall 8K LCD picture quality terms. Especially for anyone who likes watching films with the lights down. Which you probably do if you’re considering spending many thousands of pounds on your next TV.

Last but not least, though, I think it’s safe to say that all things considered, the LG OLED88Z9 is the finest TV I’ve ever seen. It’s just stunning. Whether that’s a cause of genuine excitement or rueful eye-rolling, though, is a matter for you and your life savings.

[Blu350z]

Originally Posted by JohnAV

LG 8K OLED TV vs LG Nano 9 Series 8K NanoCell TV

LG OLED88Z9 And 75SM9970 (75SM9900) 8K TV Reviews: One’s Incredible, The Other… Isn’t - JohnArcher@Forbes 10/23/19

"LG claims that the external box will enable its TVs to provide compatibility with future 8K video formats as and when they’re defined. But it seems a bit surprising, honestly, that LG has launched a pair of ‘Real 8K’ TVs with no built-in ability to handle even the tiny amount of 8K sources we have out there to date."

So from other sources that I read the TVs do not come with these boxes, the customer has to order them. If so then out of the box the LG TVs are not 8k supported.

[SeeMoreDigital]

Originally Posted by rachaeldeckard

There is plenty of true 8K Material on Youtube including HDR and 60fps. Here is a popular one:

Peru 8K HDR 60FPS (FUHD) - YouTube

It would appear that the 8K sample has been encoded using regular VP9 and not VP9.2: -

[info] Available formats for 1La4QzGeaaQ:
format code  extension  resolution note
249          webm       audio only DASH audio   58k , opus @ 50k, 2.01MiB
250          webm       audio only DASH audio   78k , opus @ 70k, 2.68MiB
140          m4a        audio only DASH audio  130k , m4a_dash container, mp4a.40.2@128k, 5.21MiB
251          webm       audio only DASH audio  150k , opus @160k, 5.29MiB
394          mp4        256x144    144p   90k , av01.0.00M.08, 30fps, video only, 3.11MiB
278          webm       256x144    144p   98k , webm container, vp9, 30fps, video only, 3.65MiB
160          mp4        256x144    144p  111k , avc1.4d400c, 30fps, video only, 2.67MiB
395          mp4        426x240    240p  221k , av01.0.00M.08, 30fps, video only, 6.84MiB
242          webm       426x240    240p  226k , vp9, 30fps, video only, 7.62MiB
133          mp4        426x240    240p  245k , avc1.4d4015, 30fps, video only, 5.70MiB
330          webm       256x144    144p60 HDR  245k , vp9.2, 60fps, video only, 8.88MiB
396          mp4        640x360    360p  392k , av01.0.01M.08, 30fps, video only, 12.27MiB
243          webm       640x360    360p  411k , vp9, 30fps, video only, 14.34MiB
331          webm       426x240    240p60 HDR  499k , vp9.2, 60fps, video only, 18.95MiB
134          mp4        640x360    360p  633k , avc1.4d401e, 30fps, video only, 17.17MiB
397          mp4        854x480    480p  720k , av01.0.04M.08, 30fps, video only, 22.33MiB
244          webm       854x480    480p  774k , vp9, 30fps, video only, 26.52MiB
332          webm       640x360    360p60 HDR 1061k , vp9.2, 60fps, video only, 40.88MiB
135          mp4        854x480    480p 1352k , avc1.4d401f, 30fps, video only, 35.62MiB
398          mp4        1280x720   720p60 1511k , av01.0.08M.08, 60fps, video only, 45.35MiB
247          webm       1280x720   720p 1571k , vp9, 30fps, video only, 54.04MiB
333          webm       854x480    480p60 HDR 2022k , vp9.2, 60fps, video only, 77.41MiB
302          webm       1280x720   720p60 2664k , vp9, 60fps, video only, 91.20MiB
136          mp4        1280x720   720p 2698k , avc1.4d401f, 30fps, video only, 70.39MiB
248          webm       1920x1080  1080p 2762k , vp9, 30fps, video only, 95.02MiB
298          mp4        1280x720   720p60 4201k , avc1.4d4020, 60fps, video only, 115.83MiB
303          webm       1920x1080  1080p60 4460k , vp9, 60fps, video only, 156.50MiB
334          webm       1280x720   720p60 HDR 4521k , vp9.2, 60fps, video only, 177.79MiB
137          mp4        1920x1080  1080p 5065k , avc1.640028, 30fps, video only, 130.40MiB
335          webm       1920x1080  1080p60 HDR 6907k , vp9.2, 60fps, video only, 272.04MiB
299          mp4        1920x1080  1080p60 7008k , avc1.64002a, 60fps, video only, 204.40MiB
271          webm       2560x1440  1440p 9107k , vp9, 30fps, video only, 299.22MiB
308          webm       2560x1440  1440p60 13297k , vp9, 60fps, video only, 461.27MiB
336          webm       2560x1440  1440p60 HDR 16269k , vp9.2, 60fps, video only, 643.16MiB
313          webm       3840x2160  2160p 18217k , vp9, 30fps, video only, 642.40MiB
315          webm       3840x2160  2160p60 26604k , vp9, 60fps, video only, 996.25MiB
337          webm       3840x2160  2160p60 HDR 28928k , vp9.2, 60fps, video only, 1.12GiB
272          webm       7680x4320  4320p60 32524k , vp9, 60fps, video only, 850.48MiB
43           webm       640x360    medium , vp8.0, vorbis@128k, 33.32MiB
18           mp4        640x360    medium  674k , avc1.42001E, mp4a.40.2@ 96k (44100Hz), 27.15MiB
22           mp4        1280x720   hd720 1877k , avc1.64001F, mp4a.40.2@192k (44100Hz) (best)

[Geoff D]

Originally Posted by gkolb

While it’s true that Warner Bros scanned the OCN of Casablanca, Oz and GWTW at 8K prior to all three being released on Bluray, only Oz has a 4K UHD release in a week.

Guess I’m skeptical of a true 8K clip until the source can be confirmed.

Something "scanned in 8K" doesn't mean "finished in 8K", I'll bet cash money that Warners finished out the latest Oz restoration in 4K downsampled from the raw 8K scans. That means the raw scans are there for those who'd like to use them but re-aligning the three Technicolor negatives in 4K space is time-consuming and costly enough, but in 8K? Yowza.

Still, this sort of thing is where machine learning could really come into play to bring down remastering costs in future, teaching it to remove dirt properly, stabilise the image (but not remove intended camera shake like Lowry did on Spy Who Loved Me all those years ago), re-align three strip negs and seps etc. I'd rather that they got the machines learning to do that before upscaling stuff purely for the sake of justifying an 8K TV purchase.

[Gillietalls]

Originally Posted by Robert Zohn

We're considering an evaluation event with the three premium manufacturers 8K TVs and Sony's 77" 4K A9G OLED as it was the winner of the 2019 4K HDR TV Shootout.

Is this evaluation looking to be done this year, or with next year's flat panel shootout?

[rachaeldeckard]

Originally Posted by SeeMoreDigital

It would appear that the 8K sample has been encoded using regular VP9 and not VP9.2: -

I haven't seen a video that is 8K and HDR at the same time. It might be a Youtube limitation.


I do have an 8K HDR sample video that came on my TV though.

[Penton-Man]

“In glaucoma surgery, creating a sclera flap might not require stereoscopic vision so much because an 8K UHD image is easier to be seen than an image through a microscope with natural three-dimensional effect in a wide range” [a notion not ever presented in peer reviewed literature for 4K TVs use in the OR suite], “which might be possible for near-future “heads-up surgery” without observation through microscopic optical system” (Figure 6).

Heads-up surgery -


https://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pmc/articles/PMC6157988/
Thanks to a spokesperson from NHK for alerting me yesterday as to the above paper.