8K discussion thread

[FilmFreakosaurus]

Originally Posted by rachaeldeckard

But my point is consumers don't make the decision. As Henry Ford apocryphally said “If I had asked people what they wanted, they would have said faster horses.”

No one is asking for 8K just like no one asked for 4K or HD before that. At one time VHS was considered "good enough".

Today you have to go out of your way to find a 1080p TV. It won't be long before all TVs over 65" will be 8K no matter what. And when you have the install base someone will want to sell them the content.

We have had 4k for a number of years... few are giving us the content. Many titles are still 2k upconverted.

[JohnAV]

Originally Posted by FilmFreakosaurus

We have had 4k for a number of years... few are giving us the content. Many titles are still 2k upconverted.

Just to show this is a slow industry in spite of what the TV manufacturers say.

• First DVD player was Nov 1996
• First BD player was Aug 2006
• First UHD BD media released was February 14, 2016

The first 4K TVs went on sale back in 2012, but it wasn't until 2016 that the first 4K Blu-ray players from Samsung and Panasonic went on sale

Here it is 3 1/2 years after 4K UHD BD media shows up and you have people thinking 8K content is right around the corner because the 8K TVs are now available. Yeah sure the track record of this industry is not great.

[rachaeldeckard]

Originally Posted by JohnAV

Just to show this is a slow industry in spite of what the TV manufacturers say.

• First DVD player was Nov 1996
• First BD player was Aug 2006
• First UHD BD media released was February 14, 2016

Here it is 3 1/2 years after 4K UHD BD media shows up and you have people thinking 8K content is right around the corner because the 8K TVs are now available. Yeah sure the track record of this industry is not great.

No one is saying it is right around the corner. But your timelines are flawed since you are limiting yourself to physical media (which is virtually guaranteed to not exist for 8k.)

HD broadcasting began in 1999 and 4K streaming began in 2014.

It doesn’t seem a stretch to think that we will have the beginning of 8K content in 2 or 3 years.

[DJR662]

Physcial media is the only media that matters.

I think it's safe to say there won't be actual physical 8K media, so yeah...

[JohnAV]

Originally Posted by DJR662

Physcial media is the only media that matters.

I think it's safe to say there won't be actual physical 8K media, so yeah...

In Japan they actually worked around that. See Blu-ray Disc Association Settles on 8K Format

Our meeting with the Blu-ray Disc Association was to provide a review of the year’s activities and plans going forward. Perhaps the biggest news is that in December 2017, the specification for an 8K Blu-ray format was completed, which means products should be in place in time for the 2020 Olympics in Japan, which NHK has promised to broadcast in 8K.

The spec is for Japan only however, as it applies to next generation recording. The spec identifies how to transfer a hard disc recording to a Blu-ray medium or for direct recording to a Blu-ray disc. Over the air recording to hard disc or Blu-ray recorders is the predominant recording method in Japan. Licensing of the approach to record 4K/8K content at up to 100 Mbps to BD-R or BD-RE discs has now begun for the Japan market. More than two hours of 8K content (@ 100Mbps) can be recorded on BDXL discs (128GB - quad-layer, 100GB triple-layer).

The new standard supports the HEVC video codec of up to a maximum of 8K/60P as well as HDR (hybrid log gamma method). Furthermore, the MPEG4-AAC and MPEG4-ALS audio codecs are also supported. The new 4K/8K Satellite TV recordings will be protected by the AACS2 system.

[JohnAV]

Originally Posted by rachaeldeckard

No one is saying it is right around the corner. But your timelines are flawed since you are limiting yourself to physical media (which is virtually guaranteed to not exist for 8k.)

HD broadcasting began in 1999 and 4K streaming began in 2014.

It doesn’t seem a stretch to think that we will have the beginning of 8K content in 2 or 3 years.

That was just a approximation of how slow the overall industry is to migrate from SD to HD to UHD. Its really about whether the studios/content owners can provide said content and find its economically viable for Digital Theaters usage with income derived from movies watchers.

If it doesn't make money it could sink faster than 3D did.

4K DI content would satisfy 99% any film buff out there, just isn't that much available.

[rachaeldeckard]

Originally Posted by DJR662

Physcial media is the only media that matters.

I think it's safe to say there won't be actual physical 8K media, so yeah...

You do realize physical media in all forms has been in constant decline for years now. It might matter for enthusiasts like us but not for the average person anymore.

Originally Posted by JohnAV

In Japan they actually worked around that. See Blu-ray Disc Association Settles on 8K Format

That’s for recording broadcasts which is also how Blu-ray got its start back in 2003. But there is hardly any existing content to justify creating a pre-recorded 8K disc format. 8K only makes sense for new content via broadcasting and streaming.

[Lee A Stewart]

I don't expect to see any 8K content available to consumers (other than some one-offs on YouTube) for at least 5 years. It will take that long for the TVs to make some inroads into consumers living rooms.

The cost to upgrade the current infrastructure for content providers from 2K/4K to 8K will be billions of dollars with no clear method to recoup said investments.

Though the specs for ATSC 3.0 can handle 8K (at 200 mbps) that is too much for most of the USA's broadband systems. Even with the new VCC codec, it only can get it down to 150 mbps - still too high.

So 4K will be the goal especially as the format has reached critical mass as far as living room penetration.

[Penton-Man]

Originally Posted by rachaeldeckard

But all using a 4K or even 2K DI.

Of course, however in my reply to mdonovan on the last page, I was specifically responding to his phrase about acquisition which I found a bit misleading (bolding by me so you understand) -

Originally Posted by mdonovan

agreed ... nothing worthwhile is being authored or shot in 8K.

Be that as it may, since you’re insinuating the importance of maintaining captured high resolution throughout post to deliverable, you should especially be interested in thee as yet unreported results of this SMPTE exhibit - https://forum.blu-ray.com/showthread...t#post16975827

factoring in the crucial selection of scaling algorithm, as y’all have learned - http://yedlin.net/ResDemo/#

[ROSS.T.G.]

4K UHD is my final frontier.

[DJR662]

Originally Posted by ROSS.T.G.

4K UHD is my final frontier.

In a certain way, it's everyone's final frontier.

[ROSS.T.G.]

Originally Posted by DJR662

In a certain way, it's everyone's final frontier.

[Penton-Man]

Originally Posted by ROSS.T.G.

4K UHD is my final frontier.

riiiiiight
consumer TV manufacturers response:
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=4nkIuzMNFKU#t=11m24s

[Geoff D]

Originally Posted by JohnAV

In Japan they actually worked around that. See Blu-ray Disc Association Settles on 8K Format

Yes but you know what he means: mass-replicated pre-pressed 8K physical media, not just for recording tentacle porn from TV.

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The problem with physical 8K media is the added X factor needed to sell it, I know I keep going on about there are no new HDR solutions but at the time of writing it's still true, there's no extra USP for an 8K disc other than it using a next next next gen codec and of course being in 8K resolution...but as the vast majority of movies are STILL finished in 2K then where does that leave modern content on 8K disc? There's precious little "native 4K" content on UHD as things stand so "native 8K" would be even more sparse.

We get enough pushback against 2K upscales on 4K as it is, putting them on 8K disc really would be a bridge too far. They could be fancily upscaled using AI but the AI stuff inside the 8K TVs is already the greatest thing ever (apparently) so having a pre-upscaled disc would circumvent one of the main USPs of the 8K TVs themselves! More stuff is being shot to 8K today, sure, but even if they're finished out to 8K it's usually the streaming services who are in a position to demand this and the last time I checked they weren't so hot on putting out physical media, the occasional nostalgia-induced retailer-exclusive package like those for Stranger Things aside.

As for legacy stuff shot and finished to film, 65mm and 8/35 would start to yield returns in 8K over 4K but how much is questionable, and for 4/35 and below you're well over the limit of what they can resolve at their best, unless they themselves are subject to expensive processing over and above normal methods.

So yeah, in terms of physical 8K media alone it really does seem an answer to a question that doesn't need asking, some people would say that about 8K TVs in general but it can't be denied that they will inevitably have processing, image tech etc that goes beyond what the manufacturers are providing for 4K TV because that's just how the markets work when they've got a new product to shift. And there will absolutely be 8K streaming content but a pre-packaged 8K disc? Doesn't seem likely to me.

[JohnAV]

Originally Posted by Geoff D

Yes but you know what he means: mass-replicated pre-pressed 8K physical media, not just for recording tentacle porn from TV.

-------------------------------------------------------------

The problem with physical 8K media is the added X factor needed to sell it, I know I keep going on about there are no new HDR solutions but at the time of writing it's still true, there's no extra USP for an 8K disc other than it using a next next next gen codec and of course being in 8K resolution...but as the vast majority of movies are STILL finished in 2K then where does that leave modern content on 8K disc? There's precious little "native 4K" content on UHD as things stand so "native 8K" would be even more sparse.

We get enough pushback against 2K upscales on 4K as it is, putting them on 8K disc really would be a bridge too far. They could be fancily upscaled using AI but the AI stuff inside the 8K TVs is already the greatest thing ever (apparently) so having a pre-upscaled disc would circumvent one of the main USPs of the 8K TVs themselves! More stuff is being shot to 8K today, sure, but even if they're finished out to 8K it's usually the streaming services who are in a position to demand this and the last time I checked they weren't so hot on putting out physical media, the occasional nostalgia-induced retailer-exclusive package like those for Stranger Things aside.

As for legacy stuff shot and finished to film, 65mm and 8/35 would start to yield returns in 8K over 4K but how much is questionable, and for 4/35 and below you're well over the limit of what they can resolve at their best, unless they themselves are subject to expensive processing over and above normal methods.

So yeah, in terms of physical 8K media alone it really does seem an answer to a question that doesn't need asking, some people would say that about 8K TVs in general but it can't be denied that they will inevitably have processing, image tech etc that goes beyond what the manufacturers are providing for 4K TV because that's just how the markets work when they've got a new product to shift. And there will absolutely be 8K streaming content but a pre-packaged 8K disc? Doesn't seem likely to me.

Ok there is no X factor to sell 8k media, and native 8k content would negate all that fancy AI in a 8k display making all you really need are cheap 8k panels which we already heard could be made for the same price as 4k, as a display standard, so when it comes to streaming you think there absolutely will be that, perhaps, but the way you stated this is kinda like taking all the fun out of 8k marketing. Spoilsport!

[Penton-Man]

Originally Posted by rachaeldeckard

But all using a 4K or even 2K DI.

I think some of you guys place a little too much emphasis in the “DI” as an absolute qualifier with regards to sharpness and movies.

For example, content shot with a 6K camera with a set of soft or vintage lenses processed as a 4K DI can appear less sharp than a 3K camera with sharp lenses and a 2K DI. For a primer on sharpness, esp. see Chapter 8: CAMERA & LENSES: THE PARADOX and the prior 2 chapters in this pdf - https://www.imago.org/images/pdfs/TE..._2018_V015.pdf
In a nutshell, many filmmakers complain about the over sharpness created by some 4K/6K cameras and they often employ different strategies (lenses or filtering) to alleviate this issue and make their motion pictures ‘stylistic’, thusly essentially dumbing down the detail.

This fact can/will be extrapolated to 8K acquisition and color correction with cinematic content, i.e. an 8K camera with a set of soft lenses and an 8K DI can appear less sharp than content shot with a 4K or 6K camera with sharp lenses which has gone thru a 4K DI.

On the other hand, movies aside, I like my sports appearing tack sharp (clinical), ergo enter ‘nano level’ lenses - http://and-fujifilm.jp/en/8k/index.html#

[Geoff D]

Originally Posted by Penton-Man

I think some of you guys place a little too much emphasis in the “DI” as an absolute qualifier with regards to sharpness and movies.

For example, content shot with a 6K camera with a set of soft or vintage lenses processed as a 4K DI can appear less sharp than a 3K camera with sharp lenses and a 2K DI. For a primer on sharpness, esp. see Chapter 8: CAMERA & LENSES: THE PARADOX and the prior 2 chapters in this pdf - https://www.imago.org/images/pdfs/TE..._2018_V015.pdf
In a nutshell, many filmmakers complain about the over sharpness created by some 4K/6K cameras and they often employ different strategies (lenses or filtering) to alleviate this issue and make their motion pictures ‘stylistic’, thusly essentially dumbing down the detail.

This fact can/will be extrapolated to 8K acquisition and color correction with cinematic content, i.e. an 8K camera with a set of soft lenses and an 8K DI can appear less sharp than content shot with a 4K or 6K camera with sharp lenses which has gone thru a 4K DI.

On the other hand, movies aside, I like my sports appearing tack sharp (clinical), ergo enter ‘nano level’ lenses - http://and-fujifilm.jp/en/8k/index.html#

Yes but every time you jump up in spatial res you seem to get more and more and more people who want every piece of content to exploit those numbers whether the original photography itself can support it or not, hence this ongoing cult of "true 4K" believers. I'm not arguing your wider point Penton, not at all, but people are funny old things.

I'd love to see what the reviews for an 8K transfer of Gremlins would be, in case you didn't know several review sites have been scathing of the 4K disc of that one because they've no idea that a dark, grainy movie shot with fog filters would look like a dark, grainy movie shot with fog filters. I mean, who knew??

[spider-neil]

Originally Posted by ROSS.T.G.

4K UHD is my final frontier.

Same. I don't even think your eyes would be able to the difference between 4K and 8K with a display smaller than 85".

[Lee A Stewart]

Originally Posted by spider-neil

Same. I don't even think your eyes would be able to the difference between 4K and 8K with a display smaller than 85".

It's more about how close you sit to the display as opposed to the size of it when it comes to 8K. The idea is to fill your field of vision.

[Penton-Man]

Originally Posted by Geoff D

...in case you didn't know several review sites have been scathing

I didn’t know, as I think I’d prefer to be water boarded than reading any of them. Those in-the-know either attend or follow the reporting on get-togethers like this - https://camerimage.pl/assets/uploads...2019-17.30.pdf