The Lord of the Rings: The Motion Picture Trilogy (Extended Edition) (2001-2003)

[Velmeran]

Mark, can you do one of those photoshop analysis on the 2 snow scenes (Caradhras and Boromir with the Ring) curious what the color values will come back as.

Originally Posted by JamesKurtovich

WOW.

Now, fairness in conversation -- that appears to be the worse screenshot of the lot (at least of the ones that have been posted), I don't think anyone is actually defending that one (though for me personally there would be one possible scenario it which I can at least see how a director came to use that tint --- trying to see a mood of dust/dusk, but even I am pretty skeptical of that one.)

[Todd Smith]

Originally Posted by MEB

It certainly appears that way. At least, on the EE Blu-ray of FOTR.

Here's another one for you kids.

The theatrical edition Blu-ray:




The new extended edition Blu-ray:




Using Photoshop's color picker to measure the RGB values of the "white" area of the horse's forehead on the EE Blu-ray. The red arrow shows the spot where I measured the color.




Calling Green Lantern... calling Green Lantern... someone from the Shire has mistaken your ring for the one to rule them all. Please report to stage 37 to claim your property!



Mark

This might be even worse than the mountain pass shot. Man, that is ugly!

[MEB]

BTW, if anyone has doubts that this last scene (the four hobbits with the horse) didn't actually come from the Blu-rays (theatrical and extended), then you better talk to blubrew:

http://blubrew.com/2011/06/16/the-fe...ended-edition/

Mark

[mrpink134]

I can't wait until I get mine! I like the darker color. I think PJ made the right decision

[mrpink134]

Originally Posted by MEB

BTW, if anyone has doubts that this last scene (the four hobbits with the horse) didn't actually come from the Blu-rays (theatrical and extended), then you better talk to blubrew:

http://blubrew.com/2011/06/16/the-fe...ended-edition/

Mark

again I like the darker color in it. I really hope this was intent by PJ, It looks great

[mrpink134]

Originally Posted by MEB

BTW, if anyone has doubts that this last scene (the four hobbits with the horse) didn't actually come from the Blu-rays (theatrical and extended), then you better talk to blubrew:

http://blubrew.com/2011/06/16/the-fe...ended-edition/

Mark

You forgot to add something!

Here's what he said about the Video quality

VIDEO QUALITY

Not too long ago, Warner’s release of Fellowship’s theatrical edition blu-ray sparked quite a bit of controversy. An outdated master with heavy digital manipulations was used, making for a decidedly disappointing release. Luckily we are able to report that the transfer on this new release, having been remastered from the original 2K digital files, offers a substantial upgrade over the lackluster quality on the previous release.

Detail is now exceptional, with clearly visible skin-pores and clothing-textures having replaced the waxy appearance of the theatrical blu-ray. The ugly filtering and sharpening that previously inhabited the image are now gone (with the exception of some moments related to effect-shots) – making for a strongly improved film-like quality with a welcome layer of fine grain. The AVC-encode is competent throughout with only a few noticeable flaws. Some frayed edges and blocky grain show up sporadically, but the issue is slight.

With such a big release there is always room for some controversy, and in this case it’s colour/grading – a newly discovered form of revisionism if you will. The Fellowship of the Ring looks different on this extended release, sometimes wildly different. The strong red hues of the theatrical version have been replaced by a stronger green/teal palette – which might not always look as natural as it should. In some cases even, the gamma- and white-levels are affected to such a degree, that detail starts to diminish (here and here for example).

With forums becoming a place of heated debate over the film’s palette, however, let us make it clear that the good here greatly outweighs the bad. Yes, at certain points a teal tint very visibly intrudes the image – but this effect does not last throughout the entire film, and in quite a few cases the new grading offers an improvement over the sometimes equally questionable, muddy palette of the theatrical versions. In any case, the film’s feel does not suffer substantially from these changes. While we at BluBrew believe that screengrabs are usually a very good indicator of the actual quality of a disc, a debate based on incorrectly taken grabs – or even grabs from ripped video files – simply does not ‘compute’. We have been relatively harsh on Warner in the past, and we would have been equally harsh if this release was the disaster some make it out to be – which it simply isn’t.

While Warner’s remaster here is a welcome revelation, the sometimes questionable colour-shift and its side-effects prevent this transfer from getting a full score. Other than that, this is a truly excellent presentation, and a more than worthy upgrade over the theatrical blu-rays.

[msgohan]

MEB, I think you should color-pick the TE too. (my point here is only that if you're going to use that as a frame of reference, to apply the same standard to both)



By the way, there was a great BBC Horizon documentary with a lot of colour perception illusions that everyone should watch:

YouTube - ‪Is Seeing Believing - Part 1 of 4‬‏

[MEB]

Originally Posted by msgohan

MEB, I think you should color-pick the TE too. (my point here is only that if you're going to use that as a frame of reference, to apply the same standard to both)

I did run the Photoshop color picker tool over various areas of the TE image. My results were the same as yours. Both the "white" snow and the "white" in the horse's forehead in the TE image came back as grey with a slight bluish tint.

And that's EXACTLY as it should be. Cloudy day (grey skies). And even on a cloudy day, white will reflect the atmosphere and tend to lean towards blue. It's completely natural. What isn't natural is GREEN.

While you've got your image program open there, take your cursor and measure the "brown" of the horse's legs, body and head in the EE image. Surprise.... the predominate RGB value in most of the "brown" areas is green.

Of course, you only have to look at the image with your naked eyes to see that one image looks natural and proper and the other image looks like someone put a green silk stocking over the camera lens.

Mark

[MEB]

Originally Posted by mrpink134

You forgot to add something!

Here's what he said about the Video quality

VIDEO QUALITY

While Warner’s remaster here is a welcome revelation, the sometimes questionable colour-shift and its side-effects prevent this transfer from getting a full score. Other than that, this is a truly excellent presentation, and a more than worthy upgrade over the theatrical blu-rays.

And that's the incredibly sad and upsetting part about all of this. All of the nits to pick with the TE version got corrected in the EE version. But then someone went and gave the EE version this putrid green tint.

If the color timing was closer to the TE version (but not quite as heavy on the magenta as the TE), this could have been an EXCEPTIONAL Blu-ray presentation.

So close, yet so far away.

Mark

[Cinemaddict]

Is Fellowship the only movie with this color problem? Is there anything I should look for when I see Two Towers on Tuesday?

In theaters, I definitly remember a few shots in The Shire looking more green and less yellow.

[kurtlingle]

Which projector do you have in mind?

Lots of people like the Panny (AE4000).
I considered the Optima HD20 as it was pretty cheap on amazon (for $884).

Originally Posted by DaViD Boulet

You can get a 1080p projector that will throw a 100" image on your wall that will cause your jaw to drop... with a cleaner image than what you see on any plasma set from the same viewing angle. And you can do this by spending under $2000.

[JamesKurtovich]

Originally Posted by Velmeran

Mark, can you do one of those photoshop analysis on the 2 snow scenes (Caradhras and Boromir with the Ring) curious what the color values will come back as.


Now, fairness in conversation -- that appears to be the worse screenshot of the lot (at least of the ones that have been posted), I don't think anyone is actually defending that one (though for me personally there would be one possible scenario it which I can at least see how a director came to use that tint --- trying to see a mood of dust/dusk, but even I am pretty skeptical of that one.)

It does look like it could be later in the day. But I like the brighter, more colorful image more.

I'm glad to know it isn't like this throughout the whole movie. And in some scenes, like in Rivendell, the color saturation seems toned down for the better..

[Ken Brown]

I think some of the confusion and hostility in this thread is coming from combining two debates into one.

Debate #1: Jackson and Lesnie certainly re-graded portions of the film, and it's evident throughout the EE of FOTR. This has been confirmed for some time and no one should be debating the new color grading's presence on the disc. It is intentional. (As evidenced in shots like Isildur's more naturally colored face in the beginning of FOTR, and the more subdued palette in Rivendell.) Debate on this issue comes down to film revisionism, nothing more. The new color grading, though, could be (could be) completely separate from the green tint we are seeing.

Debate #2: The green/cyan overcast is a separate debate. FOTR has always been a film that uses a palette heavy in greens. However, there is a full-image green tint that appears throughout. This is not how digital color grading works, at least not as Jackson and Lesnie have employed it on two cuts of three three-plus-hour films. (Not to mention the films that followed LOTR in which Jackson relied on digital color grading.) Digital color grading is applied on a region by region basis. Up the reds in faces, up the greens in fields, darken the whites in snow, dull the blue in skies etc. The green/cyan overcast debate comes down to whether Jackson and Lesnie re-graded the film and then decided to apply an extra full-image tint to most, if not all, of their scenes. (It may not be apparent in some scenes, but if new images from a corrected transfer were issued, the differences in the predominately red and blue-cast images would suddenly be apparent. A slight green tint won't suddenly make every blue and red look green. But it will subtly alter the tone of the reds and blues being observed. Comparing shots of Gandalf vs. the Balrog in FOTR to the very same shots in TTT seems to confirm this. The fiery FOTR shots exhibit slightly different reds and oranges than the same fiery TTT shots.)

Ultimately, we know that Jackson and Lesnie re-graded the film and approved all their color changes. But it's also quite possible that a green tint - separate from their new color grade and intentions - was accidentally applied to the full image at some point in the production of the retail discs. The consistency of the green overlay does suggest the very real possibility of an error. It's far from certain but, at the very least, it is, upon careful reflection, strange.

It's also important to note that the increased detail observed in screenshots and the actual image is a product of the new 2K-source transfer, not the new color grading or any green overlay. If a new transfer were issued without the green overlay, the detail and other improvements in the image would not be diminished. If anything, the improvements could possibly be more apparent.

Of all the evidence and arguments being batted around, the complete silence on the controversy from the studio and the filmmakers is the surest sign that there very well may be an error. (I'm not saying there definitely is, but if it was simply intention, logic dictates there would be a statement on the matter to clear things up before the sets, which already shipped to retailers before the controversy began to brew, hit the market.) Every e-mail I send, every call I make, either receives no response or gets a "no official statement has been issued at this time."

That said, buying the set is still a safe bet. If there is an error, I would imagine it is already being dealt with, a statement is already being prepared and a replacement program is already being planned. Again, if there is an error. No matter what, fans will receive the correct discs they are paying for -- be it the first ones they buy or replacements, if there was indeed an error.

Long story short, patience and civility is the only way to proceed. Warner isn't going to be swayed into anything by complaints. They'll do so because they won't want one of their most beloved films to be sullied by a production error. That's why they went back to the original 2K source for this transfer - to honor fans' wishes for a purer experience. Rest easy, gents. If there is an error, it will be dealt with. If there isn't, a statement will be made just the same.

[MEB]

Ken,

You might want to bold that "If there is an error" comment in the 7th paragraph. Otherwise, someone might read just the part that comes after it and start telling everyone on the internet that you just said there is a replacement program already in the works.



BTW, a very logical and nicely worded message! If only EVERYONE reads it.

Mark

[Ken Brown]

Originally Posted by MEB

Ken,

You might want to bold that "If there is an error" comment in the 7th paragraph. Otherwise, someone might read just the part that comes after it and start telling everyone on the internet that you just said there is a replacement program already in the works.



BTW, a very logical and nicely worded message! If only EVERYONE reads it.

Mark

Whew, thanks for pointing that out. It's been bolded!

This thread should auto-bold the word "if"

[mrpink134]

Thanks Ken for the words of wisdom

[bokuma]

For the constant seekers of the justification of their beliefs that everything's OK with FOTR EE BD, for whatever reason they are doing it: Can anyone take into consideration the now obvious fact that there's no natural white in the entire movie, not even in the title (which is (was) white, believe it or not). There should be only one logic here, even if you refuse to see it with your own eyes, and even if you don't mind watching it with green tint because you've nothing to compare it with while watching. There's no answer or comment from PJ that can make me believe that there was no error in the process of making FOTR EE BD.

Hopefully, the number of so called ''naysayers'' will increase and maybe then we'll get the chance to see the proper FOTR EE BD.

CHEERS

[Velmeran]

I think Ken nailed it again (he's on fire when it comes to this whole LotR release!).

Once you start looking at the debates, as two instead of one it becomes a lot easier to see and understand (maybe not accept, but at least understand) the viewpoints from the other side.

I know once Stinky clarified some of his thoughts and I realized his biggest beef from a revisionist standpoint, all of his comments took on a new light.

[MEB]

Originally Posted by Ken Brown

This thread should auto-bold the word "if"

Mark

[MEB]

Originally Posted by Velmeran

Once you start looking at the debates, as two instead of one it becomes a lot easier to see and understand (maybe not accept, but at least understand) the viewpoints from the other side.

That's what I've been trying to say too. That there might be a difference between what Peter Jackson and Lesnie approved and what ended up on the Blu-ray. It would still be true that Jackson and Lesnie approved new color timing, just not the additional color change seen on the Blu-ray.

Ken did a MUCH better job of explaining it with the whole debate #1 & #2 approach.

I'm not worthy!!

Mark