The Lord of the Rings: The Motion Picture Trilogy (Extended Edition) (2001-2003)

[n8boss87]

Originally Posted by Ken Brown

Long story short, patience and civility is the only way to proceed. Warner isn't going to be swayed into anything by complaints. They'll do so because they won't want one of their most beloved films to be sullied by a production error. That's why they went back to the original 2K source for this transfer - to honor fans' wishes for a purer experience. Rest easy, gents. If there is an error, it will be dealt with. If there isn't, a statement will be made just the same.

The debacle over this very same film the last time around did not produce a recall or any kind of "help" for consumers who got a DNR'd to death pile of crap. they tried to make good on THAT one here with this one, and *if* etc etc, then they failed again.

they didn't make good the first time they botched FOTR, and that was just one disc. this time, it's two discs. double the cost on a recall. they'll just triple dip, and DNR the hell out of the green. pretty soon the entire film will look like a god damned mosaic, we'll be on our 400th dip, and we'll still have problems.

the only way to get them to do something is to have UNIFORM, COORDINATED displays of displeasure. not some crappy petition. Paramount has done recalls. Disney and Sony have done recalls. has WB *ever* officially recalled a disc, instead of secretly doing a re-encode (The Fugitive, similar situation to The Descent), adding confusion on top of anger?

Great post, Ken, but optimism, i just never have it.

[retablo]

Originally Posted by Ken Brown

Long story short, patience and civility is the only way to proceed. Warner isn't going to be swayed into anything by complaints. They'll do so because they won't want one of their most beloved films to be sullied by a production error. That's why they went back to the original 2K source for this transfer - to honor fans' wishes for a purer experience. Rest easy, gents. If there is an error, it will be dealt with. If there isn't, a statement will be made just the same.

Precisely.

[The Blufather]

Think I'm going to cancel my preorder from Amazon. From what I've seen, don't like the green tint, it's pretty obvious. If they make a correction in the future or if they ride with this one, I'll still get it, eventually. But not for $84. I failed to jump on some of the other deals people are getting for this release and I have to think it's going to be less than $84, sometime this year. So I think I'll wait till all this plays out, see more reviews after this is released everywhere and wait for the price to drop a little.

I know I can use the BN coupon for 10% off but does anybody know of any other better deals out there?

[PGW]

(Ken wrote)
"That said, buying the set is still a safe bet. If there is an error, I would imagine it is already being dealt with, a statement is already being prepared and a replacement program is already being planned. Again, if there is an error. No matter what, fans will receive the correct discs they are paying for -- be it the first ones they buy or replacements, if there was indeed an error. "

I don't agree that buying this is a "safe bet" because I don't believe that the company deserves to be rewarded for greenafying FOTR (whether intentional or not). If I buy it and they come out and say "Green is good! Green is right!" I've spent $80 for a film I cannot watch. To me, that isn't "safe"... it's stupid.

But thank you very much for attempting to follow up on this. As you said, the silence on the part of the powers-that-be is, indeed, very suggestive.

Personally, even if they come out and claim this wasn't a mistake, I won't believe them. Given the color scheme of the previous DVD and blu-ray issues, the fact that the other two films HAVEN'T been tinted AND common sense... I can't believe this is anything other than a terrible error (and, consequently, I can understand why some people in high places must have some serious egg on their faces right about now).

[blu2]

Originally Posted by bokuma

For the constant seekers of the justification of their beliefs that everything's OK with FOTR EE BD, for whatever reason they are doing it: Can anyone take into consideration the now obvious fact that there's no natural white in the entire movie, not even in the title (which is (was) white, believe it or not).

Seriously? Any links to screenshot comparisons of the titles?

[Stinky-Dinkins]

Originally Posted by Ken Brown

[(As evidenced in shots like Isildur's more naturally colored face in the beginning of FOTR, and the more subdued palette in Rivendell.)

Much of this though, I think, is the result of the overbearing green tint consistent throughout the entire thing rather than an intentional portion-by-portion digital re-grading. I think if it were removed it would restore the warm feel of the original color timing in these shots. Just as the green tint affects one's perception of the flames of the Balrog (as you mentioned) it also affects the image in all of the other scenes where it was once warm and had a red bias, so - I think there's some overlap between the two debates. In a scene where heavy reds were evident before I think the green tint tends to "balance" out the shot and make it almost more true-to-life (which is why some seem to prefer it with the new color timing) whereas in a neutral shot with a bunch of whites and grays (like the snow scenes) the green tint is much more obvious.

Either way, as much as I complain about it I'm still not cancelling my preorder. I just love the movies too much (and prefer the EE over the TE.) I figure if it is altered/fixed in the future I'll get it replaced but I'm not sitting around and waiting to see if it happens and missing out on watching it in the meantime. This new color timing is a big disappointment in my opinion, but not a deal breaker. The DNR abuse didn't stop me from buying the TE, so I don't know, maybe I'm an easy mark.

Originally Posted by blu2

Seriously? Any links to screenshot comparisons of the titles?

http://www.avsforum.com/avs-vb/showp...postcount=1794

It's consistent with the same level of green seen in the once-white (but now green) Rivendell awakening shot.

[greg_achen]

Originally Posted by Stinky-Dinkins

Either way, as much as I complain about it I'm still not cancelling my preorder. I just love the movies too much (and prefer the EE over the TE.) I figure if it is altered/fixed in the future I'll get it replaced but I'm not sitting around and waiting to see if it happens and missing out on watching it in the meantime. This new color timing is a big disappointment in my opinion, but not a deal breaker. The DNR abuse didn't stop me from buying the TE, so I don't know, maybe I'm an easy mark.

Ultimately that's how I feel. I think what aggravates and impassions people so much who are disappointed in this release is the fact that Fellowship is so close to being "perfect" and the problem, while glaring, is so easy to fix. Once again, this is assuming the green tint throughout is 100% not intentional which it may very well be.

[Ken Brown]

Originally Posted by n8boss87

The debacle over this very same film the last time around did not produce a recall or any kind of "help" for consumers who got a DNR'd to death pile of crap. they tried to make good on THAT one here with this one, and *if* etc etc, then they failed again.

they didn't make good the first time they botched FOTR, and that was just one disc. this time, it's two discs. double the cost on a recall. they'll just triple dip, and DNR the hell out of the green. pretty soon the entire film will look like a god damned mosaic, we'll be on our 400th dip, and we'll still have problems.

the only way to get them to do something is to have UNIFORM, COORDINATED displays of displeasure. not some crappy petition. Paramount has done recalls. Disney and Sony have done recalls. has WB *ever* officially recalled a disc, instead of secretly doing a re-encode (The Fugitive, similar situation to The Descent), adding confusion on top of anger?

Great post, Ken, but optimism, i just never have it.

The difference is that DNR is a technique applied intentionally in a transfer. (Awful as it may be.) If the green overcast is an error, it isn't intentional by Jackson or the studio, and will most certainly be rectified. No optimism required. Again, if it is an error

The good news is the silence from the studio and filmmakers on the controversy bodes well in this regard. If Warner, Jackson or Lesnie were going to lie about the situation, they would have done so a week ago, before the controversy built up so much steam. And there's simply too much attention being drawn to it for them to try and ignore it altogether in the long term.

That said, I in no way mean to suggest people shouldn't express dissatisfaction or make their complaints known. Just that the dissatisfaction is very clear to all involved at the moment. Dissatisfaction brought the issue to light and will eventually earn everyone who's interested an official answer on the matter. In other words, complain away, just don't turn on each other. (At least until there are more definitive facts and statements that don't involve theories and conjecture.) At the moment, the debate hinges on an official response.

Hope that helps clarify!

[Ken Brown]

Originally Posted by PGW

(Ken wrote)
"That said, buying the set is still a safe bet. If there is an error, I would imagine it is already being dealt with, a statement is already being prepared and a replacement program is already being planned. Again, if there is an error. No matter what, fans will receive the correct discs they are paying for -- be it the first ones they buy or replacements, if there was indeed an error. "

I don't agree that buying this is a "safe bet" because I don't believe that the company deserves to be rewarded for greenafying FOTR (whether intentional or not). If I buy it and they come out and say "Green is good! Green is right!" I've spent $80 for a film I cannot watch. To me, that isn't "safe"... it's stupid.

But thank you very much for attempting to follow up on this. As you said, the silence on the part of the powers-that-be is, indeed, very suggestive.

Personally, even if they come out and claim this wasn't a mistake, I won't believe them. Given the color scheme of the previous DVD and blu-ray issues, the fact that the other two films HAVEN'T been tinted AND common sense... I can't believe this is anything other than a terrible error (and, consequently, I can understand why some people in high places must have some serious egg on their faces right about now).

More clarification

What I meant was that if it is an error, they'll institute a replacement program. If it isn't an error, this is what FOTR is meant to look like. (According to the official response.) Either way, consumers will either initially or eventually have the discs Warner and Jackson mean for them to have. I didn't mean "safe bet" to mean "you'll suddenly love the green if it's officially confirmed!"

Warning: this mindset may require a small measure of optimism

[Milambian]

Originally Posted by Ken Brown

The difference is that DNR is a technique applied intentionally in a transfer. (Awful as it may be.) If the green overcast is an error, it isn't intentional by Jackson or the studio, and will most certainly be rectified. No optimism required. Again, if it is an error

That said, I in no way meant to say people shouldn't express dissatisfaction or make their complaints known. Just that the dissatisfaction is very clear to all involved at the moment. In other words, complain away, just don't turn on each other. (At least until there are more definitive facts and statements that don't involve theories and conjecture.) At the moment, the debate hinges on an official response. Hope that helps clarify!

Ken,

Thank you for being so even-headed and reasonable throughout this entire debate. Without an official response from Mr. Jackson, I don't feel we have the information needed to decide whether this was a production error or completely intentional. Your responses bring a much-needed level-headed voice to the table.

I have been considering this debate, and have found myself flopping from buy to not-buy back and forth repeatedly for a couple days. Barring some extreme change of events in the next week, I have decided to go ahead and keep my preorder. If it turns out that this was a production error, I am fairly confident that a replacement program will follow. If it turns out that this was the express interest of Mr. Jackson et al, well, I will just have to deal with it, if I want the EE in HD, as it would then be far more unlikely that there would be a retraction in the future.

Cheers,
Matt

[Archangel630]

Originally Posted by Ken Brown

I think some of the confusion and hostility in this thread is coming from combining two debates into one.

Debate #1: Jackson and Lesnie certainly re-graded portions of the film, and it's evident throughout the EE of FOTR. This has been confirmed for some time and no one should be debating the new color grading's presence on the disc. It is intentional. (As evidenced in shots like Isildur's more naturally colored face in the beginning of FOTR, and the more subdued palette in Rivendell.) Debate on this issue comes down to film revisionism, nothing more. The new color grading, though, could be (could be) completely separate from the green tint we are seeing.

Debate #2: The green/cyan overcast is a separate debate. FOTR has always been a film that uses a palette heavy in greens. However, there is a full-image green tint that appears throughout. This is not how digital color grading works, at least not as Jackson and Lesnie have employed it on two cuts of three three-plus-hour films. (Not to mention the films that followed LOTR in which Jackson relied on digital color grading.) Digital color grading is applied on a region by region basis. Up the reds in faces, up the greens in fields, darken the whites in snow, dull the blue in skies etc. The green/cyan overcast debate comes down to whether Jackson and Lesnie re-graded the film and then decided to apply an extra full-image tint to most, if not all, of their scenes. (It may not be apparent in some scenes, but if new images from a corrected transfer were issued, the differences in the predominately red and blue-cast images would suddenly be apparent. A slight green tint won't suddenly make every blue and red look green. But it will subtly alter the tone of the reds and blues being observed. Comparing shots of Gandalf vs. the Balrog in FOTR to the very same shots in TTT seems to confirm this. The fiery FOTR shots exhibit slightly different reds and oranges than the same fiery TTT shots.)

Ultimately, we know that Jackson and Lesnie re-graded the film and approved all their color changes. But it's also quite possible that a green tint - separate from their new color grade and intentions - was accidentally applied to the full image at some point in the production of the retail discs. The consistency of the green overlay does suggest the very real possibility of an error. It's far from certain but, at the very least, it is, upon careful reflection, strange.

It's also important to note that the increased detail observed in screenshots and the actual image is a product of the new 2K-source transfer, not the new color grading or any green overlay. If a new transfer were issued without the green overlay, the detail and other improvements in the image would not be diminished. If anything, the improvements could possibly be more apparent.

Of all the evidence and arguments being batted around, the complete silence on the controversy from the studio and the filmmakers is the surest sign that there very well may be an error. (I'm not saying there definitely is, but if it was simply intention, logic dictates there would be a statement on the matter to clear things up before the sets, which already shipped to retailers before the controversy began to brew, hit the market.) Every e-mail I send, every call I make, either receives no response or gets a "no official statement has been issued at this time."

That said, buying the set is still a safe bet. If there is an error, I would imagine it is already being dealt with, a statement is already being prepared and a replacement program is already being planned. Again, if there is an error. No matter what, fans will receive the correct discs they are paying for -- be it the first ones they buy or replacements, if there was indeed an error.

Long story short, patience and civility is the only way to proceed. Warner isn't going to be swayed into anything by complaints. They'll do so because they won't want one of their most beloved films to be sullied by a production error. That's why they went back to the original 2K source for this transfer - to honor fans' wishes for a purer experience. Rest easy, gents. If there is an error, it will be dealt with. If there isn't, a statement will be made just the same.

I was skeptical at first, but having seen that the regrading process has affected the entire film, I think it's clear that it's an error. If it were a choice, it's one of the worst ones made when it comes to such a high profile title.

That being said, it won't be fixed by ship-time, if ever. Again, for those who have waited for so long to see the extended editions of these films, and expect the same quality inherent in their original dvd releases, these don't cut it, and until a decision is made to swap out film 1 for a new print, I can rest easy not purchasing these right out of the gate and waiting. In the process it even saves a few bucks.

[Maggot]

Originally Posted by Ken Brown

I think some of the confusion and hostility in this thread is coming from combining two debates into one.

Debate #1: Jackson and Lesnie certainly re-graded portions of the film, and it's evident throughout the EE of FOTR. This has been confirmed for some time and no one should be debating the new color grading's presence on the disc. It is intentional. (As evidenced in shots like Isildur's more naturally colored face in the beginning of FOTR, and the more subdued palette in Rivendell.) Debate on this issue comes down to film revisionism, nothing more. The new color grading, though, could be (could be) completely separate from the green tint we are seeing.

Debate #2: The green/cyan overcast is a separate debate. FOTR has always been a film that uses a palette heavy in greens. However, there is a full-image green tint that appears throughout. This is not how digital color grading works, at least not as Jackson and Lesnie have employed it on two cuts of three three-plus-hour films. (Not to mention the films that followed LOTR in which Jackson relied on digital color grading.) Digital color grading is applied on a region by region basis. Up the reds in faces, up the greens in fields, darken the whites in snow, dull the blue in skies etc. The green/cyan overcast debate comes down to whether Jackson and Lesnie re-graded the film and then decided to apply an extra full-image tint to most, if not all, of their scenes. (It may not be apparent in some scenes, but if new images from a corrected transfer were issued, the differences in the predominately red and blue-cast images would suddenly be apparent. A slight green tint won't suddenly make every blue and red look green. But it will subtly alter the tone of the reds and blues being observed. Comparing shots of Gandalf vs. the Balrog in FOTR to the very same shots in TTT seems to confirm this. The fiery FOTR shots exhibit slightly different reds and oranges than the same fiery TTT shots.)

Ultimately, we know that Jackson and Lesnie re-graded the film and approved all their color changes. But it's also quite possible that a green tint - separate from their new color grade and intentions - was accidentally applied to the full image at some point in the production of the retail discs. The consistency of the green overlay does suggest the very real possibility of an error. It's far from certain but, at the very least, it is, upon careful reflection, strange.

It's also important to note that the increased detail observed in screenshots and the actual image is a product of the new 2K-source transfer, not the new color grading or any green overlay. If a new transfer were issued without the green overlay, the detail and other improvements in the image would not be diminished. If anything, the improvements could possibly be more apparent.

Of all the evidence and arguments being batted around, the complete silence on the controversy from the studio and the filmmakers is the surest sign that there very well may be an error. (I'm not saying there definitely is, but if it was simply intention, logic dictates there would be a statement on the matter to clear things up before the sets, which already shipped to retailers before the controversy began to brew, hit the market.) Every e-mail I send, every call I make, either receives no response or gets a "no official statement has been issued at this time."

That said, buying the set is still a safe bet. If there is an error, I would imagine it is already being dealt with, a statement is already being prepared and a replacement program is already being planned. Again, if there is an error. No matter what, fans will receive the correct discs they are paying for -- be it the first ones they buy or replacements, if there was indeed an error.

Long story short, patience and civility is the only way to proceed. Warner isn't going to be swayed into anything by complaints. They'll do so because they won't want one of their most beloved films to be sullied by a production error. That's why they went back to the original 2K source for this transfer - to honor fans' wishes for a purer experience. Rest easy, gents. If there is an error, it will be dealt with. If there isn't, a statement will be made just the same.

Considering WB went back for a 2K rescan, then where is the disc replacement program for the flawed TE of Fellowship's? Seriously, I realize these are the EE's, but WB knows the displeasure regarding the TE of Fellowship, so they went back and did it right for the EE's regarding detail, but again where's the fix for the TE? It's been like a year since the original TE of Fellowship came out with all it's detail flaws. Where's the replacement disc? By going back with a rescan and fixing things, they basically are admitting it. You haven't heard anything about a replacement program for that and I suspect you never will. With regard to the green EE of Fellowship, all they have to say is this was the intent and wash their hands of it.

[aiman04]

I have to cancel my pre-order until official statement from Jackson/Lesnie released. The thing is, as an international customer a replacement program won't be easy. This should've been a great gift from my wife, it would arrive at my doorstep exactly on my birthday.

[Maggot]

Also, look what happened the first time around, when people saw and complained about the PQ issues with the TE of Fellowship, WB had the screens removed.....what does that tell you about their intentions and nature?

[SkillzthatKillz]

Try to keep the discussion civil please. No need for any kind of personal attacks maggot

[Velmeran]

Originally Posted by Stinky-Dinkins

If these are both true and I tell him I'm a robot he will be devastated, or you will be. Something big will happen, fact.

I don't know what to think now.

Hahaha, I don't even know what this debate is. Who came out the winner here?!?

The rest of us who got to sit back and watch that witty exchange and then enjoy your suggested paradox.

Originally Posted by SkillzthatKillz

Try to keep the discussion civil please. No need for any kind of personal attacks maggot

The personnel attacks have been going on for a while now; doubtful they'll stop anytime soon without more account suspensions occurring.
(figured at least 1 ban and 1 suspension would have toned things down for longer than 24 hours -- Edit: Make that at least 2 bans and 2 suspensions, though to be fair no way I can confirm all were the result of actions in this thread.)

[georgec]

It's a shame that LOTR has found itself a controversy not unlike that of the Star Wars OT (unaltered vs. special/2004/? editions). Not saying this color timing is the same as changing content/scenes/dialogue in SW, but it has sparked a similar level of debate.

[Velmeran]

Originally Posted by georgec

It's a shame that LOTR has found itself a controversy not unlike that of the Star Wars OT (unaltered vs. special/2004/? editions). Not saying this color timing is the same as changing content/scenes/dialogue in SW, but it has sparked a similar level of debate.

That's partially the issue with thread --- if the only thing being debated right now was the merits of the color grade as originally presented on the EE DVD's vs those of the new color grade (as approved by PJ and Co.) then I believe this thread would be a whole lot more civil.

But sadly we also have to contend with the debate over whither the color grade that is currently residing on the discs, is in fact the version which was approved by PJ and Co.

Gets to be a bit of a cluster*uck when the 2 debates get mixed into one.


edit, went back and took Ken's advice with a bolding of if.

[nathan_393]

I don't know if y'all realize this, but this debate has been going on for over 100 pages.
OVER 100 PAGES.

There's only so much that can be said about the same thing, folks.

Regardless, there's not much more any of us can do at this point beyond wait for a statement, as plenty of people have said already and will probably continue to say until there is a statement. Until then, I look forward to having the films on Blu and being able to enjoy them with excellent HD transfers for the first time.

[Scooter1836]

Originally Posted by Ken Brown

The difference is that DNR is a technique applied intentionally in a transfer. (Awful as it may be.) If the green overcast is an error, it isn't intentional by Jackson or the studio, and will most certainly be rectified. No optimism required. Again, if it is an error

The good news is the silence from the studio and filmmakers on the controversy bodes well in this regard. If Warner, Jackson or Lesnie were going to lie about the situation, they would have done so a week ago, before the controversy built up so much steam. And there's simply too much attention being drawn to it for them to try and ignore it altogether in the long term.

That said, I in no way mean to suggest people shouldn't express dissatisfaction or make their complaints known. Just that the dissatisfaction is very clear to all involved at the moment. Dissatisfaction brought the issue to light and will eventually earn everyone who's interested an official answer on the matter. In other words, complain away, just don't turn on each other. (At least until there are more definitive facts and statements that don't involve theories and conjecture.) At the moment, the debate hinges on an official response.

Hope that helps clarify!

Good post

I thought they would have punched themselves out by now.

If it is an error we will hear something after release date.

At this point we need to be constructive and not just go over and over and over criticizing others and the transfer.

After you get your copy (and only then after you have seen it) formal complaints need to be lodged directly to Warner need to be made. Factual and non emotioal if you feel the error is there.

Let's face it, Warner probably knows and they will probably do something if it is bad.