The Lord of the Rings: The Motion Picture Trilogy (Extended Edition) (2001-2003)

[Cinemaddict]

Here is an interesting question: Does the Balrog scene have the green tint? If so, is it also green during the opening scene in Two Towers?

[radagast]

Originally Posted by Velmeran

It's actually been ... quiet today --- which is actually nice for a change of pace. I think most of us have said what needed to be said. We have no new information, it's just the same things we've had for a week now. Can only say the same thing so many ways. Oh and people finally learned the difference between Opinion and Fact, so that helps keep things a bit calmer too

Even ranters need to stop once in a while to either get some oxygen or let their hands rest. Some of these folks must have some serious cramps going on.

[DarthV]

Originally Posted by Brodo Faggins

So apparently 1 in 12 men are colour blind or have some kind of mild colour blindness. That explains a few things about those who see nothing wrong with the picture.

Originally Posted by ZoetMB

Not necessarily. Color blindness is usually not that you can't see a color. It's that you can't distinguish between different colors of the same intensity when you see them together.

It's not only that, the human brain will do color correction on the fly. That's why we don't go batshit crazy when going from daylight, to incandescent to fluorescent lighting! Go get your digital camera, set it to daylight lighting and take some pics under different (halogen, fluro, flash etc) and you'll see what I mean. Our brain and eyes lie :P

To me, the new color timing reminds me of how my oakley polarized ice iridium lenses handle daylight a couple hours before sunset. less blue, more green!

I compared the 1080p FOTR EE on my calibrated monitor with the 1080p FOTR. The teal coloration was quite obvious during a lot of scenes. But when I watched it on my calibrated 52" LCD through my HTPC, it didn't really look bad at all.

I'll go out on a limb and say that a LOT of people will buy and watch this set and absolutely love it. Why? Without some sort of reference of true white, most won't notice the new color timing.

That being said, I'd love to see bright white snow and blue skies

[Parasite68]

Okay, I've been reading everyone's posts on the whole color change/timing issue. Here's the thing... I totally respect everyone's opinion. Most people are still upset about the treatment of FOTR's theatrical blu... Now the color has been tampered with on the beloved Extended Editions... but, everyone has to remember that Peter Jackson himself sat in and authorized the new look. Everyone is hoping that if enough complaints are heard, that they'll "fix" it and release them the way they should look. If they do this, ultimately the average fan of this franchise will have purchased at least two theatrical versions (one on DVD and one on blu), and now 2 EE's (DVD and this new one on blu) with possibly a 5th purchase with a "fixed" one... All the while Peter Jackson is laughing all the way to the bank... What I'm getting at is this may be all part of a master plan to keep milking this franchise and making a ton of money... I'm hoping that the color changes won't affect the films too much and that the reason of it is possibly to keep the look up to the newer technology that will be used on the Hobbit movies... As much as I'm a fan of this franchise, I am tired of repurchasing the same old stuff with small gimmicks added to them... Anyone else feel the same?

[Velmeran]

Originally Posted by Parasite68

Okay, I've been reading everyone's posts on the whole color change/timing issue. Here's the thing... I totally respect everyone's opinion. Most people are still upset about the treatment of FOTR's theatrical blu... Now the color has been tampered with on the beloved Extended Editions... but, everyone has to remember that Peter Jackson himself sat in and authorized the new look. Everyone is hoping that if enough complaints are heard, that they'll "fix" it and release them the way they should look. If they do this, ultimately the average fan of this franchise will have purchased at least two theatrical versions (one on DVD and one on blu), and now 2 EE's (DVD and this new one on blu) with possibly a 5th purchase with a "fixed" one... All the while Peter Jackson is laughing all the way to the bank... What I'm getting at is this may be all part of a master plan to keep milking this franchise and making a ton of money... I'm hoping that the color changes won't affect the films too much and that the reason of it is possibly to keep the look up to the newer technology that will be used on the Hobbit movies... As much as I'm a fan of this franchise, I am tired of repurchasing the same old stuff with small gimmicks added to them... Anyone else feel the same?

Well there two debates currently being discussed in this thread, and sometimes appear to blend into one (which leads to a mess).

Ken seemed to state it best:

Originally Posted by Ken Brown

I think some of the confusion and hostility in this thread is coming from combining two debates into one.

Debate #1: Jackson and Lesnie certainly re-graded portions of the film, and it's evident throughout the EE of FOTR. This has been confirmed for some time and no one should be debating the new color grading's presence on the disc. It is intentional. (As evidenced in shots like Isildur's more naturally colored face in the beginning of FOTR, and the more subdued palette in Rivendell.) Debate on this issue comes down to film revisionism, nothing more. The new color grading, though, could be (could be) completely separate from the green tint we are seeing.

Debate #2: The green/cyan overcast is a separate debate. FOTR has always been a film that uses a palette heavy in greens. However, there is a full-image green tint that appears throughout. This is not how digital color grading works, at least not as Jackson and Lesnie have employed it on two cuts of three three-plus-hour films. (Not to mention the films that followed LOTR in which Jackson relied on digital color grading.) Digital color grading is applied on a region by region basis. Up the reds in faces, up the greens in fields, darken the whites in snow, dull the blue in skies etc. The green/cyan overcast debate comes down to whether Jackson and Lesnie re-graded the film and then decided to apply an extra full-image tint to most, if not all, of their scenes. (It may not be apparent in some scenes, but if new images from a corrected transfer were issued, the differences in the predominately red and blue-cast images would suddenly be apparent. A slight green tint won't suddenly make every blue and red look green. But it will subtly alter the tone of the reds and blues being observed. Comparing shots of Gandalf vs. the Balrog in FOTR to the very same shots in TTT seems to confirm this. The fiery FOTR shots exhibit slightly different reds and oranges than the same fiery TTT shots.)

Ultimately, we know that Jackson and Lesnie re-graded the film and approved all their color changes. But it's also quite possible that a green tint - separate from their new color grade and intentions - was accidentally applied to the full image at some point in the production of the retail discs. The consistency of the green overlay does suggest the very real possibility of an error. It's far from certain but, at the very least, it is, upon careful reflection, strange.

It's also important to note that the increased detail observed in screenshots and the actual image is a product of the new 2K-source transfer, not the new color grading or any green overlay. If a new transfer were issued without the green overlay, the detail and other improvements in the image would not be diminished. If anything, the improvements could possibly be more apparent.

Of all the evidence and arguments being batted around, the complete silence on the controversy from the studio and the filmmakers is the surest sign that there very well may be an error. (I'm not saying there definitely is, but if it was simply intention, logic dictates there would be a statement on the matter to clear things up before the sets, which already shipped to retailers before the controversy began to brew, hit the market.) Every e-mail I send, every call I make, either receives no response or gets a "no official statement has been issued at this time."

That said, buying the set is still a safe bet. If there is an error, I would imagine it is already being dealt with, a statement is already being prepared and a replacement program is already being planned. Again, if there is an error. No matter what, fans will receive the correct discs they are paying for -- be it the first ones they buy or replacements, if there was indeed an error.

Long story short, patience and civility is the only way to proceed. Warner isn't going to be swayed into anything by complaints. They'll do so because they won't want one of their most beloved films to be sullied by a production error. That's why they went back to the original 2K source for this transfer - to honor fans' wishes for a purer experience. Rest easy, gents. If there is an error, it will be dealt with. If there isn't, a statement will be made just the same.

[Danielle Ni Dhighe]

Originally Posted by Parasite68

but, everyone has to remember that Peter Jackson himself sat in and authorized the new look.

This has not been confirmed. We know that Jackson did new color timings and approved a master at some point, but that doesn't mean he approved what is actually on the Blu-rays themselves. There are enough steps in-between where something could have been messed up. Until there's an official statement, it's all speculation.

All the while Peter Jackson is laughing all the way to the bank...

Well, WHV certainly is.

[frogmort]

Originally Posted by Parasite68

... but, everyone has to remember that Peter Jackson himself sat in and authorized the new look.

There is a big difference between color grading, and giving an entire film a dull green look. They are not the same thing.

If/when they correct the problem, there will not be a whole new release for this. They will probably quietly replace FotR in only newly made product; they won't pull the existing ones off of the shelves, and hopefully, if you already own the green tint version, you can call, and they will mail you the two replacement discs. It would be vastly cheaper for them to do it this way.

I for one will not be buying this until it gets fixed.

[Stinky-Dinkins]

Originally Posted by Cinemaddict

Here is an interesting question: Does the Balrog scene have the green tint? If so, is it also green during the opening scene in Two Towers?

Yes, the green tint is present during this portion. Due to the way the colors interact with one another the flames now look slightly less red than they did before.

TTT is faithful to its original color timing, however the flashback scenes in it have always looked slightly different than they did in FotR. Even if FotR had remained faithful to its original color timing it still wouldn't match up perfectly to the same scene in TTT.

Originally Posted by Velmeran

Well there two debates currently being discussed in this thread, and sometimes appear to blend into one (which leads to a mess).

Ken seemed to state it best:

It could be that certain scenes that appear to have been intentionally re-graded haven't actually been so. It could be that the way the new tint interacts with the pre-existing color timing alters one's perception of how the image appears (as I said here.)

[Velmeran]

Originally Posted by Stinky-Dinkins

It could be that certain scenes that appear to have been intentionally re-graded haven't actually been so. It could be that the way the new tint interacts with the pre-existing color timing alters one's perception of how the image appears (as I said here.)

Possibly, but we do have official confirmation (several legit reviewers, plus Jackson himself said so in the introduction video shown before FotR last week) that there was a color regrade.

Plus we have ads with the generic "as it was originally meant to be seen" line in them.

Again, whither that regrade is what is currently on the discs remains to be seen (well confirmed really, but had to finish off the cliche)

[ckocher]

Originally Posted by frogmort

There is a big difference between color grading, and giving an entire film a dull green look. They are not the same thing.

If/when they correct the problem, there will not be a whole new release for this. They will probably quietly replace FotR in only newly made product; they won't pull the existing ones off of the shelves, and hopefully, if you already own the green tint version, you can call, and they will mail you the two replacement discs. It would be vastly cheaper for them to do it this way.

I for one will not be buying this until it gets fixed.

But if this is intentional why would they fix it? Would WB go against the wishes of the director?

[Velmeran]

Originally Posted by ckocher

But if this is intentional why would they fix it? Would WB go against the wishes of the director?

We don't know yet if it's intentional or not -- there in lies 1 of the issues/debate subjects.

[Parasite68]

Ever since I saw FOTR EE at the theater last week, Ive been noticing a green tint on everything!

I hope this clears up in time for the blurays next week!

[frogmort]

Originally Posted by ckocher

But if this is intentional why would they fix it? Would WB go against the wishes of the director?

No, but like I said, there is a difference between color grading, and giving an entire film a dull green look. That dull green look of the entire film is not the same thing as color grading, which Peter Jackson did to the movie.

[WorkShed]

Originally Posted by ckocher

But if this is intentional why would they fix it? Would WB go against the wishes of the director?

If WBHV made the mistake and they fix it, then it wouldn't be going against the wishes of the director. You assume that Jackson signed off on a green/teal filter instead of a 30% extra regrade on the scenes he didn't get a chance to grade originally.

[42041]

Originally Posted by ckocher

But if this is intentional why would they fix it? Would WB go against the wishes of the director?

The specifics of what was intentional and what wasn't are not known yet.
Subtle errors slip by, even past filmmakers. Braveheart was remastered with the supervision/approval of the cinematographer, and the first 20 minutes of that film have subtle jaggies, which I assume, at least, were not intentional. The greenness could be subtle as well, depending on how it was viewed.

[WorkShed]

Originally Posted by Farid

Why is Bill Hunt not writing about this in his Daily Column? He'd normally do that.
That way we can generate more buzz and potentially get the studio/PJ to react.

He doesn't feel there is any problem. It also doesn't help that he's received several horrible emails and had been verbally assaulted on several forums. I think he won't mention the controversy unless Jackson says the BDs look perfect or if there is delay/exchange with the release.

[Parasite68]

Originally Posted by ckocher

But if this is intentional why would they fix it? Would WB go against the wishes of the director?

If they figure they could profit off of it, they would do it... As long as Peter Jacskon's name is included in the credits, he gets paid. It's a win win situatiOn for them. The more versions fans are wanting and willing to buy, the more money they make. They could intentionally put out a version they know the masses will begrudgingly buy at first with the intention of selling the version they know people ultimately want... Sound familiar? Less than a year ago, the theatrical versions came out with no word when the EE's would be released... Now, bang! Here they are, but it's not gonna be the same cause now the color is wrong... Oh well... We'll buy it anyway... 8 months from now, they'll admit they goofed and sell the fixed version... Then 8 months later it'll be a 3d, hd, scratch and sniff version... The cash cow grazes on!

[Velmeran]

Originally Posted by WorkShed

He doesn't feel there is any problem. It also doesn't help that he's received several horrible emails and had been verbally assaulted on several forums. I think he won't mention the controversy unless Jackson says the BDs look perfect or if there is delay/exchange with the release.

It's not just Bill Hunt (though since I believe he was the first reviewer to get a review up, he has faced more).

Robert Harris, Ralph Potts, and to a lesser degree (at least, on this forum) Ken Brown have all received similar treatment.

[Maggot]

Unfortunately, most people won't see a problem as most people don't really pay attention anyhow. It's only really those who are fans and remember the original color timings AND OR those of us who are in video/film production OR still photography(in my case) that can easily recognize the issue.

[ReverendSlim]

Originally Posted by Farid

Why is Bill Hunt not writing about this in his Daily Column? He'd normally do that.
That way we can generate more buzz and potentially get the studio/PJ to react.

Why would he write about it? He has already written, "I've confirmed with production-related sources that Jackson and cinematographer Andrew Lesnie were directly involved in all decisions related to this new transfer and approved it personally. So to the extent that there are changes to the color-timing, they were made at Jackson and Lesnie's direction - the films look exactly as they want them to."

Seems pretty definitive to me.