The Lord of the Rings: The Motion Picture Trilogy (Extended Edition) (2001-2003)

[kingkong650]

Nice comparison, diman1982. Just thought I'd add my regraded version to the comparison to show what it would look like without the green tint:

Originally Posted by diman1982

HDTV


Bluray EE


Taken from regraded version of fotr ee blu-ray to remove the consistent green tint:

[NYorker]

I for one am very grateful WB had nothing to do with the actual filming of the LOTR trilogy. For one, I don't think they'd have the guts to pull it off, and two, they'd probably want to split it into five or six movies to cash in more. A reminder to WB: just because you bought New Line Cinema doesn't give you any credit associated with creating LOTR.

[karlosfunkster]

Originally Posted by Ken Brown

Jackson and Lesnie re-graded the film. That has been confirmed. Then one of two things happened. They either intentionally added a consistent green/cyan tint to the entire image they re-graded or an error occurred in which a green/cyan tint was inadvertently added later in the process.

Much of the confusion and conflicting subjective analyses/opinions stem from people mistakenly assuming the entire image will appear green-ish. A slight green/cyan tint wouldn't and doesn't make everything look green; it simply alters every hue that appears on screen. In some FOTR shots, the tint is obvious. In others it is not. That doesn't mean it isn't there. It is always there, always affecting the colors present on the screen. The objective evidence of a prevailing tint is irrefutable.

However, whether the image looks great or not isn't the issue. It looks quite good, and boasts many improvements. (All of which trace back to Warner starting from the original 2K source, not Jackson's aesthetic re-grade.) The issue is whether the image as it appears is what Jackson intended. If it is, all he needs to do is say, "hey guys, the tint you've made me well aware of? It's all good. That's what I want." He's had two weeks to do so as the controversy has burned hotter and hotter. He has not. That says something. Jackson answers his fans all the time, addresses his filmmaking techniques constantly. Silence on this sort of topic shouldn't be taken lightly, and indicates something other than intention.

As I see it, this really isn't about whiny fans. It's just about getting the transfer Jackson wants FOTR fans to have into their hands. If the post-color-grade green/cyan tint is intentional, he only needs clarify that it was, indeed, an intentional move made or approved by himself or Lesnie. If the tint is the product of an error, though, it deserves to be corrected. All signs at the moment point toward it being an error, and those signs are mounting. No objective evidence has emerged that indicates the tint is intentional. There have been subjective reports that "it isn't there," which is inaccurate. Or subjective reports that amount to, "I just don't see it," which is completely valid. Still not objective evidence, but a valid opinion.

Again, it's been shown, time and time again by objective analysis, that a consistent green/cyan tint does exist, and that it presides over the entire film. And again, it very well could be an intentional blanket-tint. It would be unlike anything Jackson has ever done to any of his LOTR films, theatrical or extended... but it very well could be intentional. The likelihood that is, though, decreases by the day. Jackson's silence is the most telling, but a variety of other signs point toward an error.

I'm honestly not interested in how slight any transfer error is. No one should care whether a production error is minor or major. It's much simpler than that: if there is an error, I would hope fans try to get the discs Peter Jackson wanted to put in their hands. Civilly, of course. Replacement programs have been instituted by Disney, Paramount, Sony and, yes, Warner for far, far, far less. (And no, I'm not saying every production problem has been addressed in the past, or that every issue that's been uncovered has earned a replacement program.)

To recap:

1) A slight consistent green/cyan tint is there, and it does preside over the whole film. No, everything doesn't look green. A slight green tint wouldn't make everything look green. Blues are still quite blue, reds are still reasonably red. They just wouldn't be as blue or as red as Jackson intended them to be. (If it were an error.)

2) The tint has been objectively verified again and again, and not one piece of objective evidence has surfaced that suggests the green/cyan tint isn't there, and isn't at play in the entire film. Subjective opinions have cropped up. But no objective evidence.

3) The debate is whether the tint is bothersome, not whether it exists. Whether Jackson intended it to exist will only be verified by a confirmation from Jackson himself or a Warner replacement program. I strongly suspect we'll see one or the other in the next two to three weeks.

Until Jackson or Warner speaks to the tint, these dismissals and personal attacks only decrease the value of this thread. Besides, typing the same fact rundown every ten or fifteen pages is making my fingers hurt. I'll have to start copy-pasting

This is true. It hasn't spoilt my pleasure in viewing the movie though. I wish we could all post as well as you. The whole thread would have been shorter, easier to read ...and polite!

[kingkong650]

Originally Posted by Ken Brown
Jackson and Lesnie re-graded the film. That has been confirmed. Then one of two things happened. They either intentionally added a consistent green/cyan tint to the entire image they re-graded or an error occurred in which a green/cyan tint was inadvertently added later in the process.

Much of the confusion and conflicting subjective analyses/opinions stem from people mistakenly assuming the entire image will appear green-ish. A slight green/cyan tint wouldn't and doesn't make everything look green; it simply alters every hue that appears on screen. In some FOTR shots, the tint is obvious. In others it is not. That doesn't mean it isn't there. It is always there, always affecting the colors present on the screen. The objective evidence of a prevailing tint is irrefutable.

However, whether the image looks great or not isn't the issue. It looks quite good, and boasts many improvements. (All of which trace back to Warner starting from the original 2K source, not Jackson's aesthetic re-grade.) The issue is whether the image as it appears is what Jackson intended. If it is, all he needs to do is say, "hey guys, the tint you've made me well aware of? It's all good. That's what I want." He's had two weeks to do so as the controversy has burned hotter and hotter. He has not. That says something. Jackson answers his fans all the time, addresses his filmmaking techniques constantly. Silence on this sort of topic shouldn't be taken lightly, and indicates something other than intention.

As I see it, this really isn't about whiny fans. It's just about getting the transfer Jackson wants FOTR fans to have into their hands. If the post-color-grade green/cyan tint is intentional, he only needs clarify that it was, indeed, an intentional move made or approved by himself or Lesnie. If the tint is the product of an error, though, it deserves to be corrected. All signs at the moment point toward it being an error, and those signs are mounting. No objective evidence has emerged that indicates the tint is intentional. There have been subjective reports that "it isn't there," which is inaccurate. Or subjective reports that amount to, "I just don't see it," which is completely valid. Still not objective evidence, but a valid opinion.

Again, it's been shown, time and time again by objective analysis, that a consistent green/cyan tint does exist, and that it presides over the entire film. And again, it very well could be an intentional blanket-tint. It would be unlike anything Jackson has ever done to any of his LOTR films, theatrical or extended... but it very well could be intentional. The likelihood that is, though, decreases by the day. Jackson's silence is the most telling, but a variety of other signs point toward an error.

I'm honestly not interested in how slight any transfer error is. No one should care whether a production error is minor or major. It's much simpler than that: if there is an error, I would hope fans try to get the discs Peter Jackson wanted to put in their hands. Civilly, of course. Replacement programs have been instituted by Disney, Paramount, Sony and, yes, Warner for far, far, far less. (And no, I'm not saying every production problem has been addressed in the past, or that every issue that's been uncovered has earned a replacement program.)

To recap:

1) A slight consistent green/cyan tint is there, and it does preside over the whole film. No, everything doesn't look green. A slight green tint wouldn't make everything look green. Blues are still quite blue, reds are still reasonably red. They just wouldn't be as blue or as red as Jackson intended them to be. (If it were an error.)

2) The tint has been objectively verified again and again, and not one piece of objective evidence has surfaced that suggests the green/cyan tint isn't there, and isn't at play in the entire film. Subjective opinions have cropped up. But no objective evidence.

3) The debate is whether the tint is bothersome, not whether it exists. Whether Jackson intended it to exist will only be verified by a confirmation from Jackson himself or a Warner replacement program. I strongly suspect we'll see one or the other in the next two to three weeks.
Until Jackson or Warner speaks to the tint, these dismissals and personal attacks only decrease the value of this thread. Besides, typing the same fact rundown every ten or fifteen pages is making my fingers hurt. I'll have to start copy-pasting

All in all a well thought and laid out post by you Ken. I complimented you on your review before and thought it was the most reasonable review on the internet when you first posted it and I still do now.

I pretty much agree with everything that you said apart from one thing, that the green tint is slight. I know you're trying to be as diplomatic and impartial as possible, which is only right and proper, but using the word 'slight' is a little misleading in this case. I think most would agree that the very last comparison of Saruman in Isengard would show that the green tint is not slight. I should know, I had to remove a fair amount of green and boost the blues in order to bring the colour balance back to where whites are white. I used the fade to white just before rivendell as a reference to getting the whites exactly right.

Slight the green tint most certainly is not, but I agree with everything else you've said.

Here's the comparison by diman1982 I was refering to:

HDTV


Bluray EE


Taken from regraded version of fotr ee blu-ray to remove the consistent green tint:

[Petri Teittinen]

Originally Posted by kingkong650

Nice comparison, diman1982. Just thought I'd add my regraded version to the comparison to show what it would look like without the green tint:

At first glance your regraded image looks very blue on my calibrated display. I took a sample off Saruman's right shoulder and got 142/181/201. Another sample off his staff gave an RGB value of 1/128/172. Messing about with Working RGB color spaces in Photoshop (for example, converting to Photoshop's built-in "HDTV (Rec.209) 16-235" color space) can give the image the appearance of being slightly less blue, but RGB color values don't lie.

[kingkong650]

Originally Posted by Petri Teittinen

At first glance your regraded image looks very blue on my calibrated display. I took a sample off Saruman's right shoulder and got 142/181/201. Another sample off his staff gave an RGB value of 1/128/172. Messing about with Working RGB color spaces in Photoshop (for example, converting to Photoshop's built-in "HDTV (Rec.209) 16-235" color space) can give the image the appearance of being slightly less blue, but RGB color values don't lie.

That's because the scene is meant to be blue, the interior of Isengard has always been blue. I haven't made the colour grading up here, I simply used the fade to white before Frodo wakes up at Rivendell as a reference of what should be white and removed the exact same amount of green tint across the whole film. To my eyes, even the hdtv screencap looks a little too magenta, though it looks much better than the fotr ee blu-ray screencap IMO. The regraded fotr ee screencap looks more 'correct' to me.

[Petri Teittinen]

Originally Posted by kingkong650

That's because the scene is meant to be blue, the interior of Isengard has always been blue. I haven't made the colour grading up here, I simply used the fade to white before Frodo wakes up at Rivendell as a reference of what should be white and removed the exact same amount of green tint across the whole film. To my eyes, the hdtv screencap looks a little too magenta. The regraded fotr ee screencap looks more 'correct' to me.

The cyan-ish blue overall tint of your regraded image looks highly incorrect to my eye, regardless of the supposedly blue look of Isengard. If I had to pick the most 'neutral' one of the three, it would clearly be the HDTV cap. Your regrade is at least as much off neutral as the EE cap, only in another direction. Based on this image alone, I think you're starting off from an incorrect conclusion and/or working on non-calibrated equipment.

[Scooter1836]

Originally Posted by Ken Brown

He would not need to consult Warner's legal department if he were confirming an intentional change he made as it appears on the final retail disc. He would only need to consult with the studio if he were preparing a statement associated with a replacement program or something connected to a production error. And as you said, it would be more out of professional courtesy than strict obligation.

I would disagree wih that. It depends on how contracts were written. Let's face it this really has only hit samll commnuities of people and not the mainstream media. Once jackson makes a statement it will hit the mainstream media and even if it is an intended tint WB does not want the mainstream media to get into the mix and affect release day sales.

He may also just be waiting for the release date to guage how the changes are being taken with the general public first.

[Romansh]

Originally Posted by nathan_393

But BD is fully capable of handling 30 fps and 60 fps, so why not 48?

Not at 1080p, AFAIK.

This probably isn't the best source on the subject but appears to match what I've read here and there:

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Blu-ray#Video

[joenostalgia23]

That comparison is like a cross between Saruman and the Powerpuff Girls.

[kingkong650]

Originally Posted by Petri Teittinen

The cyan-ish blue overall tint of your regraded image looks highly incorrect to my eye, regardless of the supposedly blue look of Isengard. If I had to pick the most 'neutral' one of the three, it would clearly be the HDTV cap. Your regrade is at least as much off neutral as the EE cap, only in another direction. Based on this image alone, I think you're starting off from an incorrect conclusion and/or working on non-calibrated equipment.

And what makes you think that the colour grading is going to be more 'neutral' in every scene relative to the hdtv/theatrical blu-ray/ee dvd? The grading in Isengard has been made stronger with a more cyan/blue look while the grading in Rivendell has been toned down a lot and made a lot more 'neutral'. There are many scenes where the grading is a lot stronger, like in Bag End during the One Ring reveal or when the fellowship first enter the woods of Lothlorien and other places where the grading has been toned down and looks far more neutral, like when Frodo is with Galadriel.

Once again, I remind you that all I have done is remove the consistant green tint running throughout. The fade to green is now the fade to white again. The rest is PJ's grading, not mine. If you don't like it, I suggest you stick to the currently released blu-ray or regrade the film yourself to your satisfaction.

[Petri Teittinen]

Originally Posted by kingkong650

Once again, I remind you that all I have done is remove the consistant green tint running throughout.

I get what you're attempting to do. I'm saying either the teal tint has not been applied consistently through the movie, or your starting off point (fade to supposedly white) is incorrect. Or something else. Regardless, I wish you could see through my eyes because there's way too much blue/cyan in your image. That shot is not supposed to look like that, no way, no how. And let me remind you again, if you're working on non-calibrated gear, you're basically stumbling around in the dark.

[kingkong650]

Originally Posted by Petri Teittinen

I get what you're attempting to do. I'm saying either the teal tint has not been applied consistently through the movie, or your starting off point (fade to supposedly white) is incorrect. Or something else. Regardless, I wish you could see through my eyes because there's way too much blue/cyan in your image. That shot is not supposed to look like that, no way, no how. And let me remind you again, if you're working on non-calibrated gear, you're basically stumbling around in the dark.

I get where you're coming from. Here is how the fade to white looks on my regraded version:

[Petri Teittinen]

Originally Posted by kingkong650

Here is how the fade to white looks on my regraded version

The more I think about it, the more certain I am about your kick-off point being incorrect. Your correction would make sense if, and only if, the fade is supposed to go to white. Think about it: what if the fade is actually intended to go to (for example) a slightly sepia tone instead? I always thought the fade retains the tint of the preceding dream/vision sequence and I'm fairly certain the sequence has a tint other than white.

[griezzel]

Originally Posted by Ken Brown

Oh yes, definitely. If the tint is intentional, I wouldn't be upset so much as I would suddenly be incredibly curious. I would want to know why he and Lesnie made the choice they did; whether it was purely aesthetic or in conjunction with the look of the Hobbit films. I'd also be curious as to why they didn't make similar changes to TTT and ROTK, particularly in regards to the identical shots from FOTR that appear later in the trilogy. I wouldn't do so to argue the merit of the tint, mind you, but simply because I've trusted Jackson's vision for this franchise for so long. I'd want to hear his explanation and then view the tinted FOTR again, in conjunction with his comments.

That's why so much of this discussion hinges on an explanation from Jackson or Warner. At this point, it's dizzying

I've finally begun looking very closely at some screencaps I took and seeing some odd things. I'm seeing that once were brightest areas of the scenes I'm looking at have the most consistent green tint, leaving other parts of the frame not as affected. Like they selected the brightest areas and clicked "global fill" with pea soup green. Seeing the same thing consistently throughout the film, leading me to believe, for the first time, that this may have been intentional afterall. It seems to me if that same green had been applied to every pixel of the film it would very much worse.

But I do see that a slighter green haze over the the whole frame of the entire film. As if, after filling in the highlights with green, another tint was added to the entire frame to dampen the other colors. Very odd.

And you're right, it makes FOTR look MUCH different than the other films. It depresses me more thinking that they intended this look, because it's so extreme. And incomprehensible. I can only assume, then, they would be planning to do the same to TTT and ROTK at some future date, to bring them in line. Because as it is now, the first film looks drastically different than the other two.

In short, if the film as it is now was intentional and not a major flub, I will be much MORE upset.

[kingkong650]

Originally Posted by Petri Teittinen

The more I think about it, the more certain I am about your kick-off point being incorrect. Your correction would make sense if, and only if, the fade is supposed to go to white. Think about it: what if the fade is actually intended to go to a slightly sepia tone instead? I always thought the fade retains the tint of the preceding dream/vision sequence and I'm fairly certain the sequence has a tint other than white.

I'm pretty sure that on the fotr ee dvd this scene is definately a fade to white with no tints. I've seen comparison shots posted previously that demonstrated as much. I've seen the theatrical blu-ray very recently and taken screencaps from this scene. This fade to white scene is also white but has a very slight magenta tint which makes sense because I always felt the whole film on the theatrical blu-ray to have a little too much of a reddish/magenta tint to it IMO.

[Petri Teittinen]

Originally Posted by kingkong650

I'm pretty sure that on the fotr ee dvd this scene is definately a fade to white with no tints. I've seen the theatrical blu-ray very recently and this fade to white is also white but has a slight magenta tint which fits because I always felt the whole film on the theatrical blu-ray to have a little too much of a reddish/magenta tint to it.

To add data to the discussion, I located my copy of the TE DVD and checked the fade. It goes to 239/224/218 which is a reddish tint. It has more green than blue so it's not leaning towards magenta. It also looks to me like it's the same overall tint, only a bit brighter, of the preceding dream/vision sequence. I'll dig up other FOTR releases for more data. Edit: EE DVD has the same tint.

[kingkong650]

Originally Posted by Petri Teittinen

To add data to the discussion, I located my copy of the TE DVD and checked the fade. It goes to 239/224/218 which is a reddish tint. It has more green than blue so it's not leaning towards magenta. It also looks to me like it's the same overall tint, only a bit brighter, of the preceding dream/vision sequence. I'll dig up other FOTR releases for more data.

I'm very interested in seeing what you discover.

[Petri Teittinen]

Originally Posted by kingkong650

I'm very interested in seeing what you discover.

I sampled the fade to color off TE DVD, EE DVD and TE BD. All three fade to the same tint which averages to 240/224/218. Not all pixels have the exact same RGB values of course, but the variance is meaningless. This explains why your regrade has looked a bit "off" to my eyes. I'm afraid you need to start over

[mredman]

Originally Posted by amoergosum

So let's say it's officially "intentional"....it is going to be so much fun
when they alter the colors again for the Ultimate Edition (that's going to be "intentional" again of course)....

But IF it is intentional which i think it is IMO. Why do you think they would alter the colors again just to make a small vocal bunch happy. Bottom line if it is intentional they will not alter the color again.
Because lets face it the majority of the people who buy this will not even notice this tint issue.

Would also makes me believe it is intentional is that the trailer they show at the official site for the blu ray set and theatrical release of the EE does also include this tint.

Yes in some scenes this tint in the screenshots do look bad especially the second breakfast scene. But if it was changed for intentional purpose who are we to judge. This is Peter Jackson's movies and he will do what he wants with these movies its his choice and if he thinks it needed more green tint. we can't do anything about it.