The Lord of the Rings: The Motion Picture Trilogy (Extended Edition) (2001-2003)

[retablo]

Originally Posted by Ken Brown

Yep. I'm looking at the actual scene on the FOTR disc on my calibrated display now, while simultaneously looking at the image as it appears on my computer monitor. It's amazing how different it looks in screenshots than it does in motion, even though both exhibit the same tonal colors and tint.

Which should be the last word on "screenshot science," and how screenshots, even though often accurate, are NOT always representative of how a disc looks when viewed normally. This has long been known - even though some people live and die by it rather than seeing the discs for themselves - and this example should be the final word on that.

Thank you Ken for being so thorough and continuing to brave the fires of this topic.

[Ken Brown]

Just to clarify: I too want to sit back and just enjoy the film from here on out. I truly, honestly do. But I can't bring myself to do that as long as misinformation continues to crop up in this thread every two pages

[Velmeran]

Originally Posted by Ken Brown

Just to clarify: I too want to sit back and just enjoy the film from here on out. I truly, honestly do. But I can't bring myself to do that as long as misinformation continues to crop up in this thread every two pages

Just walk away from the thread for a day or two, that's what I did
One will go mad if they try to keep misinformation from being spread in this thread.

[Ken Brown]

Originally Posted by retablo

Which should be the last word on "screenshot science," and how screenshots, even though often accurate, are NOT always representative of how a disc looks when viewed normally. This has long been known - even though some people live and die by it rather than seeing the discs for themselves - and this example should be the final word on that.

Thank you Ken for being so thorough and continuing to brave the fires of this topic.

Indeed. Screenshots can be a great tool, but they can also be a very misleading one. I think you'll find everyone on staff here agrees wholeheartedly. Unfortunately, they became the eye of the storm rather than the comments from reviewers who were trying to explain that the tint isn't as apparent when the film is playing as it is in static screenshots and side-by-side comparisons.

And it's no problem at all. So long as people aren't misunderstanding my intent, I don't mind trying to help. I don't want to keep talking about tints anymore than the rest of you, believe me. The sooner we can all get on the same civilly informed page, the better

[HeKS]

Originally Posted by retablo

Which should be the last word on "screenshot science," and how screenshots, even though often accurate, are NOT always representative of how a disc looks when viewed normally. This has long been known - even though some people live and die by it rather than seeing the discs for themselves - and this example should be the final word on that.

Thank you Ken for being so thorough and continuing to brave the fires of this topic.

Not to be pedantic or anything, but an accurate screenshot is representative of how it will look when viewed normally, at least in an objective sense. However, the conditions under which you view the screenshot may not be representative of the conditions under which you would watch the film, and that could cause you to perceive the two images differently.

Normally I wouldn't get so picky and granular, but the misinformation that keeps popping up in this thread seems to require it.

Take care,
HeKS

[Ken Brown]

Originally Posted by HeKS

Not to be pedantic or anything, but an accurate screenshot is representative of how it will look when viewed normally, at least in an objective sense. However, the conditions under which you view the screenshot may not be representative of the conditions under which you would watch the film, and that could cause you to perceive the two images differently.

Normally I wouldn't get so picky and granular, but the misinformation that keeps popping up in this thread seems to require it.

Take care,
HeKS

That's also true. Objectively, screenshots are accurate. Subjectively, they can be deceiving. A properly captured screenshot can't be inaccurate, just misleading. Thanks for catching me on that one

[Danielle Ni Dhighe]

Originally Posted by Ken Brown

It is present throughout. It isn't apparent throughout. Objective analysis confirms that it is there throughout the course of the film.

Fair enough. I'll accept your claim that objective analysis shows a tint throughout, but since it isn't apparent throughout, people who continue to insist everything is green are providing misinformation.

This is why as a photographer I prefer to shoot in black and white. Color can be a distraction.

[HeKS]

Originally Posted by Ken Brown

That's also true. Objectively, screenshots are accurate. Subjectively, they can be deceiving. A properly captured screenshot can't be inaccurate, just misleading. Thanks for catching me on that one

np

Edit: Actually, looking back at your post, I don't think you said anything inaccurate. My comments were actually addressed to retablo ... and even those comments were really inaccurate ... I just wanted to avoid them being interpreted in an inaccurate way.

[HeKS]

Originally Posted by Danielle Ni Dhighe

Fair enough. I'll accept your claim that objective analysis shows a tint throughout, but since it isn't apparent throughout, people who continue to insist everything is green are providing misinformation.

This is why as a photographer I prefer to shoot in black and white. Color can be a distraction.

Apparently you're right that it can be a distraction. It has been one for almost 400 pages.

That said, who has been insisting that everything is green? All of us who have been pointing out the green tint to those denying it have also stressed over and over again that it does NOT make everything green.

HeKS

[Ken Brown]

Originally Posted by Danielle Ni Dhighe

Fair enough. I'll accept your claim that objective analysis shows a tint throughout, but since it isn't apparent throughout, people who continue to insist everything is green are providing misinformation.

Most definitely. Misinformation is unfortunately coming from all directions, and most of it revolves around people's interpretation of the words "green tint," which suggests everything will look like Kermit the Frog.

If more and more people can get on the same page, as is slowly but surely occurring, misinformation can be eliminated. But both sides need to be willing to help us correct that misinformation. Tint-haters, correct people who suggest it the entire image appears green in hue, or that the tint is obvious throughout. Tint-lovers, correct those who suggest the tint doesn't exist or that it isn't objectively verifiable. Middle-of-the-roaders, pitch in accordingly

I know, I know. It's next to impossible. I have to go to bed and I know I'll wake to dozens of pages I'll never be able to address. But if everyone sets aside their arguments and focuses on creating a community discussion, this might just turn out to be a fascinating thread. (And yes, I know how naive that sounds. It's 4am so I'm sleepy )

Originally Posted by HeKS

Apparently you're right that it can be a distraction. It has been one for almost 400 pages.

That said, who has been insisting that everything is green? All of us who have been pointing out the green tint to those denying it have also stressed over and over again that it does NOT make everything green.

I think it's simply the words "green tint" along with some of the trickier screenshots that seem to be perpetuating that impression. (Although no other term really fits what appears, making it maddeningly difficult to discuss without being misleading to casual readers or thread newcomers.) I don't think anyone is actively trying to suggest everything has turned green, though

[raygendreau]

Originally Posted by Ken Brown

WHV and Jackson were informed some two weeks ago, but didn't address it until the day before the set was being released. I appreciate the statement, don't get me wrong, but I also know had it arrived earlier, much of the debate would have deflated long before now. I don't think it would have ever reached critical mass either. Keep in mind the statement wasn't released to Mr. Hunt and Mr. Harris until yesterday either

I'll admit I don't know the details of what went on in those two weeks, but I can't figure out what took two weeks to figure out. We now know it was intentional, so why the two weeks of confusion? If it's an intentional tint, all that was required was this telephone call. WHV: "Mr. Jackson, there is some concern about a green tint on the transfer of FOTR." PJ: "The slight, almost imperceptible tint Lesnie and I added intentionally?" WHV: "That's the one. Here are links to screenshots and color analyses that are popping up across the internet. We also overnighted you check discs." PJ: "Oh, yes. I recognize all that as exactly what we did. We did that because..."

See how strange it is? I'm not even nit-picking. Things just add up strangely. If the tint was intentional, why did it take two weeks to confirm it? Since it was intentional and so well documented in the fabric of the forum controversy, wouldn't Jackson have immediately known what the WHV reps, Facebook posters, forum members and insiders were referring to when asking him about it? The topic has been posted on the Facebook page PJ frequents regularly all that time, and he's commented on other topics, why not this one? Why not issue a small statement saying, "we did add a slight tint, but we're checking the discs to make sure it's 100% accurate." That would have quelled the controversy and given people an expectation of an answer. Instead, animosity and misinformation grew and grew and grew.

But that's all conjecture. The separate statement from the filmmakers wouldn't be appreciated to confirm WHV's statement. I have no doubt it's true, and I'm glad they put as much work into verifying the transfer is intentional as they did.

No, Jackson's comments -- even three sentences worth -- would be appreciated so I could discuss the color changes in context, not as a reviewer, but so we could all discuss it as a film community. It's obviously being discussed anyway. It would be nice to eliminate the conjecture with some transparency. We can discuss Han and Greedo because Lucas revealed his reasoning. We can't discuss the thematic and tonal changes present in FOTR, because all we have to go on is that it is intentional. Considering Jackson's love of documentaries and detailing his intentions, as evidenced by the Appendices, I don't think a few followup questions would be troubling. He would probably enjoy answering them, once he found the time of course.

And that would truly help everyone enjoy FOTR, and Jackson and Lesnie's purposeful changes, that much more

I think an early statement, such as "We have seen the concerns and we are looking into it" would have fanned the flames and fed the fire more than the silence. I would surmise that they took the time to thoroughly examine the issues raised prior to releasing the definitive statement that "nothing is amiss". Given PJ's current project, it is conceivable that it took a while for him to get around to responding to the issues raised. I would imagine that they went through a checkdisk of FOTR again, very carefully before WHV issued their statement.

I have no doubt that you will eventually get some direct comment from the filmakers in some venue; however, sufficient insight into the methodology and reasons for the changes can be garnered from the regrading documentary you previously referred to which is posted in this thread.

Corporate protocol at WB probably differs signifcantly from the way things were at Wingnuts and Newline. Some would probably view it as ponderous. You were exposed to this in your quest for the WHV PR release. Policies and procedures must be followed and they take time.

[Roy Batty]

Originally Posted by Ken Brown

And yes, even with the tint, it still looks amazing. No one seems to be debating that point

Errr... I am not sure if I am misreading you here.

I won't count myself, for I haven't had the chance to watch the actual discs yet, but I would say there are quite a few posters –and even some reviewers– that, tint or no tint, are strongly questioning the quality of the transfer and it does not look so "amazing" to their eyes, because of the excessive contrast, the loss of shadow detail and the general underexposed image (truth be told, both the loss of shadow detail and the underexposure may well be related to the green tint "overlay", while the contrast may have been pumped up to try and make up for the underexposure as a way to get more solid blacks).

Again, I can't judge the actual discs for I have yet to give them a spin, but, from the screencaps, I agree with all of the above.

[Danielle Ni Dhighe]

Originally Posted by HeKS

That said, who has been insisting that everything is green?

I'm not going through 360 pages to pick out quotes that gave me that impression! I will say that I don't recall you being one of those posters.

[The Blufather]

HeKs -

"There are a few hold-outs who like to insist that the green tint isn't really there at all, but they are incorrect and as it has been objectively proven to be present throughout the film on all copies."

Almost 70 posts in this forum. All in this thread. And you still don't own it So to sum up your 70 posts, are you saying there might be a green tint? I hope some people get some fresh air tomorrow, or go actually buy the movies and actually watch them or go find a friend/family member who actually has it, and watch it.

This has become a really silly thread. Nobody actually offering up anything new. The movie is actually out now for the general public.

Don't worry, we have Star Wars coming up. Save up your energy.

[Danielle Ni Dhighe]

Originally Posted by Roy Batty

there are quite a few posters that, tint or no tint, are strongly questioning the quality of the transfer and it does not look so "amazing" to their eyes

Would it look better without the contrast changes and loss of shadow detail? Possibly. Does it look noticeably better than the TE? Definitely.

[HeKS]

Originally Posted by Ken Brown

I think it's simply the words "green tint" along with some of the trickier screenshots that seem to be perpetuating that impression. (Although no other term really fits what appears, making it maddeningly difficult to discuss without being misleading to casual readers or thread newcomers.) I don't think anyone is actively trying to suggest everything has turned green, though

Yeah, that's actually my point. None of us have been suggesting it turns everything green, if anything we've having to point out that this isn't the case and that the failure to find that everything has turned green doesn't change the fact that the tint is still there.

I also agree with you that "no other terms really fits what appears", because the tint is not cyan. It actually IS green. It's just that because it is a transparent TINT and not an opaque layer of green, it interacts with all the other colors. When you combine this with the fact that it's most noticeable in scenes with white, but that many of the scenes with white include snow, which actually trends towards the blue palette, the net effect is a cyan color, which is what is making some people think that it's actually a cyan tint rather than a green one.

How's that for confusing?

HeKS

[Roy Batty]

Originally Posted by Danielle Ni Dhighe

Would it look better without the contrast changes and loss of shadow detail? Possibly. Does it look noticeably better than the TE? Definitely.

But, you will have to agree with me, that was no big feat, was it?

[Danielle Ni Dhighe]

Originally Posted by Roy Batty

But, you will have to agree with me, that was no big feat, was it?

No, not really, but how it looked on the TE Blu is no doubt the biggest factor in why we think the PQ of the EE Blu is strong. Even with the tint and contrast changes, it's the best it's ever looked on a home video format by far, at least to my eyes.

[Danielle Ni Dhighe]

At the end of the day, do I think I got my money's worth out of the EE Blu-rays, especially considering FOTR? The answer is a resounding yes.

[gregmasciola]

Originally Posted by Ken Brown

If more and more people can get on the same page, as is slowly but surely occurring, misinformation can be eliminated. But both sides need to be willing to help us correct that misinformation. Tint-haters, correct people who suggest it the entire image appears green in hue, or that the tint is obvious throughout. Tint-lovers, correct those who suggest the tint doesn't exist or that it isn't objectively verifiable. Middle-of-the-roaders, pitch in accordingly

One cannot simply get a crazy thread back on topic. Not with a thousand members could you do this. It is folly!