The Lord of the Rings: The Motion Picture Trilogy (Extended Edition) (2001-2003)

[EVOLVIST]

Originally Posted by Ken Brown

(And, in case I haven't my intentions clear, I can't wait to stop making this post over and over. Unfortunately, I have to post this again and again because some people continue to suggest that the tint doesn't exist in every scene. The moment I stop seeing "it isn't there" and start seeing "I personally don't see it," I'll stop posting "yes, it is at play in every scene and is applied to the entire film." To everyone, though, no matter your opinion, thanks as always for posting!)

Ha! Well, you're doing a bang up job. Not everyone can be bothered to read all these pages; so your "again and again" is well needed and proper.

[mredman]

Originally Posted by Toasterlad

#3 is only an issue for Jackson if the studio is lying or being disingenuous about the tint being intentional. If it's truly how he wanted it to look, why would he care WHO finds out about the tint? However, if it's NOT intentional, then he'd have to admit that he let people believe it WAS in order to save Warner Brothers some dough in replacement disc costs.

I also don't buy the "extremely busy" line. It's been a few weeks since this ballyhoo started, and he couldn't find time to make ONE Facebook post saying "Yes, the green tint is intentional"? He hasn't even heard MENTION of it, even though it been discussed on every Hobbitt fansite on the net? Unlikely.

And if he considers it a non-issue, why not say so? Why not say, "You people are getting yourselves all worked up over nothing! The green tint was my idea, and I think it makes everything SUPER GREAT!"

I honestly don't care if it was intentional or not, I don't like it, and I'm not buying it (at least not til it's under $40). But I find it kind of annoying that people are taking a vague studio memo as word from Jackson On High. Jackson hasn't commented directly on the color tint. And the only reason I'm interested in that fact at all is because it leaves the door open to the possibility that the studio is lying, and that eventually a replacement disc or set will be released without the green tint nonsense. If that never happens, that's okay too. I've lived this long with the DVDs, and I can go on enjoying them.

You can't be serious to think the studio is lying. Do you even realize what would happen if they did that. PJ would take them to court and slap a law suit on them and he would win no question about it and they would be known as an unrespected studio throughout all of hollywood. No director would ever work with them again after such a mess.

There is noway Warner is lying if they say it was intentional and spoke to PJ about it they sure did. You can bet your ass on that.


I can't believe that some people here would think warner is lying

[42041]

Originally Posted by mredman

You can't be serious to think the studio is lying. Do you even realize what would happen if they did that. PJ would take them to court and slap a law suit on them and he would win no question about it and they would be an unrespected studio throughout all of hollywood. No director would ever work with them again after such a mess.

There is noway Warner is lying if they say it was intentional and spoke to PJ about it they sure did. You can bet your ass on that.


I can't believe that some people here would think warner is lying

That has to be a joke post, right? You can't be that naive
There are many degrees of "lying". I could absolutely imagine WB blowing off a minor screwup most won't notice, if it saves them money and avoids replacement programs.

[retablo]

Originally Posted by Toasterlad

#3 is only an issue for Jackson if the studio is lying or being disingenuous about the tint being intentional. If it's truly how he wanted it to look, why would he care WHO finds out about the tint? However, if it's NOT intentional, then he'd have to admit that he let people believe it WAS in order to save Warner Brothers some dough in replacement disc costs.

Except that there is NO reason he would want a "bad" version of the film out there. I doubt VERY seriously that after investing all those years of his life on a huge movie trilogy, that he would lie about how it looks just because someone made an error. I don't buy that for one second, and anyone who has created art before would agree with me. If they let him "approve" the master and color grading, then he's under no obligation to keep quiet IF an error was made after his final tweaks. In fact, I'd wager the opposite - if he DOES have final say on how the films are presented, then it may be his legal right TO say something and have the discs corrected - IF they are wrong.

[retablo]

Originally Posted by 42041

That has to be a joke post, right? You can't be that naive
There are many degrees of "lying". I could absolutely imagine WB blowing off a minor screwup most won't notice, if it saves them money and avoids replacement programs.

They have a replacement program for Matrix: Revolutions. Why didn't they "blow off" that minor screwup as well?

[Sean72]

Originally Posted by jbat31

The only thing i will add, is that on any movie, I can play with contrast and brightness and get more or less detail. I mean we could debate all day that certain calibration choices that make for the best overall picture sacrifice some details in some cases.

There may be portions of the image that have been 'lost' due to excessive contrast boosting and/or brightness reduction. There are shots in this new cut of FOTR where it can be very hard to make out some of the shadow detail.

Unfortunately if the brightness on the transfer itself was pulled down too dark, to the point where it obscures/loses shadow detail, you can't get that detail back by increasing the brightness of your TV set.

[42041]

Originally Posted by retablo

They have a replacement program for Matrix: Revolutions. Why didn't they "blow off" that minor screwup as well?

It's harder to whitewash a blatant encoding error as an intentional alteration.

And I'm not saying this is. I just don't have any kind of implicit trust in the PR release. Subtle errors go unnoticed right onto retail discs with alarming regularity, even ones that are filmmaker-approved.

[raygendreau]

Originally Posted by DaViD Boulet

The other two films were already color-graded this way from the outset in their original DI during production. Fellowship was the odd-man-out because it was mastered to an analog intermediate and lacked consistency with the latter two films.

Now, finally, Fellowship matches the mood and color-palette of the 2nd two films, making a solid trilogy in visual style as well as storytelling.

Yes. Finally, the tone of the FOTR EE BD matches the tone of Tolkien's book as Peter Jackson intended.

Unfortunately, people continue to compare it to the tone of the DVD and TE BD. If they can get beyond that, it will be easier for them to accept the new EE as the benchmark.

I hope to hear from members (Radagast and Grand Bob for example) on their agreement or disagreement with this premise after they have watched the new EE of FOTR.

"tone · The narrator’s tone varies somewhat over the course of The Fellowship of the Ring, though it maintains an aura of myth and nostalgia throughout. During the opening episodes in the Shire, the tone is light and casual, but it quickly becomes more serious as the Company moves into the perils of the world beyond—especially in the Mines of Moria, the darkest section of the novel. The episodes in the Elven lands, most notably the forest of Lothlórien, feature a more elegiac tone, seemingly mourning the inevitable passing of the Elves and their beautiful creations from Middle-earth."

[Ken Brown]

Originally Posted by retablo

Except that there is NO reason he would want a "bad" version of the film out there. I doubt VERY seriously that after investing all those years of his life on a huge movie trilogy, that he would lie about how it looks just because someone made an error. I don't buy that for one second, and anyone who has created art before would agree with me. If they let him "approve" the master and color grading, then he's under no obligation to keep quiet IF an error was made after his final tweaks. In fact, I'd wager the opposite - if he DOES have final say on how the films are presented, then it may be his legal right TO say something and have the discs corrected - IF they are wrong.

I agree. While PR statements should always be open to scrutiny, I doubt Jackson would lie about it just to cover a studio. This is the guy who took on New Line post-LOTR, lest we forget

If it is an error and Jackson maintains all is well, it would only be because he doesn't see the tint or, as Bill Hunt suggested, it strikes Jackson as a non-issue and he's happy with the results in spite of said tint. (Or he specifically and purposefully added the tint, in which case he would be able to speak to the artistic reasons he chose to add it to the entire film) And just to preemptively clarify: if, if, if. Accounts of Jackson's satisfaction with the transfer and the studio's direct statement all point to the tint and its side effects as being products of Jackson's intention and new color-grade.

[flodsby]

Originally Posted by Ken Brown

I agree. While PR statements should always be open to scrutiny, I doubt Jackson would lie about it just to cover a studio. This is the guy who took on New Line post-LOTR, lest we forget

If it is an error and Jackson maintains all is well, it would only be because he doesn't see the tint or, as Bill Hunt suggested, it strikes Jackson as a non-issue and he's happy with the results in spite of said tint. (Or he specifically and purposefully added the tint, in which case he would be able to speak to the artistic reasons he chose to add it to the entire film) And just to preemptively clarify: if, if, if. Accounts of Jackson's satisfaction with the transfer and the studio's direct statement all point to the tint and its side effects as being products of Jackson's intention and new color-grade.

I totally agree Ken. And as I put in bold, I would love to know the reason/s myself. Not to say I don't like the new colr scheme, I'm still up in the air about it. It's going to have to grow on me. But I can say that this is the best that I have seen FOTR.

[raygendreau]

Originally Posted by Snake512

I popped in my FOTR EE tonight and have to say that I did notice some differences in the visual presentation, some of which I like and some I'm not so sure I like. Having recently watched the TEs and looking at posts in this thread I need to watch this with a clearer mind and eye but for now I'll say that the EE is definitely.....different. As for a preference, again, the jury's out.

I will say that the audio is stunning and far superior than either the TEs or the DVDs. One thing I noticed immediately is that Sauron's voice is much more prominent in those scenes and his words are very understandable with a clarity I've never heard. I wasn't able to make out all of his words before and found out what was said after seeing the movie in the theater way back when, online somewhere. Now his voice is much more audible without overpowering the other dialogue and sounds.

Thanks for the info on the audio. Could you provide some info on the player and audio system components you have? Also. could you confirm that the audio is actually DTS HD MA 6.1 discrete?

[jumpy]

Is there a separate thread for the best buy exclusive with the figures, I saw it in Best Buy store today and its actually pretty good:




The Lord of the Rings: The Motion Picture Trilogy Blu-ray Best Buy Exclusive Chess Set

[MEB]

I haven't posted to this thread for a couple of days. I wanted to wait until I'd actually viewed the Fellowship of the Ring EE Blu-ray before I posted again. I was planning to view it on a friend's system but all of the positive comments I kept reading on Tuesday convinced me to go ahead and buy the set. I picked it up at Best Buy last night.

Today I spent about 7 hours evaluating FOTR EE Blu-ray on my own system. First I watched the entire movie. As I watched, I would occasionally pause and make note of the elapsed time so I could later go back and look at those scenes/sections again. When I was done watching the movie all the way through, I went back and compared those scenes to both the theatrical edition Blu-ray and to the corresponding screen shots which I loaded up on my 15" MacBook Pro (viewing them fullscreen).

My display is a 70" JVC LCOS. It has been calibrated with the Disney WOW disc (I used to use the Avia disc but I feel the Disney WOW Blu-ray gives better results). My player is a Panasonic BD35. My MacBook Pro is regularly calibrated with a colorimeter.

My findings:

1) There are many scenes that look stunningly gorgeous on the FOTR EE Blu-ray.

2) The opening title did not appear to have a green tint. It didn't exactly look white, but it also didn't look green. To my eyes it looked like a light grey.

3) In the scene with Gandalf arriving on at Bilbo's front door, the image is too dark. It's as if a veil had been pulled over the camera. Bilbo's front door is a much darker green on the EE Blu-ray vs. the theatrical Blu-ray. When the camera switched to a closeup of Gandalf (with a clear sky behind him), where the sky is a very natural vivid blue on the TE Blu-ray it is a decidedly unnatural blue-green on the EE Blu-ray. Not as green as it appears in that split-screen video that's been linked, but definitely more green than the TE Blu-ray.

4) Speaking of too dark…. There are MANY scenes and sections on the EE Blu-ray that are annoyingly too dark. The opening battle scene against the orcs and Sauron is too dark. The scenes at Isengard are too dark. The scenes through the mines of Moria are too dark. That said, comparatively, the same scenes on the TE Blu-ray might be a bit too light. But the EE Blu-ray goes too far the other way. A friend of mine agrees with me about these scenes being too dark (viewed on his system, a 65" Samsung LED LCD). He compared them to his EE DVDs and he felt the DVDs look better with regard to scene brightness for those (dark) scenes.

5) The infamous "green tint"!… Yep, it is there! And not just in a couple of brief spots. I noticed the tint on and off throughout the movie. I'm not saying that everything "looked green" (though in some cases that was true). I'm saying that the effect of a greenish color cast (tint) was noticeable throughout MANY scenes in the movie. In some cases, right down to literally matching the screen shots. This is one of those scenes (time code on disc 1 is 1:06:44):

Theatrical Blu-ray:


Extended edition Blu-ray:


What I see on my JVC display (directly from the EE Blu-ray disc) is virtually identical to what I see in that second screen shot. In fact, when comparing the above screen shot (displayed on my calibrated MacBook Pro) to the EE Blu-ray (on my JVC), the snow on the big 70" display looked slightly greener (slightly).

Another spot where the green tint jumped out at me is at disc 1 time code 1:05:45 (about a minute before the scene above). Aragorn is leading the hobbits. There is a pale of green over the entire scene. Pause the movie at that exact time code and look how green everything looks, even the gaps between the shrubbery. While paused at that time code, look at the faces of Frodo and Sam. They are extremely ashen. Frodo looks like he's dead. And, yes, I noticed it while actually watching the movie, not just when I paused the player. But the scene goes by fairly quickly so a backup and pause was necessary to confirm what I just saw.

Regarding this shot:



The image I'm seeing on my JVC is not quite as green as the top screen shot. I'd call that top screen shot a tint toward green-blue. On my JVC it's more of a blue-green. But the intensity of the tint is about the same and the image on my JVC is MUCH closer to the top screen shot vs. the bottom screen shot. I am seeing snow with a heavy blue-green tint and it doesn't look remotely natural.

I could go on, but there's no point. Either you see it, or you don't. I do.

Bottom line for me: The screen shots and videos that surfaced over the last two weeks are reasonably accurate representations of what I am seeing when watching the actual EE Blu-rays on my JVC LCOS set. Not every screen shot is spot-on, but even the ones that aren't spot-on are still relatively close. About the only screen shot that isn't agreeing with what I am seeing is the one of the opening title. I just don't see any green in that title on the JVC.

That said…. Even as wrong as this green tint looks to eyes my biggest complaint with FOTR EE Blu-ray is that some scenes are too dark. If the green tint is Peter Jackson's wishes, so be it. But, holy crap, lighten up the image a bit so we can actually see what is going on in the mines of Moria.

Do I regret buying this set? No. But I am not at all satisfied with the overall image quality of FOTR. When a scene is bright enough and the green tint isn't rearing its ugly head I'm seeing a phenomenal image with excellent detail and beautiful colors. Other times, not so much. I do feel that it needs to be redone and I do feel that a mistake has been made by whoever approved this transfer. It is really disheartening that all of the movie couldn't look as good as the best parts of the movie.

[Ken Brown]

Originally Posted by flodsby

Without that where would we be? But, alas I see what you're saying and I to your integrity sir. It must get tiring being so neutral sometimes huh

Tiring, and a wee bit boring

[42041]

Life and work got in the way and I was not able to view Fellowship tonight, but I did skim a few scenes, and my early impressions concur with other people's positive ones. The greenish whites are there and I'm unconvinced they're not misplaced as of yet, but based on what I saw it's really not a big deal; my Pioneer Kuro (fed by a PS3) seems to render it less dramatically than my Samsung LCD TV as well. The film itself now looks properly HD, and while I'm going from memory on this, the color grading in general is an improvement to my eye from the DVDs and the TE blu-ray, which I've always thought was somewhat wonky (to use the technical term) and occasionally drab.

(full disclosure: I also thought Last of the Mohicans looked very good, which has also been attacked as being too dark and too yellow)

[Ken Brown]

Originally Posted by MEB

The infamous "green tint"!… Yep, it is there! And not just in a couple of brief spots. I noticed the tint on and off throughout the movie. I'm not saying that everything "looked green" (though in some cases that was true). I'm saying that the effect of a greenish color cast (tint) was noticeable throughout MANY scenes in the movie. In some cases, right down to literally matching the screen shots. This is one of those scenes (time code on disc 1 is 1:06:44.

Thanks for your detailed impressions

Just to address what some may ask about the first two screenshots you posted, though: yes, the EE shot is a bit softer than the TE shot. However, this isn't a flaw in the transfer. Notice the TE shot has been hit with a healthy dose of artificial sharpening. The 2K remaster featured in the EE wasn't subjected to the same edge enhancement that was added to the previous TE Blu-ray master.

The EE shot is softer, but that's actually a good thing, as the EE softness is more faithful to the original photography than the TE sharpness. Hope that makes sense!

[frogmort]

My personal opinion on this is simply that I think it looks much better than I ever expected, but if the contrast was adjusted, and the blanket tint removed, it would be perfect.

I am quite happy with it for the most part, but I honestly still, and probably will always think that it was a mistake. If it's not, then it's a bad decision.

I don't regret buying it, but I do hope for a replacement program in the near future. Warner has a replacement program for 'The Matrix: Revolutions' which has one frame that is mildly pixelated, and virtually no one ever even noticed it. This is a much bigger movie than that, with a problem that effects every single frame of the entire movie.

It's not that bad, but I don't think anyone should have to say that about a movie of this magnitude.

[bert213]

OK, enough about the 'green tint' chatter! I've decided to pickup my copy tomorrow....

but, I'm wondering...should I keep my Theatrical Blu-ray set?

Who's keeping their Theatrical Blu-ray set...and why? I've only watched the EE once...

BTW, I don't really mind the 'green tint' chatter. I actually enjoy reading all of the enthusiastic opinions from all.

[frogmort]

[BluMagic]

Originally Posted by DaViD Boulet

The other two films were already color-graded this way from the outset in their original DI during production. Fellowship was the odd-man-out because it was mastered to an analog intermediate and lacked consistency with the latter two films.

Now, finally, Fellowship matches the mood and color-palette of the 2nd two films, making a solid trilogy in visual style as well as storytelling.

That´s exactly my thoughts from watching the set.