The Lord of the Rings: The Motion Picture Trilogy (Extended Edition) (2001-2003)

[MEB]

I decided to replace the lamp in my JVC LCoS TV today. After putting in a new lamp I left the set on for 2 hours and then I calibrated it again with the Disney WOW Blu-ray. (I LOVE that disc! I blows away all previous calibration discs I've used!) FWIW, the new settings that I ended up at were identical to the previous settings with the exception of dialing down 1 click on brightness. Then I fired up FOTR EE Blu-ray.

Guess what?… With a fresh lamp installed snow does not look quite as green as it did with the older projection lamp. Yes, I can tell a difference in the brighter areas of the picture. A new lamp helped to eliminate SOME of the green tint. HOWEVER….. Overall, the green tint is still there and is still quite noticeable.

In an effort to try to show everyone what I am seeing, I decided to take some photos of my JVC display with my MacBook Pro laptop positioned in front of it. Before I go any further, YES, I understand that taking photographs of a screen is not the best way to show what you are seeing. A camera's automatic settings can influence the end result. However, I know what I'm doing with a camera so I put all camera settings on manual, including white balance. I set the white balance to 6,500K. 6,500K is the color temperature my JVC is set to and it's also the color temperature my MacBook Pro's display is calibrated to. I also used a tripod and remote shutter release. I darkened the viewing room to eliminate any stray light falling on the screens. I was very careful to be as "scientific" about it as I could. Once I brought the camera RAW files (from a Canon 5D Mark II) over to my post processing software (Apple's Aperture), the only thing I did was crop the images and save them as JPEGs. No other form of post processing was applied.

Frankly, I think it worked out pretty darn well! The color in the images you see below are virtually identical to what I see on my JVC and MacBook Pro screens when viewed direct with my eyeballs. If you came to my house, this is how it would look to you.

Photo #1
JVC Display: FOTR EXTENDED edition Blu-ray disc #1 paused at 1:06:44.
MacBook Pro Display: 1920x1080 screen shot from FOTR EXTENDED edition Blu-ray.


STOP at that first photo for a moment! It might actually look OK to you. Maybe that's about what you are seeing on your TV? Take a few moments to examine the JVC display and how it compares to what you see on the MacBook Pro display. Look at the color of Merry's cloak on the JVC and compare it to the color of his cloak on the MacBook Pro image. Ditto for the cloaks that Pippin, Sam and Frodo are wearing. Also look at Sam's shirt. Though not exact matches (JVC to MacBook Pro), they are indeed very close! And the SHOULD be very close because it's a comparison of EE edition to EE edition on two calibrated displays!

Now let's look at the next photo!

Photo #2
JVC Display: FOTR EXTENDED edition Blu-ray disc #1 paused at 1:06:44.
MacBook Pro Display: 1920x1080 screen shot from FOTR THEATRICAL edition Blu-ray.


Look at the color of the cloaks and shirts on the theatrical edition screen shot displayed on the MacBook Pro! WOW!… Merry's and Sam's cloaks are actually grey. Pippin's cloak is actually maroon, not brown. Sam's shirt is actually grey, not teal.

To help you see the differences more easily, I cropped the photos even tighter. I intentionally eliminated as much of the snow as I could so we could concentrate on the clothing.

Cropped Photo #1
JVC Display: FOTR EXTENDED edition Blu-ray disc #1 paused at 1:06:44.
MacBook Pro Display: 1920x1080 screen shot from FOTR EXTENDED edition Blu-ray.


Cropped Photo #2
JVC Display: FOTR EXTENDED edition Blu-ray disc #1 paused at 1:06:44.
MacBook Pro Display: 1920x1080 screen shot from FOTR THEATRICAL edition Blu-ray.


Look at Merry's cloak. Look at Pippin's cloak. The color differences between the theatrical and extended editions is HUGE.

Still can't see the differences? OK, here's an even tighter crop over Sam.

Cropped Photo #3
JVC Display: FOTR EXTENDED edition Blu-ray disc #1 paused at 1:06:44.
MacBook Pro Display: 1920x1080 screen shot from FOTR EXTENDED edition Blu-ray.


Cropped Photo #4
JVC Display: FOTR EXTENDED edition Blu-ray disc #1 paused at 1:06:44.
MacBook Pro Display: 1920x1080 screen shot from FOTR THEATRICAL edition Blu-ray.


Look at Sam's Shirt! Look at the bag between Sam's legs. Compare the MacBook image to the JVC image. The shirt and the bag are both grey on the theatrical edition not the awful teal we see in the extended edition.

That ugly and unnatural green/teal/cyan tint permeates far too much of the extended edition Blu-ray. I fully realize that many people just don't see it. But a good number of us DO see it and it sucks! Hopefully, these photos will help any doubters understand just how badly it sucks!

[Rizor]

I finished watching FOTR earlier and it looked very good to me. The more problematic shots (those deemed as such by the screenshot analysts, etc) looked fine in the context of their new grading. The colors and details were strong. It looks great and if Peter Jackson and Andrew Lesnie are happy with it, so am I. My biggest gripe with it is the subtitles are no longer white, they're a light greenish-gray color.

I started TTT a little while ago and it seems more problematic. Dull, drab colors (intentional though, I'm sure), some mosquito noise in some wide shots (notably around Sam's face during the scene where he and Frodo have Gollum tied up with the Elven rope), noise reduction (see the Uruk Hai camp scene) and some ringing. These were present in the theatrical edition as well, and unfortunately they seem to be baked into the film's digital master.

[Danielle Ni Dhighe]

Originally Posted by MEB

Hopefully, these photos will help any doubters understand just how badly it sucks!

It looks much worse as stills than as a moving image. Doubters need to watch it in motion first, instead of letting the Screenshot Brigade try to scare them.

[AreaUnderTheCurve]

Originally Posted by MEB

That ugly and unnatural green/teal/cyan tint permeates far too much of the extended edition Blu-ray. I fully realize that many people just don't see it. But a good number of us DO see it and it sucks! Hopefully, these photos will help any doubters understand just how badly it sucks!

It doesn't bother me one bit.

[Stinky-Dinkins]

I stopped replying in this thread until I watched it completely. Well, I watched Fellowship and TTT. Unfortunately it wasn't possible for me to watch either without an ultra critical eye, but that's pretty much how I watch every home video release since getting into this hobby more than a decade ago... so:

FotR:
The green bias issues are not as bad as the worst screens would indicate when watching due to one's eyes auto adjusting. That being said - is it noticeable? Yes, at times, absolutely. Is it bothersome? Yes, in my opinion, at times (not throughout the whole film by any stretch.) The tint seems noticeable to me over Saruman at times, at times certain close ups of faces also exhibit the tint. It makes them look... not sure of the proper term. Not pallid exactly, like corpses a bit? Also in other scenes, with mist and the like, the tint is noticeable. Or over what was an off-white dress or robe, now it's tinged. It also affects scenes like Rivendell. That portion was once warm and almost "glowing," it felt like a place of comfort. It no longer has this feeling. It's noticeable, but like I said, not as bad as some of the worst screen shots would have one believe.... but still very far from "ideal."

What is worse than I expected, though, are the contrast issues. Blacks are crushed horribly. It's particularly evident in places like Moria with enormous swathes of fine detail being lost entirely. I actually took the film out at one point and took it to a tiny (relatively speaking) set downstairs (a professionally calibrated XBR960 HD CRT) that is renowned for its black level performance - specifically to guage the amount lost in these scenes. It is absurdly noticeable. Blacks are crushed.


TTT remains faithful to what is was previously so not much to report on there. Also, after watching TTT the changes in color timing in Fellowship become even more apparent. TTT (and I'm assuming, RotK, which I have not yet had the time to watch) so obviously do not suffer from these issues, in particular the new green tint. Scenes sometimes appear very much blue, or red, or green, (as they were originally intended) but they always feel and look much cleaner as they don't have the drab green tint playing with them. It makes FotR's timing all the more odd because it greatly distances it from the following two films, it does not bring it in line with them as one would expect and has been claimed. It does the opposite.


The increase in detail in FotR (apart from the crushed blacks and contrast issues) is very appreciable and impressive.

Also, I love these movies. Fellowship is probably my favorite movie of all time and en excuse to rewatch them is always, always welcome.

Overall I'm keeping this release as the increase in detail is always my number one concern - but it's far from perfect. An exchange with the contrast and color issues fixed would be appreciated, but I hold out very little hope.

I'm going to go watch RotK now. All three films spread out over 3 days with plenty of beer: Good times.

[frogmort]

Originally Posted by Grand Bob

OK, I have just finished watching the first disc (I only watch one EE disc per day). I was initially thrilled to see the wonderful definition of this new edition, as well as hear the improvement in sound, as Ken noted in his review. For example, I had never previously noticed the perspiration on Bilbo's head during his farewell speech (disc time 25:18) or details such as the fiery inscription on the Ring (example disc times 34:10 and 37:36). Absolutely marvelous increase of detail.

Let me also say that those who have not repeatedly seen the movies will probably never notice the new tint and change in contrast. Those who have seen it often (I have seen Fellowship a minimum of 50 times) most certainly will.
It varied from a mild distraction to a persistent annoyance. There were times that I was so enamoured with the extra detail in the film that I did not notice it at all. A few notes based on the disc times:

08:15 Title frames; tint noticeable, but not bad.
10:00 Sam's first appearance - distracting green highlights in his hair.
12:09 "Flower field" shot of the Shire; noticeably darker than the original and tinted.
16:30 The paint on the walls at Bag End has a noticeable difference in tint; not annoying, but "odd" compared to the original.
19:50 The "life" has been drained out of the sky with Gandalf and Bilbo blowing smoke rings at sunset. This was true for many scenes, especially in the Shire and at Rivendell.
35:15 The "Gaffer sequence" at the Green Dragon; hair and facial details of the characters are noticeably teal tinted.
38:20 Conversation between Gandalf and Frodo oddly colored, not necessarily distracting, but different.

As the movie progressed to the darker locations, I thought the tint/contrast change would not be as prevalent. I was wrong.

48:50 Teal cast to the inside of Orthanc; odd, not bad.
49:25 Saruman's hair and robe noticeably teal; distracting.
55:38 Hobbits in woods hiding from Black Rider; teal cast.
57:50 Frodo's conversation with the Bree gatekeeper; noticeable teal shadow highlights to face.
1:07:36 Midgewater marsh haze is teal.
1:15:55 Moth shadow highlights at Isengard are teal.
1:24:15 Frodo awakens to teal highlights at Rivendell.
1:33:20 Boromir/Aragorn introduction sequence; heavily shaded teal.
1:36:10 Aragorn/Arwen on bridge at night; ditto
1:36:35 to 1:37:00 Notice the garish teal highlights in the shadow detail on Arwen's face. I found this particularly annoying.


I won't bother adding more, as I think you get the point. Much of the new coloration I will be able to get used to through repeated exposure. But some of it is just downright bad, not a "devil's mirk" as Elfhelm would describe in "The Ride of the Rohirrim". But Arwen's movie line that "the shadow does not hold sway" is not longer true. It does, and it is a teal shadow.

This is one of the main reviews that I was waiting for, and it helps me confirm that I am not insane.

[Yojimbo68]

I gotta say the screenshots of the EE editon of FOTR look awful. I'm a fan of THE FRENCH CONNECTION like many of you are fans of this trilogy. I feel your pain.

[gettodamoofies]

Originally Posted by atexp80

Does anyone own the Canadian release? I was wondering if the box and case is identical to the US release? I've searched the thread but couldn't find any info other than regarding the discs. I'm interested in if the slipbox has any French text on it and if the inserts in the cases are metallic or plain printing?

Thanks in advance.

Anyone?

[frogmort]

It looks dull green when Boromir gives his speech.

The Cyan... The Cyan.....

[Monolithium]

Originally Posted by cdias_md

anyone see any reason to hold on to the DVD extended editions?

They look good on a shelf.

[Maleku]

Odd way to watch a film I must say. To pause the movie every minute to observe the still picture quality and analyze what colors your eyes are picking up on the still frame. How do you talk the movie theatre into doing this for you when you venture out to see a film?

I think some of you are better off selling your gear and taking up a new hobby. I personally could not feel anymore stupid if I were to sit in my $13,000 home theatre pausing film all night to ensure I did not get ripped off on my $60 Lord of the Rings EE purchase.

I could not imagine your friends, date or significant other sitting in the room with you while you do this so I presume you are all alone getting angry over some green tint by your lonesome?

Some of you are spending a ton of money to frustrate yourselves. Kind of funny yet sad at the same time... mostly funny though.

[nathan_393]

I didn't see a single issue or change with TTT or ROTK - just chiming in here. Anybody discussing changes made to those - I don't think there were any.

[El_Jay]

Originally Posted by atexp80

Anyone?

Hi. The slipcover has English large text and French small text right below it. The flip side has French large and English small right below it. Why they created two sides to the slip and then proceeded to put both languages on each side is beyond me, and quite frankly it's stupid. It should have been English on one, French on the other.

On the actual box that holds all 3 BD cases, there is primarily English writing with verrrry small French writing below it. You have to squint to see it, and it kind of just looks like Elvish or something b/c of the font. Each of the three BD cases inside the box have pure English writing, with the flip side in French (which you only see if you pull it out of the case) and all of the discs themselves are completely free of French.

All in all, if you're a stickler for your packaging, there's almost no French here ruining the aesthetic. Personally I HATE that my Kill Bill packaging says Tuer Bill in almost the exact same size along the spine. It's maddening.

Hope that helps.

Edit: Also, the inserts have that metallic look.

[Lsalas76]

watched the 2nd half of FOTR and I thought it looked amazing.

on a different note I'm downloading the ROTK digital copy on itunes right now and its taking 5 hours. WTF

[gettodamoofies]

Originally Posted by El_Jay

Hi. The slipcover has English large text and French small text right below it. The flip side has French large and English small right below it. Why they created two sides to the slip and then proceeded to put both languages on each side is beyond me, and quite frankly it's stupid. It should have been English on one, French on the other.

On the actual box that holds all 3 BD cases, there is primarily English writing with verrrry small French writing below it. You have to squint to see it, and it kind of just looks like Elvish or something b/c of the font. Each of the three BD cases inside the box have pure English writing, with the flip side in French (which you only see if you pull it out of the case) and all of the discs themselves are completely free of French.

All in all, if you're a stickler for your packaging, there's almost no French here ruining the aesthetic. Personally I HATE that my Kill Bill packaging says Tuer Bill in almost the exact same size along the spine. It's maddening.

Hope that helps.

Edit: Also, the inserts have that metallic look.

Thank you kindly.

[PRO-630HD]

Originally Posted by Stinky-Dinkins

I stopped replying in this thread until I watched it completely. Well, I watched Fellowship and TTT. Unfortunately it wasn't possible for me to watch either without an ultra critical eye, but that's pretty much how I watch every home video release since getting into this hobby more than a decade ago... so:

FotR:
The green bias issues are not as bad as the worst screens would indicate when watching due to one's eyes auto adjusting. That being said - is it noticeable? Yes, at times, absolutely. Is it bothersome? Yes, in my opinion, at times (not throughout the whole film by any stretch.) The tint seems noticeable to me over Saruman at times, at times certain close ups of faces also exhibit the tint. It makes them look... not sure of the proper term. Not pallid exactly, like corpses a bit? Also in other scenes, with mist and the like, the tint is noticeable. Or over what was an off-white dress or robe, now it's tinged. It also affects scenes like Rivendell. That portion was once warm and almost "glowing," it felt like a place of comfort. It no longer has this feeling. It's noticeable, but like I said, not as bad as some of the worst screen shots would have one believe.... but still very far from "ideal."

What is worse than I expected, though, are the contrast issues. Blacks are crushed horribly. It's particularly evident in places like Moria with enormous swathes of fine detail being lost entirely. I actually took the film out at one point and took it to a tiny (relatively speaking) set downstairs (a professionally calibrated XBR960 HD CRT) that is renowned for its black level performance - specifically to guage the amount lost in these scenes. It is absurdly noticeable. Blacks are crushed.


TTT remains faithful to what is was previously so not much to report on there. Also, after watching TTT the changes in color timing in Fellowship become even more apparent. TTT (and I'm assuming, RotK, which I have not yet had the time to watch) so obviously do not suffer from these issues, in particular the new green tint. Scenes sometimes appear very much blue, or red, or green, (as they were originally intended) but they always feel and look much cleaner as they don't have the drab green tint playing with them. It makes FotR's timing all the more odd because it greatly distances it from the following two films, it does not bring it in line with them as one would expect and has been claimed. It does the opposite.


The increase in detail in FotR (apart from the crushed blacks and contrast issues) is very appreciable and impressive.

Also, I love these movies. Fellowship is probably my favorite movie of all time and en excuse to rewatch them is always, always welcome.

Overall I'm keeping this release as the increase in detail is always my number one concern - but it's far from perfect. An exchange with the contrast and color issues fixed would be appreciated, but I hold out very little hope.

I'm going to go watch RotK now. All three films spread out over 3 days with plenty of beer: Good times.

Great post and I completely agree. The color timing issues are very apparent going from FOTR to TTT. FOTR is a typical orange and teal transfer with increased black levels that is very apparent with many newer Warner transfers.

[motorheadache95]

Originally Posted by El_Jay

I have the exact opposite experience. The movies are so long even in theatrical cuts that I treat it more like watching the whole miniseries of Band of Brothers, so traditional ideas about pacing go right out the window.

I find that I can't even watch the TEs anymore because I miss all the changes in the EEs. There is just so much more included that I miss when it's not there. A lot of humor, too, especially in The Two Towers.

Different strokes for different folks, though...

That's exactly how I treat the films as well. Like a miniseries. I don't know how you or others actually watch these films, but I actually LIKE having the movies split across 2-discs, because for me, it essentially turns 3 LONG films into 6 films of reasonable length. Essentially, I watch the EEs like a 6-part miniseries.

[Stinky-Dinkins]

Originally Posted by PRO-630HD

Great post and I completely agree. The color timing issues are very apparent going from FOTR to TTT. FOTR is a typical orange and teal transfer with increased black levels that is very apparent with many newer Warner transfers.

It makes me wonder if Warner has one particular go-to colorist with a penchant for giving these re-graded films this odd slant, because it seems like an issue that happens way more often than not with re-tooled Warner releases.

[WorkShed]

Originally Posted by Cook

And why should TTT look like FOTR? They are 2 seperate films. Do all the Harry Potter films look alike? No they do not.

You can't compare Harry Potter to LOTR because Harry Potter started very saturated and slowly desaturated with each film and became almost monochromatic at the end to symbolize how the threat grows in each film. Two Towers SHOULD look like Fellowship because it looks like Return of the King.

All three films have slightlty different color grade so i dont see what good it does comparing the color grades.

All three films have slightly different color grades PER SCENE. There's no real overall tint in any film, except for this teal grade on this release of Fellowship.

After ten years im sure he saw areas that could be changed and improved.

Absolutely, the image was soft due to excessive DNR that was applied during the grading process. He changed his mind on the soft focus for Two Towers. I'm happy that he didn't decide to add Martin Freeman to the opening sequence or change the look of Gollum. He could have, but didn't. I don't understand why you would have GORGEOUS photography and decide to dull the white levels ten years later. It's not something that makes sense.

I wish he would have taken some of the blue out of Helms Deep though. That scene has alway been way too blue.

Helms Deep takes place at night and the rest of the series has night scenes (except the EE FOTR BD) that take place washed in blue. I love the look of the Helms Deep battle.

The film doesnt look dull and it isnt green in every single scene.

Like Ken said, that's because a teal tint is complementary to orange, so the Rivendell sequences are cooled, instead of a strong orange. They won't appear teal in those instances.

Originally Posted by frogmort

I think it's kind of funny that different peoples calibration settings are called in to question, when discussing FOTR specifically. Hmmm, interesting.

Thank you. I brought up Two Towers in terms of contrast because you would think the three films would have the same exposure, but Two Towers pops while Fellowship just doesn't, which it had before.

Originally Posted by El_Jay

The few times it does stand out make me feel in my gut that something was accidentally screwed up between PJ seeing the master and it going to print. I'm assuming engineers that handle that do a rigorous A/Bing process, especially on a trilogy that is so heavily pushed as "one long movie". The lack of continuity just seems so contrary to everything they had done up to this point.

I agree. 2+1 just doesn't equal three in this case. It doesn't feel right.

When the Sapphire Series Gladiator fiasco happened, I didn't even pop the disc in my player before I was incensed. Just knowing that the DNR was so prevalent got my ire going, by the time I watched it I was furious. I don't have to have it ruin my actual viewing experience to ruin the experience as a whole, know what I mean?

The thing is too that Paramount still says that the first Gladiator was just fine, yet they don't sell that version anymore. I honestly think the same thing could happen here. WB did exchange the Matrix Revolutions disc over a couple of frames.

[ApolloOne]

Originally Posted by Danielle Ni Dhighe

It looks much worse as stills than as a moving image. Doubters need to watch it in motion first, instead of letting the Screenshot Brigade try to scare them.

This is so true, and is a terrible trap beginners fall into when trying to enter the world of color correction. You must always consider medium and context. What looks dark and wrong as a still on a computer screen will look completely proper when viewed in full motion on a calibrated video monitor. What looks right and balanced on a computer screen will look way too blown out when viewed on the video monitor. That's why shops spend obscene amounts of money on top quality monitors--so that they have the best possible screen on which they can judge what they're doing.