The Lord of the Rings: The Motion Picture Trilogy (Extended Edition) (2001-2003)

[flodsby]

Originally Posted by HeKS

Indeed. Everybody, just do like me and flodsby

Those samples are coming up in a minute, flodsby.

HeKS

So, when you finally get the picture the way you think it should be, are you going to apply to the whole film? how long would it take to do that. I really don't know anything about that kinda thing.

[Ken Brown]

Originally Posted by flodsby

Indeed Ken. Just look at me and HeKS. we had our difference, discussed it, and moved on. Can't we all just get along?

I couldn't agree more. I commend both of you guys for putting aside your differences and contributing to the thread equally. You don't have to agree, and you can actually help each other see flaws or strengths in your individual points you might not otherwise see.

Two people can have two different opinions and still inhabit the same space. If you don't want to read about green tints, then don't post about green tints and the people who see them. Talk about TTT or ROTK or LOTR or anything else that interests you more. Other LOTR discussions can occur simultaneously while the green tint discussion develops. When people follow the rules, we've proved how easy it is to do so

Again, report offending posts. The mods can't be everywhere at once and they rely on members reporting insulting and attacking posts to keep things in line. Every member has the ability to officially assist our mods in keeping things civil, yet very few actually take advantage.

If you feel the thread growing abusive or unruly, report those who are abusive and unruly. Thanks!

[HeKS]

Per flodsby's request:

Ok, first off, I recalibrated my color balance using that Aragorn on the mountain shot again by reapplying the green tint and then adjusting the balances until the result was as close as possible to the EE version, then I just turned off the green tint and turned my contrast fix back on.

Here's the latest Aragorn one:


Now here's a series of shots with Gandalf and the Balrog. I'm pretty sure my color correction (tint removal and contrast fix) is correct here, in spite of the difference between my fix and the TE version. I don't know about anybody else, but I always found it kinda weird that Gandalf's face was that dark and unaffected, in terms of color, by the massive flame being "flexed" right in front of him. The EE clearly resolves this to a fairly significant degree in spite of the tint and contrast boost, so the result of my fix is, I think to be expected. But I'm interested in your thoughts.

Here you go:

[flodsby]

Originally Posted by HeKS

Per flodsby's request:

Ok, first off, I recalibrated my color balance using that Aragorn on the mountain shot again by reapplying the green tint and then adjusting the balances until the result was as close as possible to the EE version, then I just turned off the green tint and turned my contrast fix back on.

Here's the latest Aragorn one:


Now here's a series of shots with Gandalf and the Balrog. I'm pretty sure my color correction (tint removal and contrast fix) is correct here, in spite of the difference between my fix and the TE version. I don't know about anybody else, but I always found it kinda weird that Gandalf's face was that dark and unaffected, in terms of color, by the massive flame being "flexed" right in front of him. The EE clearly resolves this to a fairly significant degree in spite of the tint and contrast boost, so the result of my fix is, I think to be expected. But I'm interested in your thoughts.

Here you go:

WOW what a difference in contrast. It also looks a whole lot more natural lighting in Gandalf's face. thanks for the multiple pics btw.

[HeKS]

Originally Posted by flodsby

So, when you finally get the picture the way you think it should be, are you going to apply to the whole film? how long would it take to do that. I really don't know anything about that kinda thing.

It would take a little while, especially considering the length of the movie, but it wouldn't be too bad.

Once I get it right in photoshop I can just recreate the same filter set in Premiere and run the video through if I decide to do that, but I'm really hoping that there's a replacement program instead, because I'm becoming more and more convinced that this is an error. I believe that's where the evidence points IMO. I could always be wrong, but I'm having an incredibly difficult time believing that Jackson intentionally put a green filter over the entire film, start to finish ... and after he had put the titles in. It just doesn't make sense. The only seeming way to explain it is an extra track sitting above all the video and title tracks that has a PHOTO FILTER > GREEN (or some equivalent) on it and maybe a contrast boost along with it.

It's not difficult to imagine a scenario where something like this was added to test with a specific scene or for a specific purpose and was then turned off, but at some point got accidentally turned back on and nobody noticed. I've done stupid stuff like this myself, and didn't notice till after I had spent hours encoding the end result.

[raygendreau]

Originally Posted by HeKS

I'd say I'm about 99% sure on my identification of what I've been calling the "effective tint" color, and it seems to be consistent throughout the film. What's making this more complicated in arriving at a correct result for my fix is the uncertainty surrounding the contrast boost. There are numerous scenes where it feels oppressive and some, like in Moria, where it seems like it just has to be a mistake, and applying the same contrast filter to both kinds of scenes has essentially the same effect (except that moria has bucket of black crush where detail is lost), which suggest that both types of scenes might be mistakes.

There's a third category of scene where the contrast seems more or less acceptable, but applying the correction filter seems to mostly make these scenes better, and if the other two types of scenes could reasonably be interpreted as mistakes, there's not much preventing a reasonable guess that it's all a mistake, which implies a consistent contrast boost across the board.

The problem here is that it's impossible to know what scenes might had an intentional contrast adjustment made before the blanket contrast boost, so if I use the wrong scene to calibrate my filter for neutralizing the boost then it will be off everywhere.

What is the probability that both an unintended blanket tint and an additional blanket contrast boost (unintended) were applied? If, as you say, it is impossible to determine the intentional boost applied to the scenes, you are working with too many unknown variables to come to any conclusion that would have a high enough confidence level to warrant that WHE investigate the matter any further than they already have.

I admire the work that you and others have put into this effort.

[Ray_Rogers]

I'm not going to watch these until I get my HTPC/video game/etcetera all-in-one thing I'm building finished. Is there a software program to watch Blu-ray disc titles where one could also adjust the tinting if needed be? Possibly could "save" the same visual adjustments for the discs I guess. Just a removal/adjustment of the green filter for The Fellowship of the Ring.
As I already mentioned I'll be buying this but not until I get my computer finished. It's more of a priority.
How's the sound though?

[HeKS]

Originally Posted by flodsby

WOW what a difference in contrast. It also looks a whole lot more natural lighting in Gandalf's face. thanks for the multiple pics btw.

No problem.

Yeah, the contrast makes a difference. Someone yesterday had said all I did was turn the contrast way up. The funny thing is that I'm doing the opposite. I'm turning the contrast down quite a bit to gain back some of the detail that it seems was intended to be noticeable.

I agree with you about Gandalf's face. I don't know what anyone else will say, but I find the "fixed" result matches quite well with the context of the shot, where you have this MASSIVE flame essentially right in his face. That would be fairly bright and would DEFINITELY have a big impact on his skin coloring. The EE seems to recognize and correct this from the TE, because you can see in the EE wide shots that Gandalf's robe is significantly more reddish and impacted by the firelight than in the TE, even though the green tint mutes that fact to some degree.

[Ray_Rogers]

Originally Posted by HeKS

No problem.

Yeah, the contrast makes a difference. Someone yesterday had said all I did was turn the contrast way up. The funny thing is that I'm doing the opposite. I'm turning the contrast down quite a bit to gain back some of the detail that it seems was intended to be noticeable.

I agree with you about Gandalf's face. I don't know what anyone else will say, but I find the "fixed" result matches quite well with the context of the shot, where you have this MASSIVE flame essentially right in his face. That would be fairly bright and would DEFINITELY have a big impact on his skin coloring. The EE seems to recognize and correct this from the TE, because you can see in the EE wide shots that Gandalf's robe is significantly more reddish and impacted by the firelight than in the TE, even though the green tint mutes that fact to some degree.

Why not match the lighting and more with comparisons or guide from the Extended Edition DVDs? Yes Blu-ray has more colour depth but it could be used as a base/foundation to work off of.

[amoergosum]

Originally Posted by HeKS

Per flodsby's request:

Ok, first off, I recalibrated my color balance using that Aragorn on the mountain shot again by reapplying the green tint and then adjusting the balances until the result was as close as possible to the EE version, then I just turned off the green tint and turned my contrast fix back on.

Here's the latest Aragorn one:

The colors obviously look better in your fixed screenshot (no green/cyan tint) but I think there's WAY too much contrast. The contrast of the TE is fine.
Just take a look at Aragorn's coat...there's a lot more shadow detail in the screenshot of the TE.

EDIT: Well...I guess you didn't fix the boosted contrast of the EE screenshot.

[HeKS]

Originally Posted by raygendreau

What is the probability that both an unintended blanket tint and an additional blanket contrast boost (unintended) were applied? If, as you say, it is impossible to determine the intentional boost applied to the scenes, you are working with too many unknown variables to come to any conclusion that would have a high enough confidence level to warrant that WHE investigate the matter any further than they already have.

I admire the work that you and others have put into this effort.

I would say that the probability is very high. Chances are some scenes had some intentional contrast changes made, but it seems that an additional blanket contrast boost was applied over top of everything. It might be impossible to say with 100% certainty that we've gotten the contrast fix EXACTLY right, but we can make some educated assumptions about a reasonable "safe-zone", if you will. For example, what is the likeliness that Jackson wanted the opening Shire scenes to feel oppressive or dim? My guess is pretty low. And when it comes to Moria, what are the chances that he wanted the reveal shot of the Moria caverns after Gandalf makes the comment about hoping their presence goes unnoticed to be so dark that you can't even really get a sense of what they're walking into? I'd say pretty slim, because reveal shots are generally designed to, you know, reveal things. I mean, compare the end of that pull-out reveal in the TE and EE versions and notice that in the EE version you can hardly even notice the bridge in the foreground. So much of the scene is just black.

So, I'm essentially using a combination of checking the TE image and trying to neutralize the oppressive feeling of certain scenes as a guide to a reasonable safe-zone for what is likely intended.

But I don't think the inability to identify the EXACT level of the consistent contrast boost means that further investigation by WHV is unwarranted. It's still a fact that there IS a massive contrast boost across the film and we can be very confident in the bizarre nature of the consistent green filter applied over the entire film, including titles. The application of a blanket anything over every frame of the film flies in the face of Jackson's whole approach to movie-making so far, including all previous releases of these films and the current releases of TT and ROTK. So I think there's plenty of warrant for further investigation by WHV or comment by Jackson.

Take care,
HeKS

[HeKS]

Originally Posted by Ray_Rogers

Why not match the lighting and more with comparisons or guide from the Extended Edition DVDs? Yes Blu-ray has more colour depth but it could be used as a base/foundation to work off of.

The problem with that is that even apart from the tint and contrast boost, there's a lot of difference between the EE blu-ray and the EE DVD, so the EE DVD doesn't serve as a very reliable guide for the color grading changes made with the new HD master.

HeKS

[MEB]

Originally Posted by frogmort

I kind of look at it this way, even if FOTR does seem to be a little dark and tinted, and even if I rated it a 70 out of 100 on the picture quality, this is what I come up with:

FOTR
Movie: 100%
Audio: 100%
Video: 70%

TTT
Movie: 100%
Audio: 100%
Video: 100%

ROTK
Movie: 100%
Audio: 100%
Video: 100%

I just finished ROTK and this is how I'd rate the set.

FOTR
Movie: 100%
Audio: 100%
Video: 60%

TTT
Movie: 100%
Audio: 100%
Video: 95%

ROTK
Movie: 100%
Audio: 95%
Video: 100%

FOTR has the tint and the black crush working against it. My TV reproduces exactly what is on the disc rather than masking it so I'm a little more disappointed with the video of FOTR.

I spent some additional time looking at TTT and I have to knock a few points off of its video too. It's overly bright and colors are undersaturated. Not significantly, but quite noticeable to me.

ROTK's video is absolutely amazing. Easily the most stunning of the set. But I did notice a fluctuation in the audio level at two spots (one rather after the other). I suspect most people wouldn't even notice, but I did.

Mark

[HeKS]

Originally Posted by amoergosum

The colors obviously look better in your fixed screenshot (no green/cyan tint) but I think there's WAY too much contrast. The contrast of the TE is fine.
Just take a look at Aragorn's coat...there's a lot more shadow detail in the screenshot of the TE.

EDIT: Well...I guess you didn't fix the boosted contrast of the EE screenshot.

Do you mean there's way too little contrast? I've reduced the contrast from what was in the EE shot. But the color timing of this shot in the EE, even apart from the tint and contrast boost, seems to be significantly different from the TE version on multiple levels.

HeKS

[amoergosum]

Originally Posted by HeKS

Do you mean there's way too little contrast? I've reduced the contrast from what was in the EE shot. But the color timing of this shot in the EE, even apart from the tint and contrast boost, seems to be significantly different from the TE version on multiple levels.

HeKS

There's too much contrast in the fixed version.

[Ray_Rogers]

Originally Posted by HeKS

The problem with that is that even apart from the tint and contrast boost, there's a lot of difference between the EE blu-ray and the EE DVD, so the EE DVD doesn't serve as a very reliable guide for the color grading changes made with the new HD master.

HeKS

Well more as a template? If it were me when I get my computer finished I'd attempt to match, sort of, the EE Blu-ray to the EE DVD albiet as I mentioned Blu-ray has far greater colour and many other things DVD just can't do. Or just get it to look like the TE Blu THEN colour match to the EE DVD?
I don't know if I'd bother to care because by the time I buy it later in the year after I get my computer finished WHV or Peter Jackson might announce a replacement program. They did go back and re colour time everything similar as they did when they released it.
But what would I know? As I mentioned I won't be buying this until possibly in October at the soonest.

EDIT: I meant grading.

[HeKS]

Originally Posted by amoergosum

There's too much contrast in the fixed version.

Well, unfortunately, I can't reduce the contrast much more than I have. The only other option I have is to increase the brightness, but that requires a more subjective choice that doesn't work consistently across the board. And there isn't really any guide for how bright or contrast-y it should be, because this scene has been graded completely different than it was in the TE version.

[HeKS]

Originally Posted by Ray_Rogers

Well more as a template? If it were me when I get my computer finished I'd attempt to match, sort of, the EE Blu-ray to the EE DVD albiet as I mentioned Blu-ray has far greater colour and many other things DVD just can't do. Or just get it to look like the TE Blu THEN colour match to the EE DVD?
I don't know if I'd bother to care because by the time I buy it later in the year after I get my computer finished WHV or Peter Jackson might announce a replacement program. They did go back and re colour time everything similar as they did when they released it.
But what would I know? As I mentioned I won't be buying this until possibly in October at the soonest.

That approach would make sense if I was just trying to do my own color grade or trying to match the EE blu version to the EE DVD version. However, what I'm trying to do right now is limited entirely to trying to discern what the current EE blu video looks like underneath the green tint and contrast boost, and because the new HD master was regraded from scratch with major changes from all previous releases, there's nothing that can really serve as a template to help me get to that.

Take care,
HeKS

[Sean72]

Nice work HeKS. You won't ever be able to bring back the shadow detail that has been clipped into black and there is a fair amount of that in the BD EE. I know you are aware of that, it's just unfortunate that there's not a 100% workaround to fixing this problem from the discs.

It will never be properly fixed until it comes in the form of corrected discs from the studio.

Hopefully they will come through.

[HeKS]

Here's my latest filter set applied to Boromir at the Council of Elrond.