The Lord of the Rings: The Motion Picture Trilogy (Extended Edition) (2001-2003)

[raygendreau]

Kansas City Library (Missouri, USA) Centerpiece of the library.

[nathan_393]

Originally Posted by raygendreau

Kansas City Library (Missouri, USA) Centerpiece of the library.

Now that's pretty cool!

[radagast]

Originally Posted by Witch King of Angmar

Some more questions:

1) Do balrogs have wings? Can they fly?
2) Who is older? Treebeard or Tom Bombadil?
3) Who is more powerful? Gandalf the White or Tom Bombadil?

1) This is an easy question. I read a debate about it several years ago. It amazed me that some people stubbornly held to the position that Balrogs have no wings. Here are two passages:

"His (Gandalf's) enemy halted again, facing him, and the shadow about it (the Balrog) reached out like two vast wings."

This was used by the opponents of the idea to say that the shadow seemed like wings. However then there is this later:

"It stepped forward slowly on to the bridge, and suddenly it drew itself up to a great height, and it's wings were spread from wall to wall..."

That seems obvious to me. It is saying explicitely that Balrogs have wings.

The second half of the question? It seems that they can't fly since it fell into the chasm.


2) IIRC one of Tolkien's writings said that elves woke the Ents from their sleep, but I think Bombadil was around longer. What say you, Grand Bob?

3) Bombadil doesn't seem to be a being of great power. He does have power over the Barrow Wights and the Ring had no power over him, but Gandalf is a Maiar from the undying lands. Tolkien describes the wizards or Istari as being of an "angelic order".

At the council of Elrond, Gandalf said that if Bombadil could not withstand the full power of Sauron. However there are hints that the Maiar could have battled Sauron but were commanded not to directly challenge Sauron.

Answer: Gandalf

[Witch King of Angmar]

thanks for answering the questions, radagast.

[Grand Bob]

Originally Posted by radagast

1) This is an easy question. I read a debate about it several years ago. It amazed me that some people stubbornly held to the position that Balrogs have no wings. Here are two passages:

"His (Gandalf's) enemy halted again, facing him, and the shadow about it (the Balrog) reached out like two vast wings."

This was used by the opponents of the idea to say that the shadow seemed like wings. However then there is this later:

"It stepped forward slowly on to the bridge, and suddenly it drew itself up to a great height, and it's wings were spread from wall to wall..."

That seems obvious to me. It is saying explicitely that Balrogs have wings.

The second half of the question? It seems that they can't fly since it fell into the chasm.


2) IIRC one of Tolkien's writings said that elves woke the Ents from their sleep, but I think Bombadil was around longer. What say you, Grand Bob?

3) Bombadil doesn't seem to be a being of great power. He does have power over the Barrow Wights and the Ring had no power over him, but Gandalf is a Maiar from the undying lands. Tolkien describes the wizards or Istari as being of an "angelic order".

At the council of Elrond, Gandalf said that if Bombadil could not withstand the full power of Sauron. However there are hints that the Maiar could have battled Sauron but were commanded not to directly challenge Sauron.

Answer: Gandalf

Agree with your answers to 1) and 3). Question 2) is tougher. Although Tolkien kept Bombadil's origin and nature a mystery - purposefully as he explains in his letters, we may reasonably assume he is a Maia, and therefore by definition would be older than Treebeard, since his being would be beyond time. However, the age of Bombadil in his form as an old man might be about the same age as Treebeard. As Christopher Tolkien states in The History of Middle Earth:

"In FR Tom Bombadil calls himself 'Eldest' ... and the reference here to his having seen 'the Sun rise in the West and the Moon following' was dropped (though Tom remembers the first acorn and the first rain drop'...). These words are extremely surprising, for in Quenta Silmarillion which my father had only set aside at the end of the previous year it is told that 'Rana [the Moon] was first wrought and made ready, and first rose into the region of the stars, and was the elder of the lights, as was Silpirion of the Trees.

Tom Bombadil was 'there' during the Ages of the Stars, before Morgoth came back to Middle-earth after the destruction of the Trees; is it to this event that he referred in his words 'He knew the dark under the stars when it was fearless - before the Dark Lord came from outside'? It must be said that it seems unlikely that Bombadil would refer to Valinor across the Great Sea as 'Outside', especially since this was long ages before 'before the seas were bent', when Numenor was drowned ...It seems then that either Bombadil must in fact refer to Morgoth's return from Valinor to Middle-earth, in company with Ungoliant and bearing the Silmarils, or else that my father had developed a new conception of the earliest history of Melkor."

Therefore, it is possible that the Maia Bombadil may have taken the form of "Tom" around the time of the creation of Treebeard - or even later. In either case, Bombadil's spiritual being is certainly older than Treebeard.

[Witch King of Angmar]

Originally Posted by Grand Bob

Agree with your answers to 1) and 3). Question 2) is tougher. Although Tolkien kept Bombadil's origin and nature a mystery - purposefully as he explains in his letters, we may reasonably assume he is a Maia, and therefore by definition would be older than Treebeard, since his being would be beyond time. However, the age of Bombadil in his form as an old man might be about the same age as Treebeard. As Christopher Tolkien states in The History of Middle Earth:

"In FR Tom Bombadil calls himself 'Eldest' ... and the reference here to his having seen 'the Sun rise in the West and the Moon following' was dropped (though Tom remembers the first acorn and the first rain drop'...). These words are extremely surprising, for in Quenta Silmarillion which my father had only set aside at the end of the previous year it is told that 'Rana [the Moon] was first wrought and made ready, and first rose into the region of the stars, and was the elder of the lights, as was Silpirion of the Trees.

Tom Bombadil was 'there' during the Ages of the Stars, before Morgoth came back to Middle-earth after the destruction of the Trees; is it to this event that he referred in his words 'He knew the dark under the stars when it was fearless - before the Dark Lord came from outside'? It must be said that it seems unlikely that Bombadil would refer to Valinor across the Great Sea as 'Outside', especially since this was long ages before 'before the seas were bent', when Numenor was drowned ...It seems then that either Bombadil must in fact refer to Morgoth's return from Valinor to Middle-earth, in company with Ungoliant and bearing the Silmarils, or else that my father had developed a new conception of the earliest history of Melkor."

Therefore, it is possible that the Maia Bombadil may have taken the form of "Tom" around the time of the creation of Treebeard - or even later. In either case, Bombadil's spiritual being is certainly older than Treebeard.

thanks for answering the question no.2 in detail.

[frogmort]

Originally Posted by Grand Bob

Agree with your answers to 1) and 3). Question 2) is tougher. Although Tolkien kept Bombadil's origin and nature a mystery - purposefully as he explains in his letters, we may reasonably assume he is a Maia, and therefore by definition would be older than Treebeard, since his being would be beyond time. However, the age of Bombadil in his form as an old man might be about the same age as Treebeard. As Christopher Tolkien states in The History of Middle Earth:

"In FR Tom Bombadil calls himself 'Eldest' ... and the reference here to his having seen 'the Sun rise in the West and the Moon following' was dropped (though Tom remembers the first acorn and the first rain drop'...). These words are extremely surprising, for in Quenta Silmarillion which my father had only set aside at the end of the previous year it is told that 'Rana [the Moon] was first wrought and made ready, and first rose into the region of the stars, and was the elder of the lights, as was Silpirion of the Trees.

Tom Bombadil was 'there' during the Ages of the Stars, before Morgoth came back to Middle-earth after the destruction of the Trees; is it to this event that he referred in his words 'He knew the dark under the stars when it was fearless - before the Dark Lord came from outside'? It must be said that it seems unlikely that Bombadil would refer to Valinor across the Great Sea as 'Outside', especially since this was long ages before 'before the seas were bent', when Numenor was drowned ...It seems then that either Bombadil must in fact refer to Morgoth's return from Valinor to Middle-earth, in company with Ungoliant and bearing the Silmarils, or else that my father had developed a new conception of the earliest history of Melkor."

Therefore, it is possible that the Maia Bombadil may have taken the form of "Tom" around the time of the creation of Treebeard - or even later. In either case, Bombadil's spiritual being is certainly older than Treebeard.

Nice!

The way that Bombadil plays with the ring almost like it's a toy, whereas Gandalf believes the ring is perilous, and would refuse to possess it out of fear of it overcoming him, kind of makes me wonder sometimes if he (Bombadil) is possibly Eru Iluvatar manifest in human form?

If I remember correctly, at the Council of Elrond, when they mentioned giving the ring to Bombadil for hiding/safe keeping, Gandalf said that although the ring may not have any power over him, he might just forget about it, or toss it by the wayside, but Gandalf himself was afraid to possess it.

I think Tolkien was deliberately ambiguous about him.

[radagast]

Originally Posted by frogmort

Nice!

The way that Bombadil plays with the ring almost like it's a toy, whereas Gandalf believes the ring is perilous, and would refuse to possess it out of fear of it overcoming him, kind of makes me wonder sometimes if he (Bombadil) is possibly Eru Iluvatar manifest in human form?

Eru, being the Almighty in Tolkien's legend, is unlikely to have come to Middle Earth in physical form. And if he was Eru, he COULD have withstood Sauron, Melkor or anyone else that might have attacked him. But Gandalf said Bombadil would have eventually fallen should Mordor come against him. So I doubt it.

[frogmort]

Originally Posted by radagast

Eru, being the Almighty in Tolkien's legend, is unlikely to have come to Middle Earth in physical form. And if he was Eru, he COULD have withstood Sauron, Melkor or anyone else that might have attacked him. But Gandalf said Bombadil would have eventually fallen should Mordor come against him. So I doubt it.

Yeah, I guess you're right. It was just a theory. Thanks for bustin' my bubble!

[Witch King of Angmar]

Originally Posted by frogmort

Nice!

The way that Bombadil plays with the ring almost like it's a toy, whereas Gandalf believes the ring is perilous, and would refuse to possess it out of fear of it overcoming him, kind of makes me wonder sometimes if he (Bombadil) is possibly Eru Iluvatar manifest in human form?

If I remember correctly, at the Council of Elrond, when they mentioned giving the ring to Bombadil for hiding/safe keeping, Gandalf said that although the ring may not have any power over him, he might just forget about it, or toss it by the wayside, but Gandalf himself was afraid to possess it.

I think Tolkien was deliberately ambiguous about him.

Tom Bombadil & The Witch King are the same person.

Read this.

[frogmort]

Originally Posted by Witch King of Angmar

Tom Bombadil & The Witch King are the same person.

Read this.

That guy is crazy, but makes some interesting connections.

Edit: Did you notice the little quote at the bottom of the page?:

"The ol' Witch-king is a merry fellow, Dark black his cowl is, and his crown is yellow..."

[nathan_393]

Originally Posted by Witch King of Angmar

Tom Bombadil & The Witch King are the same person.

Read this.

That's amaaaazing. Don't buy the theory but I love it all the same

[ApolloOne]

Attention people with birthdays coming up...

If you're a member at WBshop.com, they send you a 20% off coupon for your birthday, good the month of your birthday. I used mine this month to pre-order Lord of the Rings Extended for $67.96. Not bad.

So if you have a birthday coming up, you might want to sign up at WBshop.

[Todd Smith]

Originally Posted by ApolloOne

Attention people with birthdays coming up...

If you're a member at WBshop.com, they send you a 20% off coupon for your birthday, good the month of your birthday. I used mine this month to pre-order Lord of the Rings Extended for $67.96. Not bad.

So if you have a birthday coming up, you might want to sign up at WBshop.

Is the coupon good anywhere?

[ApolloOne]

Sorry. I should've been more specific. It's good only at WBshop.

Originally Posted by Todd Smith

Is the coupon good anywhere?

[radagast]

Originally Posted by ApolloOne

Attention people with birthdays coming up...

If you're a member at WBshop.com, they send you a 20% off coupon for your birthday, good the month of your birthday. I used mine this month to pre-order Lord of the Rings Extended for $67.96. Not bad.

So if you have a birthday coming up, you might want to sign up at WBshop.

My birthday is in June. The Superman BD set and LOTR are coming out in June. Can the coupon be used for an entire order or just one item?

[threefiftyrocket]

I really like how I learn more about LotR and the mythology of middle earth by reading this forum than if I searched from shore to shore of the vast ocean of knowledge called the internet! ha ha great reading in here!

[Constitution 101]

Originally Posted by Witch King of Angmar

Tom Bombadil & The Witch King are the same person.

Read this.

Now THAT is interesting...

[nathan_393]

Originally Posted by Constitution 101

Now THAT is interesting...

I wouldn't put any stock in it, but it's a cool theory just to hear about.

[Constitution 101]

Originally Posted by nathan_393

I wouldn't put any stock in it, but it's a cool theory just to hear about.

It'd be interesting to see what Tolkien's son has to say about it it...