LG's new OLED TVs

[crazyBLUE]

Originally Posted by Robert Zohn

Brent, I wish you lived close to us or could visit my showroom to see for yourself how OLED compares the best LCD TV. I have the 55", 65" and 77" OLED TVs on display and all of the flagship LCD/LED 4K TVs all lined up in one room.

Novices and all levels of pros and a/v enthusiasts agree that OLED is far superior to the very best LCD/LED displays. If you have the time please stop by a Best Buy store as most have the 55EC9300 2014 1080p OLED on display.

LCD/LED TV look great in high ambient light, but once the room gets dark OLED looks significantly better than the best full array LCD/LED display.

-Robert

This is an image from my projector in My Home Theater that has no light in it at all & There are Black Bars on top & bottom because it is an image from a 2:40 Aspect Ratio & not A 1:85. Blacks do not get better then this as well as the image

[Robert Zohn]

Beautiful! ^. I also love dedicated cinemas. I have a JVC RS66 with a high-end 7.4 surround sound system in our home and Sony's 4K VW600ES with a 7.2.4 Atmos theater in our store's dedicated demo theater.

I LOVE theaters.

-Robert

[raygendreau]

Originally Posted by Robert Zohn

The vertical line gets fainter as the panel breaks-in. It takes about 400 hrs to be all but gone. I have not run the 4K OLEDs any longer to know if they completely go away, but several of our clients report the vertical lines have completely disappeared. The vertical line is only seen at about 10% luminance and with a full field solid grey pattern.

I don't see the noise so I can't comment on what they are seeing. But David Mackenzie, who I hold a lot of respect for says it's not in the content. This has been a hotly debated issue.

-Robert

It sure is! As I understand it, they are (Henninger and Mackenzie) seeing the noise while watching a BD, The Dark Knight and another BD were mentioned. So, they were watching upscaled content which is graded for BD and LCD specs. They don't approach the MLL that the OLED's can achieve. That might explain why they do not see the noise on the LCD displays with the same content running. I would also wonder if the player is specked to handle those levels. Did they see any noise in native 4K content? How about downloaded content from a Sony FMP X10 media server? Did they look at that?

[Robert Zohn]

Very good ^^ points. They only viewed content briefly with two BD titles. Most of the time was calibrating the panel with and without the Lumagen Radiance processor.

-Robert

[raygendreau]

Originally Posted by Robert Zohn

Very good ^^ points. They only viewed content briefly with two BD titles. Most of the time was calibrating the panel with and without the Lumagen Radiance processor.

-Robert

Hopefully you will get them back to track down the noise issue. I just got a bit further in that thread in the other forum and Henninger did say the noise was not seen in 4K content. Also, I don't want members to think it was a totally negative review:

"I applaud Robert Zohn for inviting such scrutiny of a TV that he sells. At the end of the day, when we shut off all the lights and compared the calibrated and tweaked 77EG9700 to all the LED-lit LCD TVs in the showroom, it looked better—a lot better. From a normal viewing distance, its positive attributes trumped any of the flaws I've mentioned. The seductive combination of OLED's high contrast and color accuracy are sure to inspire a few well-heeled buyers to invest in this bleeding-edge TV.

Crucially, if the vertical-band uniformity issue is a one-off defect, what remains is the noise issue. According to David MacKenzie, there is a strong possibility that the noise results from the way the 77EG9700 processes color, as opposed to an issue with the panel itself. Ideally, I'd like a few more days to experiment with a 77EG9700—I'd love to find a solution to the noise problem—but my time was up.

The irony of high-end gear is that the closer you get to perfection, the easier it is to spot any flaws. Even so, if you compare the latest generation of OLEDs to what was available just a year ago, you can clearly see that LG has made tremendous progress. At the 2014 Value Electronics Flat-Panel Shootout, LG's 55EC9300 tied for first with Samsung's PN64F8500 plasma. But the 55EC9700 had many more image quality-related issues than the 77EG9700. If Robert hosts another shootout this year, I suspect the latest OLEDs will be unbeatable."


.

Mark Henninger (from that other forum)

[vinnie97]

^I don't know, all that praise comes off as feigned and may do more damage to the WOLED venture than good (why brag about Google search placement if you don't have an ulterior motive?). There's just a whole lot I can't trust about those observations. Hope I'm wrong but I've picked up on a disturbing pattern with his OLED coverage in comparison to the comparably forgiving remarks and benefit of the doubt he gives the LCD panels he previews/reviews.

[raygendreau]

Originally Posted by vinnie97

The UHD alliance should defer to LG since they have the best display tech on the condition that they fix their longstanding CMS and grayscale software processing issues. Win win!

Re CMS issue. I found this review which indicates that it might not be an issue:

Heeding advice from LG’s senior engineers, we aligned several settings on our 55EC930V (U.S 55EC9300) sample to their requisite values (or else the 20-point white balance controls would misfire) before proceeding to calibrate greyscale. We first used the two-point (including [Low, Blue] which skewed blue accuracy on the American EC9300 model) then the 20-point [White Balance] controls, and it appeared that LG has fixed the problematic controls perhaps by way of a firmware update."

"Using the onboard 20p WB controls which worked well but only if adhering to tips from LG’s engineers, we adjusted point gamma at every 5% stimulus interval to 2.4 for midtones and highlights, while aligning near-black gamma to between 2.1 and 2.2 to prevent shadow detail from being obscured

http://www.hdtvtest.co.uk/news/55ec9...1412163962.htm

These 1080P EC9300's are now under $3,000 at Best Buy and Amazon and are highly rated by buyers (93 reviews at BB and over 40 at Amazon)

[vinnie97]

That's great to hear. How this translates to the 77" is an unknown quantity. I need a panel offering more real estate than 55"!

[raygendreau]

Originally Posted by vinnie97

That's great to hear. How this translates to the 77" is an unknown quantity. I need a panel offering more real estate than 55"!

Yes. I would like at least a 65" HDR OLED. So, I will start looking at them 4th quarter 2015 or 1st quarter 2016. I will be looking for a Netflix and UHD Alliance decal on the display. It wouldn't surprise me if Panasonic and Sony are back in the OLED mix by then, using LGD panels with value added by engineering. More competition, lower prices. Samsung may enter the mix as well with Kateeva inkjet printed panels.

From what I have read, more than 40% of the LGD OLED panels sre going into Chinese displays, while North America is only getting around 18%. The price points on the Chinese displays are about 1/3 the prices offered in the U.S.,

[raygendreau]

Regarding the possibility of a software update enabling HDR on 2nd and current generation LG OLED displays: The displays are already capable of handling the low luminance requirements of Dolby Vision.

See the preference study results on page 6: https://www.smpte.org/sites/default/...-2-handout.pdf

The 100 percentile viewer preference level for black stimuli is within the capability of the LG OLED displays, while the best consumer LCD displays will only satisfy about 60 % of viewers. This is based on mixed contrast content. For example:

LG 55EC9300 (HD OLED) Calibrated black level (4x4 ANSI) 0.0004 cd/m2

http://www.hdtvtest.co.uk/news/55ec9...1412163962.htm

For the Samsung JS 9500 (SUHD LCD) “We measured the JS9000 at 0.06cd/m2 using a 0IRE window”

https://www.avforums.com/review/sams...v-review.11232

While we don’t have a UHD Alliance HDR standard yet, Dolby Vision seems to have a lot of support, including from LG, so I think it is reasonable to assume that 2nd and 3rd generation LG OLED displays will show around 80 to 90 % of HDR content as HDR even with 500 nit panels and the 800 nit panels, when they are introduced, will be able to display nearly all of the HDR content. I doubt that the standard will require 4000 nit panels, which is preferred by Dolby for peak luminance.

[vinnie97]

Again, I am much more excited about the benefits afforded by OLED at a size of 77" versus HDR. That will be an afterthought after such an upgrade. If you're going to "settle" for a more modest 65", I suppose I can understand heeding the call of upgraditis, but that is not particularly weighing my decision right now (price is everything!).

[raygendreau]

Originally Posted by nirvanayoda

Interesting -- thanks for the research. The real question, then, is NOT "are the panels technically capable of HDR", rather the question is whether or not LG will enable the panels to decode HDR metadata to actually display it? Hopefully Robert will confirm that they are able to.

There is no technical reason why they couldn't. The sooner they confirm that they will, the less it will affect sales of current generation product.

According to the Dolby Vision White Paper, the Dolby mapping decoder can be implemented via silicon or software. See page 8 (playback):

http://www.dolby.com/us/en/technolog...hite-paper.pdf

I suppose there could be some issue regarding DV licensing costs for the decoders.

[vinnie97]

For it to be implemented in software, they would need sufficient reserve processing power/memory to pull it off. I guess you'd want to make sure you get the model with the deca-core processor if HDR futureproofing is high up your list (I have yet to hear from anyone who has seen a demonstration of an HDR implementation such that they are excited to have it incorporated in their own future display; it reeks of gimmickry, IMO, and is just another way to extend the useful life of LCD against more formidable competition).

[raygendreau]

Originally Posted by vinnie97

For it to be implemented in software, they would need sufficient reserve processing power/memory to pull it off. I guess you'd want to make sure you get the model with the deca-core processor if HDR futureproofing is high up your list (I have yet to hear from anyone who has seen a demonstration of an HDR implementation such that they are excited to have it incorporated in their own future display; it reeks of gimmickry, IMO, and is just another way to extend the useful life of LCD against more formidable competition).

HDR was a highlight at 2015 CES. There were several articles about Life of Pi, Exodus, Spiderman and other HDR demoes on both OLED and LCD UHD displays. This is an excellent interview that discusses, in part, how the Spiderman HDR demo content was created, It also provides some insight about the current discussion within the UHD Alliance about defining UHD, HDR, WCG, from the perspective of the content provider

Note that they use a pro OLED monitor. Check out the chart showing where the best LCD and CRT displays bottom out on black level compared to the straight line to zero for the OLED.

https://pro.sony.com/bbsccms/assets/..._explained.pdf

[vinnie97]

Originally Posted by raygendreau

HDR was a highlight at 2015 CES.

A highlight according to the organizers, sure. I only care about the opinions of well informed attendees and not those with a vested interest in trying to sell me on the latest whiz bang feature.

[Robert Zohn]

Just moved our LG EG9600 2015 4K OLED from our home to the store showroom. Sad to see it leave our home, but we need to make room for its big brother, the 65EG9600.

The increased brightness and new anti-glare/ambient light filter is a nice upgrade. This is truly a gorgeous TV.

Here's some photos of it in our showroom:











Enjoy!

-Robert

[ryanmcv]

Originally Posted by Robert Zohn

Just moved our LG EG9600 2015 4K OLED from our home to the store showroom. Sad to see it leave our home, but we need to make room for its big brother, the 65EG9600.

The increased brightness and new anti-glare/ambient light filter is a nice upgrade. This is truly a gorgeous TV.

Here's some photos of it in our showroom:

[Show spoiler]

Enjoy!

-Robert

Beautiful! My EC9300 seems so... obsolete now. Haha. What's the supply situation for EG9600 models? Looks like a few 55-inch models are out in the wild. Still late March/early April for wider availability?

[JimShaw]

For me, it will be the 65EF9500


m

[raygendreau]

Originally Posted by nirvanayoda

For what it's worth, tonight I asked the Flatpanelshd guy a question in the comments section of the January 22 report if his information about the firmware updates for the 2015 EF/EG panels has changed after HdtvTest reported that no such firmware update was possible. He said that it hasn't. Here is his exact reply:

"I haven't read their report, but our information came from people at LG involved with the actual HDR work. We haven't received any updates regarding this.

But just to be clear; the TVs will launch without HDR capabilities. The HDR standards are not yet in place. The software update later this year will add it. That's what LG told us."

Hopefully Robert will get confirmation from LG soon and put this issue to rest.

When there is an answer, these are the people that will provide it.

http://lgdnewsroom.com/products-solu..._4324-1024x683

http://lgdnewsroom.com/products-solutions/tv/5614

Questions that need to be asked:

1. What 2014 and 2015 models can be considered HDR "ready".

2. What is the expected life for 800 nit panels?

3. How much will the inclusion of DV or other HDR decoder increase Display pricing?

[Robert Zohn]

Originally Posted by ryanmcv

Beautiful! My EC9300 seems so... obsolete now. Haha. What's the supply situation for EG9600 models? Looks like a few 55-inch models are out in the wild. Still late March/early April for wider availability?

Supply is very constrained at this time. From what I'm told a handful of authorized LG dealers are being selected with the first allocations.

-Robert

Originally Posted by raygendreau

When there is an answer, these are the people that will provide it.

http://lgdnewsroom.com/products-solu..._4324-1024x683

http://lgdnewsroom.com/products-solutions/tv/5614

Questions that need to be asked:

1. What 2014 and 2015 models can be considered HDR "ready".

2. What is the expected life for 800 nit panels?

3. How much will the inclusion of DV or other HDR decoder increase Display pricing?

From what I'm told only 2015 models can be upgraded to HDR and that once the standards are established the firmware will be upgraded to include the HDR decoding. I don't expect any cost for this as it should be a firmware update only.

I don't expect the increased luminance will effect the panel life. In fact, the 55EG9600s we just received have larger power supplies. One possible additional benefit is I don't see the ABL kicking in so the larger power supply may have solved that issue.

It's fun and exciting to see a/v technologies advancing so beautifully with enhancements that make their entertainment experiences more engaging.

Enjoy!

-Robert