News: displays and their technologies

[Penton-Man]

Originally Posted by Geoff D

I wouldn't trust the common man and woman to rate a ViewMaster shootout, never mind a TV shootout. Plonk a TV in front of them, set it to Vivid mode and watch the magic happen.

Perhaps poor choice of words on my part. Let me try to alleviate the confusion. I think that Robert’s local past and present “common man and woman” clientele are more sophisticated enough in determining picture quality than the sector of the population to which you are referring. And motivated at that, given some of them have travelled from the comfort of their homes to attend extensively long shootouts in the past in order to become well informed as to the nuances of TVs.

[Geoff D]

Originally Posted by Penton-Man

Perhaps poor choice of words on my part. Let me try to alleviate the confusion. I think that Robert’s local past and present “common man and woman” clientele are more sophisticated enough in determining picture quality than the sector of the population to which you are referring. And motivated at that, given some of them have travelled from the comfort of their homes to attend extensively long shootouts in the past in order to become well informed as to the nuances of TVs.

I get the feeling that Robert's clientele is mostly the well-heeled type who have even less idea about what it is they're looking at than the "common" person. Throw money at it, make sure it's got loads of technical buzzwords = job done.

[Penton-Man]

Originally Posted by Geoff D

I get the feeling that Robert's clientele is mostly the well-heeled type who have even less idea about what it is they're looking at than the "common" person. Throw money at it, make sure it's got loads of technical buzzwords = job done.

First of all I respect the success of anyone who is “well-heeled” if they’re self-made. Secondly, of what I’ve listened to during the past shootouts, I’ve found Robert’s local clientele’s questions in the Q&A periods after the formal presentations to invalidate your feelings. Even given their deep pockets, furthermore I also get the feeling that they are not the type who upgrade for marginal differences in quality, they're WAY too busy with other things in life. So, they fit the profile for being a more discerning consumer than the several people you are aware of on AVF.

[Geoff D]

I do realise that people with loadsmoney literally have better things to do than have even a passing interest in the nuts and bolts of all this, unless they were actually involved with this industry at whatever point of coursh. They're too busy being successful to care and yay them, but I still wouldn't trust their opinion on whatever TV.

Maybe rich Americans are different than rich Britishers, I don't know, but in the decade+ that I sold TVs the amount of A/V knowledge that someone lacked was directly proportionate to the size of their wad. I mean, even the "common" person has better things to do than nerd up, but there was a special kind of "I don't care what it is, just give me the latest and most expensive one" attitude to the affluent ones. One Boxing Day I sold a TV that cost five grand to some fella who wandered in first thing after we opened, that set us up pretty well that day!

[Robert Zohn]

Our customer base is made up of two categories of buyers who buy the premium TVs and audio equipment. We sell Nationwide to audio/video enthusiast and locally in our wealthy community who enjoy buying luxury items to get the best entrainment in their homes.

At our annual TV Shootout Evaluation event we ask the 70+ attendees to vote and we publish their ballot totals, but for our awarding the "King of TV" we use the votes of "Panel of Experts" who are industry professionals made up of Hollywood colorists, Hollywood film finishers, video scientists and a few professional TV reviewers.

The attendees are all very serious video enthusiast and they sit through the 6+ hours of this very technical presentation event enjoying every moment. Our presenters have been the most highly respected video experts available. Joe Kane and Joel Silver are frequent presenters and with them we have many of the top professional calibrators presenting.

Every premium TV manufacturer sends their top engineers and senior product management to our TV Shootout.

[Penton-Man]

Originally Posted by Robert Zohn

Our customer base is made up of two categories of buyers who buy the premium TVs and audio equipment. We sell Nationwide to audio/video enthusiast and locally in our wealthy community who enjoy buying luxury items to get the best entrainment in their homes.

At our annual TV Shootout Evaluation event we ask the 70+ attendees to vote and we publish their ballot totals, but for our awarding the "King of TV" we use the votes of "Panel of Experts" who are industry professionals made up of Hollywood colorists, Hollywood film finishers, video scientists and a few professional TV reviewers.

The attendees are all very serious video enthusiast and they sit through the 6+ hours of this very technical presentation event enjoying every moment. Our presenters have been the most highly respected video experts available. Joe Kane and Joel Silver are frequent presenters and with them we have many of the top professional calibrators presenting.

Every premium TV manufacturer sends their top engineers and senior product management to our TV Shootout.

Yeah Robert, we know all that ^, plus you mentioned Kane and Silver but you left out the Ph.D. with the long beard. Meanwhile, I think many here would be satisfied with only 10 or so of your locals who’ve attended past shootouts to settle the issue of whether ‘8K is stupid’ or ‘8K is a money grab’ with this simple get-together as outlined - https://forum.blu-ray.com/showthread...e#post18633457

Otherwise, this whole 8K vs. 4K TV thing which is present on more than one thread here and likely on other gadget forums, results in endless debate fodder. Also, the other thing is that ‘expert’ scoring is a double-edge sword, for if it takes recruited ‘experts’ to tell a typical AV forum consumer, be it here, AVF or AVS which TV is better or not, then the improvement really can’t be that dramatic, can it? I think many serious, but cost-conscious consumers, aren’t interested in decimal point differences between an 80 inch 8K vs 4K TV but rather something more on the order of - if the 8K jobs knock your socks off, or at least knock them down to our forefoots.

[Lee A Stewart]

4K brought "better pixels" rather than just "more pixels." So what does 8K bring? More pixels.

Have people changed their living room so they can take advantage of the resolution increase 4K has over HD? No - I am not talking about the videophiles that populate this and other sites. I am talking about the millions of "regular" people. Their old HDTV TV was 9 feet from the couch. Wanna bet the new 4K TV is hanging in the same place?

I don't know if 8K TVs without 8K content is "stupid." But personally I would have a hard time justifying one until the industry embraces 8K content like it has 4K content. Which frankly isn't much. HD is still the dominant format for home video.

[Robert Zohn]

Love Larry Weber, the father of plasma TV.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?t=690&...ature=youtu.be

[Penton-Man]

moonlighting here? -

ZZ Top Sharp Dressed Man, Live Texas - YouTube

c’mon Robert, herd a few experienced-in-TV-watching locals in for an impromptu 8K vs 4K side-by-side analysis and post it on the tube

[Jay Mammoth]

Originally Posted by Robert Zohn

Our customer base is made up of two categories of buyers who buy the premium TVs and audio equipment. We sell Nationwide to audio/video enthusiast and locally in our wealthy community who enjoy buying luxury items to get the best entrainment in their homes.

At our annual TV Shootout Evaluation event we ask the 70+ attendees to vote and we publish their ballot totals, but for our awarding the "King of TV" we use the votes of "Panel of Experts" who are industry professionals made up of Hollywood colorists, Hollywood film finishers, video scientists and a few professional TV reviewers.

The attendees are all very serious video enthusiast and they sit through the 6+ hours of this very technical presentation event enjoying every moment. Our presenters have been the most highly respected video experts available. Joe Kane and Joel Silver are frequent presenters and with them we have many of the top professional calibrators presenting.

Every premium TV manufacturer sends their top engineers and senior product management to our TV Shootout.

Love the shootouts at VE, some people just hate seeing OLED win every year. Lol

[DDH]

Today's Best OLED TV Technologies with Bob O'Brien of DSCC
Industry Insider discloses the best improvements to OLED TVs this year. Bob O'Brien explains why OLED TVs are better this year plus why he prefers MinLED TVs to OLED!

Today's Best OLED TV Technologies with Bob O'Brien of DSCC - YouTube

[DDH]

Showcase of the latest technologies (#microLED, leap #Oled, ...) at CES commented by Reiji Asakura




https://av.watch.impress.co.jp/docs/...a/1306500.html

A big leap in OLED

Asakura: Mini LED is an idea that aims to improve the image quality of liquid crystal by putting in a lot of material, and local dimming is a relatively long-standing technology in the first place. Mini LEDs have improved the accuracy, but with local dimming, no matter how hard you try, you cannot subdivide to the same pixel unit as OLED. So OLED made a big leap this time. Here is my special information!

One of the breakthroughs in OLED TVs was that Panasonic customized the heat dissipation plate to increase current and efficiency from around the year before last. Basically, OLED is excellent in black expression, but white tends to grow weakly. On the other hand, this time, white has a lot of power. The new panel will be 1.5 times brighter, probably up to 1,500 nits.

LG Display, which we are collaborating with, is also making a new type of proper heat dissipation plate with improved efficiency, and Panasonic's new model "JZ2000" series also says "changed from the structure of the heat dissipation plate", so maybe this It may be using a proper heat dissipation plate.


――Don't bother to develop the custom heat dissipation plate in-house this time, and make it a manufacturer's standard high model?


Asakura: There is a possibility. At the same time, improving the performance of general-purpose models can be said to mean that LG Display has steered in that direction. Of course, this also increases the luminous efficiency of LG Electronics' OLED TVs.

Another point is the brightness improvement effect of the new material. We have developed a new material with high luminous efficiency, optimized the arrangement of layers, and improved the brightness of the entire system by 53%. What this means is how far the D range in the HDR era can be extended. How far can the white gradation be reproduced in strong light without crushing it? That is now being emphasized, and this point was a specialty of liquid crystals, which makes it easy to strengthen the backlight. In addition, this is the same for micro LEDs, but more on that later.

For that reason, Sony's OLED model, which has been the absolute champion in recent years even for professional-use Masmoni, has begun to favor the LCD model that emphasizes brightness. Especially in studio use, it is said that "there is no real feeling without brightness", so it is very important to support high brightness in the field of video production. At the same time, the important point is how to increase the brightness and reproduce the white gradation without crushing it even in the playback display. LG Display's OLED has responded to these demands with a new panel assembly.

The rest of the article is just as interesting to read.

[Auditor55]

Originally Posted by Lee A Stewart

4K brought "better pixels" rather than just "more pixels." So what does 8K bring? More pixels.

Have people changed their living room so they can take advantage of the resolution increase 4K has over HD? No - I am not talking about the videophiles that populate this and other sites. I am talking about the millions of "regular" people. Their old HDTV TV was 9 feet from the couch. Wanna bet the new 4K TV is hanging in the same place?

I don't know if 8K TVs without 8K content is "stupid." But personally I would have a hard time justifying one until the industry embraces 8K content like it has 4K content. Which frankly isn't much. HD is still the dominant format for home video.

That's a lot of B.S.

Watch what Joe Kane says here, please move to about the 3.25-minute mark of the video.

Home Theater Geeks 180: Ultimate Ultra High Definition - YouTube

Now Joe Kane, is respected and knowledgeable about display technology. He's not one of those Youtube influencers that many of you admire and think are experts.

[Auditor55]

Originally Posted by Penton-Man

Yeah Robert, we know all that ^, plus you mentioned Kane and Silver but you left out the Ph.D. with the long beard. Meanwhile, I think many here would be satisfied with only 10 or so of your locals who’ve attended past shootouts to settle the issue of whether ‘8K is stupid’ or ‘8K is a money grab’ with this simple get-together as outlined - https://forum.blu-ray.com/showthread...e#post18633457

Otherwise, this whole 8K vs. 4K TV thing which is present on more than one thread here and likely on other gadget forums, results in endless debate fodder. Also, the other thing is that ‘expert’ scoring is a double-edge sword, for if it takes recruited ‘experts’ to tell a typical AV forum consumer, be it here, AVF or AVS which TV is better or not, then the improvement really can’t be that dramatic, can it? I think many serious, but cost-conscious consumers, aren’t interested in decimal point differences between an 80 inch 8K vs 4K TV but rather something more on the order of - if the 8K jobs knock your socks off, or at least knock them down to our forefoots.

I don't need a shootout to tell me 8K is stupid because my main reason for saying that is due to a lack of content. For example, wherein existence is there any such thing as an 8K UHD player or 8K UHD blu ray disc. This was an issue for 4K, but 4K disc players and 4K disc did manage to make it to the market, still minuscule way, nevertheless they did come.

[Penton-Man]

Originally Posted by Auditor55

Now Joe Kane, is respected and knowledgeable about display technology. He's not one of those Youtube influencers that many of you admire and think are experts.

In the past Joe has made some pretty blatant errors with an s both on Home Theater Geeks interviews and during presentations at Value Electronics shootouts as well as in other communications which have been well documented in detail on this forum. I don’t have time to find and list them all again, but they’re there if one uses search word Joe.

[Penton-Man]

Originally Posted by Auditor55

I don't need a shootout to tell me 8K is stupid because my main reason for saying that is due to a lack of content. For example, wherein existence is there any such thing as an 8K UHD player or 8K UHD blu ray disc. This was an issue for 4K, but 4K disc players and 4K disc did manage to make it to the market, still minuscule way, nevertheless they did come.

Some proponents of 8K tvs claim that it is misguided to exclusively equate ‘8K resolution’ to video technology without considering other factors. It’s not like a 1:1 linear relationship as with reading a Snellen chart on the wall. For example, see if you can read the 20/20 or 20/15 line on the screen in your optometrist’s or ophthalmologist’s office if the tech detrimentally tweaks the settings on the projector.

It’s my understanding that proponents of *the most advanced televisions on or soon to enter the market* which are branded as ‘8K’ tvs, include processing that leverages the more pixels of 8K into better pixels during the upresing of non-8K sources. Ergo, let’s prove it or refute it with a test involving the 2021 models rather than posting conjecture. Let’s have an inaugural Value Electronics 8K vs 4K TV Case Study. Aren’t there a handful of New Yorkers here on this forum and AVS, who are not “well heeled” and within reasonable driving distance of Robert’s showroom who could serve as non-naïve participants in such a study….masked up of course, optimally, double masked.

[Geoff D]

Originally Posted by Penton-Man

Yeah Robert, we know all that ^, plus you mentioned Kane and Silver but you left out the Ph.D. with the long beard. Meanwhile, I think many here would be satisfied with only 10 or so of your locals who’ve attended past shootouts to settle the issue of whether ‘8K is stupid’ or ‘8K is a money grab’ with this simple get-together as outlined - https://forum.blu-ray.com/showthread...e#post18633457

Otherwise, this whole 8K vs. 4K TV thing which is present on more than one thread here and likely on other gadget forums, results in endless debate fodder. Also, the other thing is that ‘expert’ scoring is a double-edge sword, for if it takes recruited ‘experts’ to tell a typical AV forum consumer, be it here, AVF or AVS which TV is better or not, then the improvement really can’t be that dramatic, can it? I think many serious, but cost-conscious consumers, aren’t interested in decimal point differences between an 80 inch 8K vs 4K TV but rather something more on the order of - if the 8K jobs knock your socks off, or at least knock them down to our forefoots.

You know what's funny about that? People say the same thing about my UHD reviews, that if it needs an "expert" peeping every pixel to determine something's worth then what does it matter to people who'd never even dream of scrutinising content like that? They'd never notice the difference, so if an 8K TV vs a 4K TV would have to result in the kind of gaping discrepancies that even the most technically illiterate could appreciate without prompting then I find it hard to believe that such a gulf exists.... assuming that the playing field is level.

So if you took the same processing engine, same screen technology, same size, same viewing distance, and fed each one the same 4K content, the only difference being the resolution of the screens, I think 99.9% of people would not be able to tell the difference, and even then only on, say, 75" screens and above would the 0.01% be able to discern it. Alas, the playing field is not level as we know, with the manufacturers deciding to keep the even-specialer sauce for their 8K models so in that respect I think an 8K v 4K 'shootout' is worthless, no matter how eminent or well-travelled the audience might be.

We can only compare what's available, true, and if it's not 'like for like' then that's just how it's got to be. But I don't pay attention to 'shootouts' in general as their results are guided just as much by the prevailing views of the cognoscenti in attendance than the actual day to day performance of these sets.

[Penton-Man]

Originally Posted by Geoff D

So if you took the same processing engine, same screen technology, same size, same viewing distance, and fed each one the same 4K content, the only difference being the resolution of the screens, I think 99.9% of people would not be able to tell the difference, and even then only on, say, 75" screens and above would the 0.01% be able to discern it.

Likely true Geoff and Zink’s limited scope study was tailored to that methodology as I recall and showed that most can’t tell the diff. The conclusion which was then extrapolated by many into ‘8K tvs are stupid’ or a waste of money, or whatever.

Originally Posted by Geoff D

Alas, the playing field is not level as we know, with the manufacturers deciding to keep the even-specialer sauce for their 8K models

Have they though, and to what degree has it proved beneficial to image quality?
In the proposed case study hosted by Value Electronics - - Will the top-of-the-line big TV of x resolution clearly outperform the same size of y resolution to a point where reasonably experienced local past attendees of Robert’s formal shootouts can tell the difference, in that it’s not incremental, but meaningful toward purchase. Not revolutionary in difference like SD -> HD but more on the order of ‘damn that is better’. During a slit lamp examination, general ophthalmologists (not specialized) don’t stare at one’s cornea or retina for minutes, but rather scan it quickly and get a very good impression as to what’s going on. Same for cornea or retina specialists. They’re even quicker.

Not rocket science here or proving the science of resolution differences. We’re talking practical information as to the buying of a TV, this year. Serious potential buyers would want to know without all the theoretical overthinking you often see on AV forums by people who don’t or were never in the market to buy a TV anyway this year or spin control by salesmen/women.

Simply, does A tv look better than B in Robert’s showroom by guys the likes of which post in these threads. I see Jay is from Buffalo so he’s too far away. Spare Change ?sp is too connected to Robert to serve as a participant but how ‘bout all of the local NYC guys who come out of the woodwork here and on AVS whenever Robert has an annual shootout? They could serve as participants and maybe given a small stipend to cover gas or train expenses for encouragement if they didn’t care to volunteer outright for the glory of it all.

[Staying Salty]

Originally Posted by Geoff D

...Alas, the playing field is not level as we know, with the manufacturers deciding to keep the even-specialer sauce for their 8K models...

https://www.sony.com/electronics/tel...tions#features

Seems that Sony is ladling a lot of that even-specialer sauce into this years A90J 4K display.

[Robert Zohn]

Correct, ^^ Sony pulled out all of the stops to make the new 2021 A90J Master Series OLED TV the very best it could be. Although I must also say the A80J OLED series and the flagship Z9J 8K are great TVs too.

Also happy to see Sony bring the new flagship XR video processor to the X95J, X90J LCD/LED series and the X1 processor for the X85J and X80J make these aggressively priced 4K HDR TVs very attractive to a wider audience.

Sony listens and positively reacts to their key dealers and the consumers.