3D/2D Displays that support 3D & 2D & 24p at multiplies of the original frame rate

[rockissponge]

I can’t believe that it’s October 2007, and we’ve yet to see a 1080p/24hz Panasonic Plasma screen.

*taps foot impatiently on floor*

Fantastic thread though, thanks. I’ll be in the shops in a flash once I see a Panasonic screen listed on the fist page!

[HDTV1080P]

Originally Posted by rockissponge

I can’t believe that it’s October 2007, and we’ve yet to see a 1080p/24hz Panasonic Plasma screen.

*taps foot impatiently on floor*

Fantastic thread though, thanks. I’ll be in the shops in a flash once I see a Panasonic screen listed on the fist page!

Rumor is toward the end of 2008 Panasonic might have a Plasma that supports 1080P/24 with correct refresh rates. Until one appears on the market or announced it is just a rumor. All their current Plasma displays have a 1080P/60 input only (no 1080P/24 input).

[Go Blue]

HDTV1080P, If my set accepts a 1080p/24 signal, but then converts it to 1080p/60, should I have the PS3 option to force 24fps turned on or off? If it is set to auto, it goes to 60.

[geoperknis]

Originally Posted by Electric_Haggis

Positive quote on the new firmware 2.5
“As an added bonus, the HD-A20 will upconvert standard definition DVDs to 1080p/24, with all the motion benefits that come from eliminating the 3/2 pulldown present in film-based material at 1080p/60 and 1080i/30. The smoothing was particularly noticeable in the opening scenes of Star Trek: Insurrection, as the camera pans across the haystacks and the village. To date, no Blu-ray players that we know of will do this.”


Brilliant!!!
I've been wondering how long it'd be before an upscaling player did 24p with regular DVD.

I don't see how this is any better than upscaling/upconversion in your television set. It all depends on how good the 3:2 -> 2:3 reverse telecine codec is in either your display or in the HD-A20. Which ever does the better job of motion prediction and de-interlacing will provide a better image. It is still a process subject to judder defects if not done "perfectly".

[CONQUERERMTM]

...and hence it's always better to bypass any 3:2 pulldown process with a display and player 1080p/24fps-capable.........

[gand41f]

OK, got an official confirmation from a Sony Pictures insider:

https://forum.blu-ray.com/showpost.p...postcount=4370

Originally Posted by paidgeek

The new XBR sets will not only display 24p as 5:5, but they will also take 60i, convert it to 24p, then display it at 120hz 5:5. The downside of the latter is that it takes a few frames to lock on the cadence of the signal, so it is better to feed 24p if possible. Be sure to check out the "theatre" viewing mode as well. SPE helped out with that and it works well. It is designed to emulate the picture on a professional display.

So looks like the Sony XBR4/5 LCDs are here to stay.

Thanks HDTV1080P and others!

enjoy
gandalf

[HDTV1080P]

Originally Posted by schultz

HDTV1080P, If my set accepts a 1080p/24 signal, but then converts it to 1080p/60, should I have the PS3 option to force 24fps turned on or off? If it is set to auto, it goes to 60.

Since the Samsung you own displays everything at 60HZ either the Samsung or the PS3 needs to convert 24fps to 60fps. The auto function on the PS3 works most the time to auto detect if the display accepts 1080P/24. Still the auto detect mode on the PS3 does not work with some brands and models of displays. When auto is selected on a US model PS3 it will try and output a 1080P/24 signal first when playing a BLU-RAY movie. If the display is not 1080P/24 capable or there are incompatibility issues with auto detection the PS3 will then switch to 60HZ mode. When off is selected on the PS3 for 1080P/24 the PS3 will always output 60HZ on the US model and 50HZ on some international models. The on option for 1080P/24 mode on the PS3 will always output 24fps when playing a BLU-RAY movie recorded at 1080P/24. Almost 100% of BLU-RAY movies are native 1080P/24 on the disc. Now if one plays any DVD or most BLU-RAY PS3 game the PS3 will output 60fps even in the on mode since the source material is 60HZ..
Since 1080P/24 material on the Samsungl is being converted to 60HZ you will not see any major improvements between 1080P/24 and 1080P/60. In fact you might get a better picture quality placing your PS3 on the off mode for 1080P/24 and let the PS3 output all BLU-RAY’s at 1080P/60. Either your Samsung DLP or Sony PS3 will do a better job of converting 1080P/24 material to 60fps. You can experiment to see which setting gives you a better picture quality. If you see a better picture quality when the Sony PS3 is set to on for 1080P/24 that means the Samsung has a better 3:2 pulldown circuitry then what is in the PS3. Now if you set the PS3 1080P/24 setting to off and let the PS3 do the 3:2 pulldown to 60HZ and the picture is better, then that means the Sony PS3 has better quality circuitry when converting 24fps to 60fps.

[HDTV1080P]

Originally Posted by gand41f

OK, got an official confirmation from a Sony Pictures insider:

https://forum.blu-ray.com/showpost.p...postcount=4370


So looks like the Sony XBR4/5 LCDs are here to stay.

Thanks HDTV1080P and others!

enjoy
gandalf

Thanks for the info from the Sony insider gand41f. Sometimes finding information on displays can be very difficult. I also think the Sony’s on the list are hear to stay. We have verification form the Ultimate AV magazine, Perfect Vision magazine, and now a Sony insider that the sets do a correct 5:5 pulldown (When motion Enhancer is turned off). The Sony’s are the very first display on the market that does a 5:5 pulldown (120HZ). In theory most of the time the higher the multiplies of the original frame the less judder will be experienced. I would like to see Plasma screens have a 120HZ refresh rate one day. Perhaps in a few years or several years down the road there will be 240HZ displays that do a 10:10 pulldown. Of course many 48HZ displays do an excellent job at reducing the judder. It would be interesting for someone to do a professional review comparing a 48HZ display to a 120HZ to see which does a better job at judder reduction. In theory most of the time the 120HZ should be better. When it comes to flat panels I prefer the quality of the Pioneer Plasma’s with great black levels and excellent color depth. 35mm and 70mm film is refreshed at 48HZ and 72HZ so as long as one has a display that does 48HZ or 72HZ they will match the quality of film. In theory 96HZ and 120HZ on a high-end front projector would reduce the judder even more then what is shown in the average movie theater.

[gand41f]

Originally Posted by HDTV1080P

Thanks for the info from the Sony insider gand41f. Sometimes finding information on displays can be very difficult. I also think the Sony’s on the list are hear to stay. We have verification form the Ultimate AV magazine, Perfect Vision magazine, and now a Sony insider that the sets do a correct 5:5 pulldown (When motion Enhancer is turned off). The Sony’s are the very first display on the market that does a 5:5 pulldown (120HZ). In theory most of the time the higher the multiplies of the original frame the less judder will be experienced. I would like to see Plasma screens have a 120HZ refresh rate one day. Perhaps in a few years or several years down the road there will be 240HZ displays that do a 10:10 pulldown. Of course many 48HZ displays do an excellent job at reducing the judder. It would be interesting for someone to do a professional review comparing a 48HZ display to a 120HZ to see which does a better job at judder reduction. In theory most of the time the 120HZ should be better. When it comes to flat panels I prefer the quality of the Pioneer Plasma’s with great black levels and excellent color depth. 35mm and 70mm film is refreshed at 48HZ and 72HZ so as long as one has a display that does 48HZ or 72HZ they will match the quality of film. In theory 96HZ and 120HZ on a high-end front projector would reduce the judder even more then what is shown in the average movie theater.

Actually I prefer to call what you mention here "flicker". Flicker is caused by the refresh rate being too low for display devices that do not hold a static image. Reducing flicker is the reason why films are shown at 48Hz, not 24Hz, in movie theaters. Human eyes do not retain the image on the retina close enough to 24Hz and people will see the screen go dark between frames. Flashing the same frame twice solved the problem, at least to the point where people stopped complaining.

As far as I understand, LCDs are "sample and hold" type devices that does not change the image at all between refreshes, so I don't think there is any visible difference between 24Hz and 240Hz regardless how good your eyesight is. If you feed a 24Hz input into a 240Hz LCD, the image will simply not change at all for 10 cycles of the internal clock.

With CRTs, the image does get weaker over time between refreshes so 240Hz will be much smoother than 24Hz. I don't know where is the point of diminishing return where an average or above-average eyesight person can no longer see a difference, but I suspect it's somewhere between 72Hz and 100Hz (this is from my own experience staring at computer screens for many years ).

enjoy
gandalf

[HDTV1080P]

Here is an excellent review on the Pioneer KURO PDP-6010FD.
http://ultimateavmag.com/flatpaneldisplays/1007piok60/index.html

The 120HZ refresh on the Sony was able to smooth motion better then the 72HZ Pioneer. Of course the Pioneer had much better black levels and response time then the Sony LCD. Maybe future Plasma’s will offer 120HZ one day.
Quote
“The Pioneer's 72Hz operation (always on with 1080p/24 program material) eliminates 3:2 pulldown where present and further smoothes motion. Yes, it does work, but the result is often subtle. At its best the result was not nearly as dramatic as the motion smoothing features at 120Hz with the Sony KDL-46XBR4.”

Positives

Quote
“Pioneer has long been a leader in plasma display technology. Over the past few generations its sets have arguably produced some of the best images in the flat panel business. Whether or not the potential competition from the (apparently) now stillborn SED technology, which promised astonishingly deep blacks, gave Pioneer an added incentive to achieve new and previously unattainable depths in that important aspect of display design we can't know for certain. But what we can know for certain is that Pioneer has set a new standard its new KURO sets.”

Quote
“This Pioneer has the deepest blacks and shadow detail I've tested, apart from two or three of the best CRT front projectors ever made.”

Quote
“One of the best tests I've ever seen for this came to me recently by way of a new Pioneer test disc. I referred to it previously in my review of the Pioneer PDP-5080HD 50" plasma. With the larger screen and higher resolution of the PDP-6010FD it's even more striking. It shows a photographer working in his studio. Everything in the studio is in varying shades of dark gray or black, including the photographer's black leather clothes. The details are incredible, and all the more amazing because of their dark, monotone nature. Sure, Pioneer would not have put such a scene on a demo disc without knowing that the new sets would excel with it. But competing displays struggle with this image, capturing its details only by lightening the scene too much, rendering everything in mid-gray shades rather than black and dark gray.
The Pioneer exceeds in other areas as well, though none of them are as dramatic as its state-of-the-art black level and contrast. “

Negatives
The only real negative about plasmas is possible burn in problems if the set is abused.

Quote
“A Few Words on Burn-In
Pioneer mentions this issue in the owner's manual, and also includes a full-page manual addendum on the subject.
It's important to distinguish between image retention and permanent burn-in. The former (which is sometimes referred to as "after-image") fades over time—slower in some sets than others, but it's ultimately harmless. Pioneer even provides one additional feature in the set to help erase it if it doesn't fade quickly on its own. It's called Video Pattern, and consists of a bright, vertical white bar, which cycles across the screen from left to right against a black background until you shut it off.
Permanent burn-in cannot be erased and will continue as a ghostly shadow overlaying any image being viewed on the screen. Depending on its severity, it may always be visible or masked most of the time by the program material you're watching. It's the avoidance of this sort of burn-in we're addressing here.
The bottom line here is that yes, burn-in (both temporary and permanent) can still be an issue with plasmas. But if you exercise reasonable care you should be able to avoid the permanent variety.
The most important precaution is to use the full screen as much as possible for the first 100 hours or so, when the plasma's phosphors are fresh and most vulnerable. Avoid high settings of the Contrast control and, in particular, avoid the Dynamic mode (both of which are good ideas if you want the best image quality anyway!).
After that 100 hour break-in period, avoid long stretches of watching images that fill only part of the screen. This includes 4:3 programming (with constant brightness gray bars at the sides of the image), and ultra widescreen (scope, i.e. 2.35:1 or similar) films with black bars at the top and bottom. But you don't need to be paranoid about spending a few hours watching such programming; I'd just avoid a constant barrage of either 2.35:1 or 4:3 material. If you watch the Shopping Channel 18 hours a day, a plasma is probably not your best choice in a new set—unless you don't mind stretching it to fill the screen!
You should, however, be careful of hours spent playing video games on a plasma. While such games often have a lot of motion, they also have large areas that don't change much during the game, such as frames, titles, and scoreboards. For games, there is a specially designed mode called Game AV, but you also might want to keep the |contrast level down and the Orbiter feature On.
Sports coverage on television has also developed a nasty habit of keeping a bright score bug or bar on the screen constantly. That's another good reason to avoid using bright modes like Dynamic, which might be tempting for this kind of programming since it's often watched in bright room lighting during the day. But I never felt the need for anything brighter than Standard mode on the Pioneer.
My experience with the new Pioneers, however, suggests that they are less prone to burn-in than some other plasmas, particularly bargain brands. But I did not try to test the PDP-6010FD to its limits to prove or disprove this subjective impression!”



P.S.

I hope to see a 60 inch Pioneer Elite review soon which has even deeper blacks.

Quote
“The Elite sets offer a few additional features (including ISF calibration modes) and, according to Pioneer, also use a slightly darker filter for even deeper blacks.”

[HDTV1080P]

The amazing low prices on true 1080P/24 displays that display at multiplies of the original frame

Prices have really dropped on 1080P displays that display images at multiplies of the original frame rate. Currently the cheapest display on the market that displays 1080P/24 at multiplies of the original frame goes to the Sony KDS-50A3000 which can be purchased for under $1600. This 120HZ rear projector display has a 2.5ms response time and has a better picture quality then LCD and some Plasma’s but not as good as a front projector. With prices under $1600 for a true 1080P/24 display there is no reason why not to jump on board. SXRD rear projectors use to cost $13,000 3 years ago with no 1080P/24 input. With a list price of $1,799.99 and a street price under $1600 this is a deal.
http://www.sonystyle.com/webapp/wcs/stores/servlet/ProductDisplay?catalogId=10551&storeId=10151&langI d=-1&productId=8198552921665153953

http://www.pricerunner.com/pl/2-984830/TVs/Sony-Bravia-KDS-50A3000-Compare-Prices?q=kds-50a3000

For around $3,000 last years model of the Sony VPL-VW50 can be purchased for a street price of under $3100 (list price $3,499.99). Front projectors have the best image quality of any display when placed in a dedicated dark home theater room. 3 years ago Sony SXRD front projectors cost $33,000 for one that had a 1080P/60 input and with no 1080P/24 support. $3,100 is a real deal for a projector that refreshes at 96HZ.
http://www.sonystyle.com/webapp/wcs/stores/servlet/ProductDisplay?catalogId=10551&storeId=10151&langI d=-1&productId=11040215

http://www.pricerunner.com/pl/98-742656/Projectors/Sony-VPL-VW50-Compare-Prices?other_hits=198%3Avpl-vw50%3B%3B%3B&q=vpl-vw50

For those that like 120HZ 1080P/24 LCD flat panels with 5:5 pulldown the Sony KDL-40XBR4 can be purchased for around $2,016 from some discount mail order companies.

http://www.sonystyle.com/webapp/wcs/stores/servlet/ProductDisplay?catalogId=10551&storeId=10151&langI d=-1&productId=8198552921665116632

http://www.pricerunner.com/pl/2-971933/TVs/Sony-KDL-40XBR4-Compare-Prices?q=kdl-40xbr4

The amazing 72HZ Pioneer PDP-5010FD can be purchased for under $3,000 from discount mail order companies. The black levels on this Pioneer Plasma are better then most Front Projectors on the market.
http://www.pricerunner.com/pl/2-991611/TVs/Pioneer-PDP-5010FD-Compare-Prices?q=pdp-5010fd

[gand41f]

I thought we're not supposed to post non-MSRP prices?

Anyway, thanks for the list. I didn't realize front projectors are that cheap. (If you can call $3k+ cheap, that is.) When I finally get around to building a darkened home theater room, it's going to be either a Pioneer plasma or a front projector for me.

enjoy
gandalf

P.S. My 800th post!

[Electric_Haggis]

I'm rather impressed with the new Sony XBR series - they're the best LCD TVs on the market right now. But the Pioneer KURO plasmas have got to be the best TVs on the planet - FULL-STOP. Wow... it's hard to overhype the value of deep blacks....

On another note, do we have offical word on the BenQ W10000 font-projector?
True 24p or not?

[HDTV1080P]

Originally Posted by Electric_Haggis

I'm rather impressed with the new Sony XBR series - they're the best LCD TVs on the market right now. But the Pioneer KURO plasmas have got to be the best TVs on the planet - FULL-STOP. Wow... it's hard to underhype the value of deep blacks....

On another note, do we have offical word on the BenQ W10000 font-projector?
True 24p or not?

It appears the BENQ W10000 is only 60HZ refreshing only. Looking at the manual it does not mention 1080P24 refresh rates. Now if a review comes out that states it correctly refreshes 1080P/24 then I will add it to the list.
It is disappointing that manufactories do not clearly list this information. Most of the time when the feature is not mentioned it means that the equipment does not have it.

http://www.projectorcentral.com/pdf/projector_manual_3589.pdf

[Electric_Haggis]

Thanks for that.

Does anyone here own an Optoma HD81? And what differences are you seeing between 24p and 60p/60i?

Thanks in advance...

[Rustmonsteru]

Is there any difference between Sony XBR4 & XBR5 displays?

[mr2bob]

XBR5 has a 18 month warranty vs 12 and a black bezel around the screen. You can get different color bezels for the XBR4. Other then that internally they are the same.

[HDTV1080P]

I just added the Sony KDS-Z60XBR5 SXRD rear projector to the list. I forgot to add this to the list when I originally added the Sony KDS-Z70XBR5. Both models are exactly the same in features and use the exact same instruction manual. The instruction manual for both these displays can be found on the Sony website under the specifications for the 70 inch display.
This link I am posting might change if Sony updates their website
http://www.sonystyle.com/webapp/wcs/stores/servlet/ProductDisplay?catalogId=10551&storeId=10151&langI d=-1&productId=8198552921665156111

[HDTV1080P]

When comparing the Pioneer Kuro Plasmas’s to the Sony LCD’s and Sony SXRD displays on the list here are a couple of features that Sony has removed to cut cost on this years models

This year’s models of Sony LCD’s and SXRD rear projectors all lack a built in cable card slot and a built in A/B switch. All of this years Pioneer displays on the list have a cable card slot and a built in A/B switch.
The cable card slot is a minor issue since manufactories have not started placing two way QAM tuners in sets yet. The Pioneer Plasma’s allow one to subscribe to digital cable premium channels without the need for a cable box. The catch is most people prefer to use cable boxes since one way cable cards do not support VOD and pay per view services.
Now removing the built in A/B switch feature off all the new Sony’s was a ridiculous cost cutting move. The Pioneer has a built in A/B switch and this years models of Sony’s eliminate that nice feature. It is nice to be able to switch between cable TV and an outdoor TV antenna with a push of a button on the remote control. Most of the time the quality of HDTV over the air broadcasts are better quality with a outdoor or indoor antenna compared to the higher compressed cable and satellite channels.

There is an error on the Sony website. In the KDS-Z70XBR5 specification section it mentions that it has a built in A/B switch with 2 RF inputs. But if one looks in the instruction manual on page 17 it clearly mentions that the display only has one RF input and an external A/B switch is needed to switch between cable and an Antenna.

http://www.sonystyle.com/webapp/wcs/...52921665156111

[gand41f]

Originally Posted by HDTV1080P

When comparing the Pioneer Kuro Plasmas’s to the Sony LCD’s and Sony SXRD displays on the list here are a couple of features that Sony has removed to cut cost on this years models

This year’s models of Sony LCD’s and SXRD rear projectors all lack a built in cable card slot and a built in A/B switch. All of this years Pioneer displays on the list have a cable card slot and a built in A/B switch.
The cable card slot is a minor issue since manufactories have not started placing two way QAM tuners in sets yet. The Pioneer Plasma’s allow one to subscribe to digital cable premium channels without the need for a cable box. The catch is most people prefer to use cable boxes since one way cable cards do not support VOD and pay per view services.
Now removing the built in A/B switch feature off all the new Sony’s was a ridiculous cost cutting move. The Pioneer has a built in A/B switch and this years models of Sony’s eliminate that nice feature. It is nice to be able to switch between cable TV and an outdoor TV antenna with a push of a button on the remote control. Most of the time the quality of HDTV over the air broadcasts are better quality with a outdoor or indoor antenna compared to the higher compressed cable and satellite channels.

There is an error on the Sony website. In the KDS-Z70XBR5 specification section it mentions that it has a built in A/B switch with 2 RF inputs. But if one looks in the instruction manual on page 17 it clearly mentions that the display only has one RF input and an external A/B switch is needed to switch between cable and an Antenna.

http://www.sonystyle.com/webapp/wcs/...52921665156111

Well, it doesn't have cable card and QAM tuner so what's the point of an A/V RF switch? Without a QAM tuner, you'll need an external cable box anyway, and that will feed you HDMI or DVI or component. Am I missing something?

enjoy
gandalf