3D/2D Displays that support 3D & 2D & 24p at multiplies of the original frame rate

[HDTV1080P]

Pioneer Elite PRO-111FD Plasma flat panel August 2008 review link

Scott Wilkinson over at UltimateAVmag.com has written an excellent review on the new Pioneer Elite PR0-111FD. The Pioneer Plasma’s still are the best flat panels in terms of picture and sound quality. The built in stereo speakers are excellent compared to other displays. Of course a surround sound system sounds better, but sometimes one may want to do causal TV surfing and not mess around with the surround sound system.

Pioneer displays are the only flat panels on the market that have 72HZ refresh rates for 1080P/24 material. The film quality is excellent at 72HZ refresh rate on Pioneer Plasmas’s with a better quality film look compared to 120HZ LCD screens. LCD screens still suffer from some motion blur at 120HZ with some fast moving film images.


1080P/24 feature quote


“It bears repeating that all Pioneer TVs have the ability to display 1080p/24 at 72Hz, repeating each frame three times. This avoids 3:2 pulldown altogether and results in much smoother motion on film-based material. I know of no other flat panels with this rare and important feature.”


Unique calibration features on the Elite series


“Unique to the Elite line—and, presumably, the upcoming Reference monitors—are ISF Day and Night modes, which can be calibrated only from the service menu or by using special software developed by Sencore. These modes let a calibrator lock in the calibration so they can't be messed up by inveterate but unskilled tweakers.”


The Pioneer Remote control is not as good as last years models


"Pioneer changed the design of the Kuro remote this year, and it's a step backward for the most part. The buttons are smaller and more uniform in size and shape, which makes them harder to find by feel. It's illuminated, but some of the labels are on the body, so they can't be seen in the dark even with the backlight on.
Like last year, the remote is a universal type that can control up to six devices in addition to the TV. However, the buttons for other devices are now on the main body, not behind a flip-down lid, making the button layout more cluttered. At least it still has dedicated input-selection buttons, though the HDMI buttons are not identified as they are on the PRO-110FD remote—the input buttons are identified only by number.”

Harder menu's compared to last year

"This year, there is no button for accessing Home Media Gallery—it is accessed from the menu. Speaking of which, the menu system has been slightly redesigned, and like the remote, it's a step backward. Whereas the picture controls were buried fairly deep last year, they are even deeper this year, taking many button pushes to get just about anywhere you want. “

Positive picture quality comments for the Pioneer PRO-111FD

“However, in the Pure AV Mode with Color Space set to 2, such adjustments proved unnecessary—the primary and secondary color points were as close to the HD standard as any set I have yet reviewed. “
“Amazingly, the PRO-111FD achieved even an lower black level than the 110FD—in fact, the new model’s black level was only 25% of the 8G’s, reaching the lower limit of my Minolta LS-100 light meter.
As I was taking these measurements, I noticed one odd thing. When switching from a white field or white window to a black field, the black level dropped to literally 0 after maybe 10 seconds, making the TV look like it was turned off. (In a totally dark room such as we have at Grayscale Studio, a black field on the Pioneer can still be seen, except after this strange phenomenon.) I didn’t notice this in real-world content, but I thought it worth mentioning.”
“All of the moving resolution tests on the FPD Benchmark Blu-ray test disc looked excellent, with very little loss of detail. These tests illustrate the superior motion resolution of plasma over LCD. Gradation in the 0-100 ramp showed only slight banding, with a bit more in the 0-25 ramp, and differentiation in the mostly black and mostly white shots was superb.
This was confirmed on Pioneer’s own Blu-ray demo disc, which includes lots of mostly black shots as well as bright, saturated colors. The blacks were super-rich, and differentiation in the mostly black photo studio was excellent. The colors of flowers, cars, and skin tones were completely natural, detail in leaves and petals was exquisite, and the contrast in shots of fireworks was stunning.”
“During this test, I discovered that Pioneer seems to have fixed the bug I found in the PRO-110FD, which behaved unpredictably if the film mode was set to something other than Off when the set received a progressive signal. In the PRO-111FD, all film modes are available all the time, and when the set gets a progressive signal, it doesn’t do anything even if one of the modes is engaged. “
“Despite the few minor imperfections I found, the Pioneer Elite PRO-111FD upholds the Kuro tradition admirably. Black level, detail, and color are second to none. If you insist on the best at any cost, look no further.”

“Highs
Unbeatable blacks
Excellent shadow detail
Gorgeous color
Stunning detail
Displays 1080p/24 at 72Hz
ISF calibration modes

Lows
Picture controls associated with AV modes, not inputs
Menu controls buried several levels deep
Remote not as good as previous generation
Above-white partially clipped”

All quotes taken from the following review link
http://ultimateavmag.com/flatpaneldisplays/808pio111/index.html

[Bruce Morrison]

I have the Panasonic 46PZ80 and I've recently invested in Blu-ray. I'm puzzled by reviews of the Panny quoted earlier in this thread, which refer to "selecting" the 48Hz option. I can't find any menu option that allows selection of the refresh rate and there appears to be no mention of such an option in the user manual. I thought the TV automatically switched to 48Hz when it detects a 24p input such as Blu-ray. If not, how can the 48Hz option be selected?

I should mention that I'm based in the UK so my TV is the UK model - is there a difference between the UK and US models in this respect?

On Blu-ray discs, in certain medium-speed horizontal panning shots, I'm experiencing some motion judder of objects in the background of the shot. I'm wondering whether I do have a setting wrong somewhere, or is this simply due to the fact that the 24fps frame rate isn't enough to smooth out motion across the screen? Was I expecting too much in hoping that all motion would be perfectly smooth with Blu-ray?

[HDTV1080P]

Originally Posted by Bruce Morrison

I have the Panasonic 46PZ80 and I've recently invested in Blu-ray. I'm puzzled by reviews of the Panny quoted earlier in this thread, which refer to "selecting" the 48Hz option. I can't find any menu option that allows selection of the refresh rate and there appears to be no mention of such an option in the user manual. I thought the TV automatically switched to 48Hz when it detects a 24p input such as Blu-ray. If not, how can the 48Hz option be selected?

I should mention that I'm based in the UK so my TV is the UK model - is there a difference between the UK and US models in this respect?

On Blu-ray discs, in certain medium-speed horizontal panning shots, I'm experiencing some motion judder of objects in the background of the shot. I'm wondering whether I do have a setting wrong somewhere, or is this simply due to the fact that the 24fps frame rate isn't enough to smooth out motion across the screen? Was I expecting too much in hoping that all motion would be perfectly smooth with Blu-ray?

Only the 800U and 850U have the option to turn on 48HZ film mode. As noted on the list, the reviews have claimed this 48HZ mode has a “unwatchable flicker problem” or “flicker problem”.
Your Panasonic TH-46PZ80U is a 50HZ only display (60HZ US model). The 48HZ option is found on the TH-46PZ800U. What can be very confusing is when manufactories have very similar model numbers, like adding a extra 0 to the model number. Other manufactories have done the same thing with very similar model numbers and it can get confusing. The list only has the 800 series and not the 80 series. Also be aware that some people feel the 800U and 850U are unwatchable at 48HZ because of the flicker problem.

[Go Blue]

While reading you post about the 9G Pio, I found this interesting: “During this test, I discovered that Pioneer seems to have fixed the bug I found in the PRO-110FD, which behaved unpredictably if the film mode was set to something other than Off when the set received a progressive signal. In the PRO-111FD, all film modes are available all the time, and when the set gets a progressive signal, it doesn’t do anything even if one of the modes is engaged.“

I have a 8G Elite Kuro and have always wondered what to do with this mode. I have always left it on Standard, unless watching a BD, which I change to Advanced. Reading the above makes me wonder if I should leave it Off at all times. Have you read anything definitive on this?

[Bruce Morrison]

Originally Posted by HDTV1080P

Only the 800U and 850U have the option to turn on 48HZ film mode. As noted on the list, the reviews have claimed this 48HZ mode has a “unwatchable flicker problem” or “flicker problem”.
Your Panasonic TH-46PZ80U is a 50HZ only display (60HZ US model). The 48HZ option is found on the TH-46PZ800U. What can be very confusing is when manufactories have very similar model numbers, like adding a extra 0 to the model number. Other manufactories have done the same thing with very similar model numbers and it can get confusing. The list only has the 800 series and not the 80 series. Also be aware that some people feel the 800U and 850U are unwatchable at 48HZ because of the flicker problem.

You're referring to the US model range - the UK range (ending with "B" instead of "U") has different specs. In the UK, the PZ80, PZ85 and PZ800 series all support 24p playback. But the 48Hz option can't be explicitly selected - I think it must be invoked automatically when the TV detects that it has a 24p input.

Anyway, I'm still wondering why I still see some motion judder in the background objects during horizontal pans. I think I might try out one or two examples at my dealer to see if their setup gives the same result. Maybe it's just an inevitable consequence of the 24fps frame rate.

[gekke henkie]

Originally Posted by Bruce Morrison

You're referring to the US model range - the UK range (ending with "B" instead of "U") has different specs. In the UK, the PZ80, PZ85 and PZ800 series all support 24p playback. But the 48Hz option can't be explicitly selected

Bruce, this part is correct; the rest isn't, as far as I know. This entire topic/thread only applies to either North American or International models (like some projectors). The specific European models use the PAL-system mainly and are therefore designed to do this best (even when NTSC is included). This means that with 24p, usually one frame is added to transform it into 25fps (PAL) and then converted to 50Hz (beeing the European power-frequency) or sometimes doubled to 100Hz. In all these cases, this will not result in a multiple of 24fps, unfortunately!

By the way, many, many models 'support 24p', but this only means that it accepts a 24p inputsignal and does NOT mean that the picture showed is actually a (multiple of) 24p. Practically, when you live in Europe and want to watch a multiple of 24p, the only option you have is to buy an International model; like most projectors mentioned at the 1st page (there might even be a LCD/Plasma also, I haven't heard about any yet)

[Bruce Morrison]

Originally Posted by gekke henkie

Bruce, this part is correct; the rest isn't, as far as I know. This entire topic/thread only applies to either North American or International models (like some projectors). The specific European models use the PAL-system mainly and are therefore designed to do this best (even when NTSC is included). This means that with 24p, usually one frame is added to transform it into 25fps (PAL) and then converted to 50Hz (beeing the European power-frequency) or sometimes doubled to 100Hz. In all these cases, this will not result in a multiple of 24fps, unfortunately!

By the way, many, many models 'support 24p', but this only means that it accepts a 24p inputsignal and does NOT mean that the picture showed is actually a (multiple of) 24p. Practically, when you live in Europe and want to watch a multiple of 24p, the only option you have is to buy an International model; like most projectors mentioned at the 1st page (there might even be a LCD/Plasma also, I haven't heard about any yet)

The feature is called "24p playback" rather than "24p input" or "24p support". This suggests that the TV is capable of reproducing this frame rate rather than merely accepting a 24p input and then converting it to something else. That was definitely the view on an AVForums thread when I was planning to buy the TV, and I haven't seen anything to the contrary since then. However, I will post a question on that forum to make sure about it.

[HDTV1080P]

Originally Posted by schultz

While reading you post about the 9G Pio, I found this interesting: “During this test, I discovered that Pioneer seems to have fixed the bug I found in the PRO-110FD, which behaved unpredictably if the film mode was set to something other than Off when the set received a progressive signal. In the PRO-111FD, all film modes are available all the time, and when the set gets a progressive signal, it doesn’t do anything even if one of the modes is engaged.“

I have a 8G Elite Kuro and have always wondered what to do with this mode. I have always left it on Standard, unless watching a BD, which I change to Advanced. Reading the above makes me wonder if I should leave it Off at all times. Have you read anything definitive on this?

The film modes like the advanced mode on all Pioneer Plasmas are when one wants to do a reverse 3:2 pulldown for film based material from a DVD or other film based source. If my memory is correct the Advanced mode does a reverse 3:2 pulldown for film based material like satellite, cable, and DVD that was already encoded with 3:2 pulldown and refreshes the image at 72HZ. The smooth mode is for 60HZ video material that has a smoothing effect with 3:2 pulldown material left intact if there is 3:2 pulldown used and a 60HZ refresh rate is used. Now with a BLU-RAY source at 1080P/24 the Pioneer 7th, 8th, and 9th generation Plasmas will always display the image at 72HZ regardless of the menu settings. It is always good to avoid 3:2 pulldown for film based material since the encoding and reverse decoding process can add some judder or errors in the reverse 3:2 pulldown process.

[SAM LN32A650]

Pan Th42pz80u

24p-yes
24p Playback-no

so what does that actually mean?

[Bruce Morrison]

Originally Posted by gekke henkie

Bruce, this part is correct; the rest isn't, as far as I know. This entire topic/thread only applies to either North American or International models (like some projectors). The specific European models use the PAL-system mainly and are therefore designed to do this best (even when NTSC is included). This means that with 24p, usually one frame is added to transform it into 25fps (PAL) and then converted to 50Hz (beeing the European power-frequency) or sometimes doubled to 100Hz. In all these cases, this will not result in a multiple of 24fps, unfortunately!

By the way, many, many models 'support 24p', but this only means that it accepts a 24p inputsignal and does NOT mean that the picture showed is actually a (multiple of) 24p. Practically, when you live in Europe and want to watch a multiple of 24p, the only option you have is to buy an International model; like most projectors mentioned at the 1st page (there might even be a LCD/Plasma also, I haven't heard about any yet)

I've obtained some more information from the AVforum, and here's a link to Panasonic's UK website, which confirms that the PZ80B models operate at 48Hz when playing a 24p source:

http://www.panasonic.co.uk/html/en_GB/710037/index.html

This is also true of the PZ85B and PZ800B models, as I mentioned in my previous post.

Now that Blu-ray is with us, most major TV manufacturers are providing proper 24p playback capability for HD discs even in PAL territories.

[HDTV1080P]

Originally Posted by Bruce Morrison

I've obtained some more information from the AVforum, and here's a link to Panasonic's UK website, which confirms that the PZ80B models operate at 48Hz when playing a 24p source:

http://www.panasonic.co.uk/html/en_GB/710037/index.html

This is also true of the PZ85B and PZ800B models, as I mentioned in my previous post.

Now that Blu-ray is with us, most major TV manufacturers are providing proper 24p playback capability for HD discs even in PAL territories.

Ok I have confirmed that the TH-42PZ800B is a true 48HZ Panasonic that may have the same flicker problem as the US 800U. Also check out this link. The TH42PZ80B clearly is a 50HZ and 60HZ display for 1080P and will not display 24fps at multiplies of the original frame. Under the specs comparison sheet only the Z800B UK model says yes for “24P Real Cinema”. The Z80B does not have 24P real cinema mode. Panasonic has made this very confusing when they made the decision to label 24P inputs as “24P Playback”
Look at spec sheet that compares the two models
http://www.panasonic.co.uk/html/en_GB/287749/module/general/compare/products/displayResult.html?p=TH-42PZ80B&p=TH-42PZ800B

[Bruce Morrison]

Originally Posted by HDTV1080P

Ok I have confirmed that the TH-42PZ800B is a true 48HZ Panasonic that may have the same flicker problem as the US 800U. Also check out this link. The TH42PZ80B clearly is a 50HZ and 60HZ display for 1080P and will not display 24fps at multiplies of the original frame. Under the specs comparison sheet only the Z800B UK model says yes for “24P Real Cinema”. The Z80B does not have 24P real cinema mode. Panasonic has made this very confusing when they made the decision to label 24P inputs as “24P Playback”
Look at spec sheet that compares the two models
http://www.panasonic.co.uk/html/en_GB/287749/module/general/compare/products/displayResult.html?p=TH-42PZ80B&p=TH-42PZ800B

You've misunderstood what Panasonic mean by the terms "24p playback" and "24p real cinema" (understandably, since Panasonic don't go out of their way to explain them clearly).

"24p playback" means that the TV reproduces 24p sources at 48Hz.

"24p Real Cinema" is present in conjunction with "Intelligent Frame Creation" (IFC). It means that the TV runs at 96Hz for a 24p source and uses frame interpolation software to generate "made-up" frames between the actual frames in order to (theoretically) smooth out the motion, by reducing the effects of inherent film judder. This can be switched on or off.

24p playback is available on the PZ80B, PZ85B and PZ800B models. However, 24p Real Cinema and IFC are available only on the PZ85B and PZ800B models.

Some UK users who have the PZ85 or PZ800 models have found that the IFC feature produces an unnatural look for films on Blu-ray and have opted to keep it switched off. (That's why I settled for a PZ80B model rather than a more expensive PZ85B or PZ800B model.)

I've confirmed from some people on the AVForum that the motion judder I've been seeing with some films on Blu-ray is just the natural film judder that is inherently present in many films on panning shots, and which would also be seen in the cinema.

[HDTV1080P]

According to this UK spec sheet comparison the Z85B, Z800B, and Z81B all have the real 24P real cinema mode. Only the Z80B lacks that mode.
http://www.panasonic.co.uk/html/en_GB/287749/module/general/compare/products/displayResult.html?p=TH-42PZ80B&p=TH-46PZ81B&p=TH-42PZ800B&p=TH-46PZ85B

[HDTV1080P]

Originally Posted by Bruce Morrison

You've misunderstood what Panasonic mean by the terms "24p playback" and "24p real cinema" (understandably, since Panasonic don't go out of their way to explain them clearly).

"24p playback" means that the TV reproduces 24p sources at 48Hz.

"24p Real Cinema" is present in conjunction with "Intelligent Frame Creation" (IFC). It means that the TV runs at 96Hz and uses frame interpolation software to generate "made-up" frames between the actual frames in order to (theoretically) smooth out the motion, by reducing the effects of inherent film judder. This can be switched on or off.

24p playback is available on the PZ80B, PZ85B and PZ800B models. However, 24p Real Cinema and IFC are available only on the PZ85B and PZ800B models.

Some UK users who have the PZ85 or PZ800 models have found that the IFC feature produces an unnatural look for films on Blu-ray and have opted to keep it switched off. (That's why I settled for a PZ80B model rather than a more expensive PZ85B or PZ800B model.)

I've confirmed from some people on the AVForum that the motion judder I've been seeing with some films on Blu-ray is just the natural film judder that is inherently present in many films on panning shots, and which would also be seen in the cinema.

That is interesting because in the US they are 48HZ refresh rate when it says real cinema. I am not up on the UK models. Thanks for the info.

[Bruce Morrison]

Originally Posted by HDTV1080P

According to this UK spec sheet comparison the Z85B, Z800B, and Z81B all have the real 24P real cinema mode. Only the Z80B lacks that mode.
http://www.panasonic.co.uk/html/en_GB/287749/module/general/compare/products/displayResult.html?p=TH-42PZ80B&p=TH-46PZ81B&p=TH-42PZ800B&p=TH-46PZ85B

Yes that's correct - but see my post above.

[HDTV1080P]

Originally Posted by Bruce Morrison

You've misunderstood what Panasonic mean by the terms "24p playback" and "24p real cinema" (understandably, since Panasonic don't go out of their way to explain them clearly).

"24p playback" means that the TV reproduces 24p sources at 48Hz.

"24p Real Cinema" is present in conjunction with "Intelligent Frame Creation" (IFC). It means that the TV runs at 96Hz for a 24p source and uses frame interpolation software to generate "made-up" frames between the actual frames in order to (theoretically) smooth out the motion, by reducing the effects of inherent film judder. This can be switched on or off.

24p playback is available on the PZ80B, PZ85B and PZ800B models. However, 24p Real Cinema and IFC are available only on the PZ85B and PZ800B models.

Some UK users who have the PZ85 or PZ800 models have found that the IFC feature produces an unnatural look for films on Blu-ray and have opted to keep it switched off. (That's why I settled for a PZ80B model rather than a more expensive PZ85B or PZ800B model.)

I've confirmed from some people on the AVForum that the motion judder I've been seeing with some films on Blu-ray is just the natural film judder that is inherently present in many films on panning shots, and which would also be seen in the cinema.

Why would Panasonic change the term meanings for the UK version. Here is the US display comparison between the 800U and 85U. In the United States “24P Playback” means the use of 2/3 pulldown process (also known as 3/2 pulldown 60HZ). “24P Cinematic Playback” means 48HZ in the USA. Why would the UK models use the same or similar terms that mean something different?
Check out this link
http://www2.panasonic.com/webapp/wcs/stores/servlet/vModelComparisonResults?storeId=15001&catalogId=13 401&catGroupId=103502&surfCategory=VIERA%26%23174% 3B%20Flat-Panel%20HDTVs&cacheProgram=11002&cachePartner=7000 000000000005702&items=227173|221678|

[gekke henkie]

According to this spec-sheet, these new DLP projectors (DarkChip3) from DPI (Digital Projection International) include 48kHz for 24p using 2:2 pulldown:
http://www.projectorcentral.com/pdf/..._spec_4253.pdf

Not only the DPI iVision 30-1080p is interesting, but for HTPC owners the 30-WUXGA is also quite remarkable with 1920x1200 native , 2 lamp choices (3,100 or 2,300 ANSI) and 2 lens choices (regular 1.6-2.0 or wide 0.95); I just wonder what prices they will charge for the different options.

[Bruce Morrison]

Originally Posted by HDTV1080P

[SIZE=3][COLOR=#000000][FONT=Calibri]Why would Panasonic change the term meanings for the UK version. Here is the US display comparison between the 800U and 85U. In the United States “24P Playback” means the use of 2/3 pulldown process (also known as 3/2 pulldown 60HZ). “24P Cinematic Playback” means 48HZ in the USA. Why would the UK models use the same or similar terms that mean something different?

Well in fact, there is a difference in Panasonic's terminology anyway. The US market has "24p Cinematic Playback", whereas the UK market (and Europe generally as far as I know) has "24p Real Cinema".

It's true that "24p playback" means something different in the two markets. But you need to keep in mind that the two markets are different technically. In a PAL territory such as the UK, 3:2 pulldown has always been irrelevant since the PAL video standard is based on 50Hz rather than 60Hz, and no speed correction is applied on PAL VHS and DVD (hence the 4% speed-up experienced when playing back a film using a PAL video source).

It's only with HD sources such as Blu-ray that the UK and Europe can now experience playback of films at the correct speed, without having to import discs from North America or Japan.

[HDTV1080P]

Originally Posted by gekke henkie

According to this spec-sheet, these new DLP projectors (DarkChip3) from DPI (Digital Projection International) include 48kHz for 24p using 2:2 pulldown:
http://www.projectorcentral.com/pdf/..._spec_4253.pdf

Not only the DPI iVision 30-1080p is interesting, but for HTPC owners the 30-WUXGA is also quite remarkable with 1920x1200 native , 2 lamp choices (3,100 or 2,300 ANSI) and 2 lens choices (regular 1.6-2.0 or wide 0.95); I just wonder what prices they will charge for the different options.

Thanks for the information. Before I add this to the list I am going to wait until a spec sheet or professional review mentions how 1080P/24 is handled. Some front projectors add 3:2 pulldown and refresh the image incorrectly at 60HZ. Now the spec sheet you provided does mention a vertical frequenzy range of 50-110HZ. So the projector either refreshes 1080P/24 material at 48HZ, 60HZ, 72HZ, or 96HZ.

Update

I just sent the company a email requesting the refresh rate once a 1080P/24 signal is received.

[gekke henkie]

Originally Posted by HDTV1080P

Thanks for the information. Before I add this to the list I am going to wait until a spec sheet or professional review mentions how 1080P/24 is handled. Some front projectors add 3:2 pulldown and refresh the image incorrectly at 60HZ.

Besides mentioning the Vertical frequency range, if you look at the 1st page, left column, header 'Video Compatibility', it also mentions the 'automatic film mode detection' with both 3:2 and 2:2 pulldown compatibility. Since 2:2 pulldown from a 60Hz source to 120Hz, would not fit the 110Hz Vertical frequency, I would be very surprised if this 2:2 pulldown isn't used for 24p sources (to 48Hz). But, let's see what DPI replies .