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#521 | |
Blu-ray Champion
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Now in the United States 2:2 pulldown sometimes means 24fps being frame doubled to 48HZ which causes a little confusion . 48HZ is multiplies of the original frame but PAL/SECAM 2:2 pulldown and NTSC 3:2 pulldown (also known as 2:3 pulldown) cause unwanted artifacts in the conversion of film to video. Last edited by HDTV1080P; 08-20-2008 at 04:13 PM. |
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#522 |
Senior Member
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Wow, I didn't know that 12 frame method. Thank you for being so informative, once again! I'm still curious though what DPI replies.
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#523 | |
Active Member
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It's perhaps not a surprise that Panasonic's UK & US specs differ for models with similar model numbers -- from what I can see the PZ80U and the PZ80B don't even come in the same cabinet!
As far as the U.K models are concerned, this is the closest I can find to a definitive answer on the whole question of 24p support: from the forums at whathifi.com:- (link) Quote:
PZ80: true 24p @ 96Hz (described as 4:4 pulldown) PZ85 & above: true 24p with Intelligent Frame Creation (which can be switched off if you don't like it - giving you the 4:4 pulldown of the PZ80) If you read through the thread you'll see that this was confirmed to Clare Newsome directly by Panasonic UK. (EDIT: I suspect that by 'interlace' Clare actually means to say 'Intelligent Frame Creation, which interpolates new frames...') (EDIT 2: Panasonic makes lovely TVs but their clarity in writing websites and brochures leaves a lot to be desired.) Last edited by mx2004; 08-21-2008 at 12:46 PM. Reason: clarification |
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#524 |
Blu-ray Champion
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![]() Pioneer Elite Kuro PRO-111FD 50-inch plasma HDTV (October 2008 Sound and Vision Review link) This new review from Sound and Vision regarding the Pioneer PRO-111FD is a very good review. I did want to mention one small error they made in the review under key features. The 9th generation Kuro’s have only one 1 component input, 1 S-Video input and one RF input, the review mentions 2 component inputs by mistake, 2 S-Video inputs by mistake, and a dual ant/cable RF input by mistake. The 8th generation kuro's had more inputs and features like TV guide with cablecard but cost $1,000 more. Of course the 9th generation has a better picture quality which is the most important feature. The Pioneer 9th generation also has 3 composite inputs, the review only mentions 2. Quotes from Sound and Vision magazine ”24p input mode with 3:3 pulldown (72-Hz display)” “Deeper blacks and a host of refinements make this year’s Elite Kuro even better than its award-winning predecessor” “You’d expect a 50-inch plasma TV that sells for five grand to be packed with bells and whistles, and the PRO-111FD doesn’t disappoint. Its Optimum picture mode uses internal and external sensors to make automatic picture adjustments — including brightness, contrast, color, and even color temperature — based on ambient light conditions in your room. “ “Moving from the interiors of Mad Men to the outer space of 2001: A Space Odyssey so I could check out the Pioneer’s handling of really deep blacks, I noticed that the dark star field that the Jupiter Mission ship cruises through was only the faintly lighter than the TV’s black bezel. This made the image look both seamless and endlessly deep — even more so than on the PRO-110FD, which was named S&V’s Product of the Year for 2007. “ “After testing last year’s PRO-110FD Kuro set, I didn’t think a plasma TV could get any better. I was wrong. The PRO-111FD delivers even deeper blacks, and its natural-looking color, clean video processing, and powerful noise reduction contribute to a picture that’s nothing short of breathtaking. “ http://www.soundandvisionmag.com/hdtvs/2949/pioneer-elite-kuro-pro-111fd-50-inch-plasma-hdtv.html Last edited by HDTV1080P; 08-22-2008 at 09:23 PM. |
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#525 |
Banned
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I've only scanned this thread, so apologies if this has been covered, but there seems to be a lot of talk about 24fps on BD and how it's handled by sets.
When we say 24fps, we're really rounding up. The overwheliming number of titles I've seen are actually encoded at 23.976fps (like film-sourced NTSC DVD). This is because they are generally played back on 60Hz NTSC sets using 2-3 pulldown repeated frames. NTSC isn't actually 30fps or 60Hz, it's 29.97fps and 59.94Hz for technical reasons. I believe that's whay they're encoded slightly less than 24fps. In the UK, LCD TVs are multi-standard and can handle both 50Hz and 60Hz. I don't believe players/TVs add frames to BD content on the fly to go from '24' to 25fps, they play back using 2-3 pulldown to go to 30fps, hence they judder like mad. Additonally, the Toshiba TVs with 'M100 Active Vision' (Z and ZF series) aren't restircted to 100Hz. They use M100 because people in the UK are used to seeing 100Hz in advertising. If they used 120Hz it would confuse the average person. The UK Toshiba sets that have M100 with 5-5 pulldown do it at 120Hz. It's basically the UK equivalent of the ClearFrame technology. This is the information given to me by a Toshiba engineer after a very lengthy chat about the fuctions of the set. He also mentioned that the Faroudja chipset in the TVs can do 2-2, 3-3 and 4-4 pulldown as well. Now the bit I'm querying with them at the moment is whether these sets do true 5-5 pulldown. Those reviews of the US sets claim that FS: Standard is 5-5, but I'm still not 100% convinced. The Toshiba engineer said that it was supposed to be engaged automatically, and I've read a couple of reviews that have said the same. It's not on my set, so they are actively investigating the conditions required to activate true 24fps with 5-5 pulldown. I'm expecting them to call me back on Monday with further details, as the guy I spoke to was actually very helpful (for a change). |
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#526 |
Blu-ray Champion
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![]() Sony KDL-52W4100 review link (5:5 pulldown 120HZ) I have updated the Sony W4100 series links on the list so that when one clicks it on it will goto the new August 2008 review at Ultimate A/V on the Sony KDL-52W4100. According to the review when motion enhancer (motion flow) is turned off each 24fps source from a 1080P signal is repeated 5X without interpolation of new frames. Also the 52W4100 has a little better black level and better frame interpolation compared to the Sony XBR4 series. On top of that a free onscreen TV guide is included. 1080P/24 correctly refreshed at 120HZ when Motion Enhancer (Motionflow) is turned off Quote “If Motionflow is turned off, the set simply repeats each frame two or five times, depending on the rate of the source signal.” When motionflow is turned on interpolation of new frames occurs and the image has more of a 60HZ video look compared to a film look. “As with the 52XBR4, the 52W4100 doubles the rate at which complete frames are flashed on the screen, from 60 to 120 per second. This is supposed to reduce motion blur, a problem endemic to LCD TVs. If it receives a 60Hz signal (such as 480i/p, 1080i, or 1080p/60), it inserts an extra frame between the actual frames in the signal; if it receives a 24Hz signal (that is, 1080p/24), it inserts four new frames between the actual frames to reach 120Hz.” "A feature called Motionflow interpolates between actual frames to create these extra frames, calculating where objects in motion should be in each new frame. This is intended to smooth out onscreen motion." “Unlike the 52XBR4, the 52W4100 offers TV Guide On Screen, an electronic program guide for broadcast TV channels. This is a nice touch, though probably superfluous for most users who have cable or satellite service with their own EPGs.” “Comparisons & Conclusion "The most immediate comparison is with Sony's own KDL-52XBR4. The 52W4100 doesn't have quite as many bells and whistles, but none of them are critical in my opinion. The newer model has a much lower effective black level and displays much sharper detail on DVDs. Even better, the 52W4100 is $1000 less than the equivalent XBR4." "The other obvious comparison is with the Samsung LN52A750, which lists for $200 more than the 52W4100. The Samsung achieves a slightly lower black level, and it has slightly better 120Hz frame interpolation—that is, it exhibits fewer artifacts in problematic material. Also, the Samsung can access media files from a DLNA (Digital Living Network Alliance) server or USB storage device, which is much more useful than BIVL for folks with an Internet connection slower than 15Mbps—that is, most of us—and it doesn't cost extra. The video quality is better, too. I prefer the Samsung's menu system, but the Sony's onboard sound is better, and its bezel is smaller, which could be a factor for some. Overall, the KDL-52W4100 improves on the 52XBR4 in most ways, including black level, frame interpolation, and DVD detail. It's a fine LCD TV that I can recommend without reservation. “ “Highs Razor-sharp detail Rich, natural colors Excellent effective black level DMex capable Excellent performance on DVD Lows Menu system could be better organized 120Hz frame interpolation not the best I've seen (but much better than XBR4) Shadow detail not the best I've seen BIVL requires ultra-fast Internet connection to be effective; even then, video quality is poor.” LINK TO THE FULL REVIEW http://ultimateavmag.com/flatpaneldi.../808sonykdl52/ Last edited by HDTV1080P; 08-30-2008 at 10:55 PM. |
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#527 |
Member
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Hi, i live in Chile (60 HZ area), South America and i have a Samsung full HD model LN40N81BX. When i play movies on 1080p/24p and then i see my lcd display it says "1080p/24 hertz". When the source is 1024p/60 it shows 1024p/60 hertz. Does it mean my TV is 1024p/24 compatible? I don't know if this model has been reviewed. Sorry if it has.
Last edited by peterfabian; 09-01-2008 at 04:02 AM. |
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#528 | |
Blu-ray Champion
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When your Samsung says “1080P/60 hertz” this means your BLU-RAY player is internally converting 24fps film based material to 60HZ in the 1080P format using a 3:2 pulldown process. All Samsung displays will either display 60HZ video at 60HZ or if one owns a 120HZ model 60HZ signals will be displayed at 120HZ. When your Samsung says “1080P/24 hertz” it is receiving a 24hertz 1080P signal from the BLU-RAY player. No film projector or consumer display every made displays 24fps at 24fps since there would be a unwatchable flicker on the screen. So your Samsung display most likely uses a 3:2 pulldown process and converts 24fps to 60HZ. Some of the newer 120HZ Samsung LCD displays that have AMP (auto motion plus) feature will properly do a 5:5 pulldown when AMP is turned off. So unless you own a Samsung display that says 120HZ with a AMP feature that can be turned off then most likely your display does not properly display 1080P/24 at multiplies of the original frame like a film projector does. Of course BLU-RAY still looks awesome on 60HZ 1080P displays. Consumers for decades have been watching 60HZ displays with 3:2 pulldown added. The only real advantage of true 1080P/24 over 1080P/60 displays is that 3:2 pulldown judder is bypassed and the BLU-RAY image has more of a film quality look compared to a 60HZ video look. Camera pans are nice and smooth with true cinema refresh rates and overall the image looks closer to film. Of course film media is not perfect and has its own judder issues and minor flaws that have nothing to do with 3:2 pulldown. Last edited by HDTV1080P; 09-01-2008 at 07:32 PM. |
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#529 | |
Member
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#530 |
Blu-ray Champion
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![]() 4 New JVC LCOS Front Projectors to be added to the list after further information becomes available JVC is known for making some of the best 1080P front projectors. JVC is going to release 4 new 1080P LCOS front projectors in November 2008 that makes improvements on their already excellent current 4 models of 1080P front projectors that are located on the list. As soon as I read a review or a professional spec sheet on the new JVC front projectors that mentions what refresh rate that is used to display native 1080P/24 I will add these new models to the list. Here are two links for more information on the new models. Two of the models are THX certified. http://www.twice.com/article/CA6593311.html?desc=topstory http://www.engadget.com/2008/09/04/jvc-launches-four-new-full-hd-projectors-at-cedia/ |
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#531 |
Blu-ray Champion
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![]() Pioneer Kuro PDP-6020FD Plasma Sept 2008 Home Theater review info I have updated the list so that the Pioneer PDP-6020FD points to the new Home Theater review link that just came available. http://hometheatermag.com/plasmadisplays/908piokuro/ Here are highlights from the review https://forum.blu-ray.com/showpost.php?p=1074975&postcount=493 Last edited by HDTV1080P; 09-09-2008 at 10:20 PM. |
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#532 |
Blu-ray Champion
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![]() New Sony 240HZ KDL-52XBR7 LCD flat panel might match or beat the quality of some Plasmas I thought 240HZ LCD displays were not coming out until 2009. I am very impressed that in December 2008 Sony is releasing a 240HZ LCD screen. The KDL-52XBR7 uses 240Hz Motionflow. Hopefully when motionflow is turned off the Sony display will do a true 10:10 pulldown for 1080P/24 material. I will wait for further information to become available before adding it to the 1080P/24 list. A 240HZ LCD in theory should reduce or eliminate the LCD motion blur problems that current 120HZ and 60HZ LCD displays have. It is possible that a 240HZ LCD might look better compared to a 60HZ or 72HZ Plasma screen. We will have to wait for test results to know for sure. If the 240HZ LCD eliminates the LCD motion blur problems and the black levels are very deep then plasma screens may disappear in 5 years. I would like to see this new Sony up against a Pioneer Kuro. Source link Sony Debuts 240Hz LCD HDTV http://www.avrev.com/home-theater-news/lcd-hdtv-news/sony-debuts-240hz-lcd-hdtv.html |
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#533 |
Blu-ray Champion
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![]() 2 NEW SONY FRONT PROJECTORS ADDED TO THE LIST According to my sources the new Sony VPL-HW10 and Sony VPL-VW70 SXRD (LCOS) Front Projectors will refresh 1080P/24 material at 96HZ. No official review available yet. Sony SXRD 1080P Front Projector VPL-HW10 (Projection Picture Size: 40" to 300" measured diagonally) (96Hz) Sony SXRD 1080P Front Projector VPL-VW70 (Projection Picture Size: 40" to 300" measured diagonally) (96Hz) The Sony VPL-VW40 Front projector has been moved to the discontinued list (list 3 of 3) Sony SXRD 1080P Front Projector VPL-VW40 (Projection Picture Size: 40" to 300" measured diagonally) (96Hz) |
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#534 |
Blu-ray Champion
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![]() The following new Sony 120HZ LCD flat panels have been added to the list Sony 120HZ XBR8 series Sony 120HZ XBR7 series Sony 120HZ XBR6 series Sony 120HZ KVL-40ZX1M Note: The Sony 240HZ KDL-52XBR7 was not added to the list at this time. 240HZ is a new technology and I am waiting for a professional review that can verify that when motionflow is turned off the display will do a true 10:10 pulldown for 1080P/24 material. The following Sony LCD flat panels has been moved to the discontinued list (list 3 of 3) Sony 120HZ XBR5 series Sony 120HZ XBR4 series Sony 48HZ V3000 series Last edited by HDTV1080P; 09-12-2008 at 04:43 AM. |
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#535 |
Blu-ray Champion
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![]() The Pioneer PRO-151FD 60 inch Plasma is $500 cheaper compared to the Sony KDL-55XBR8 55 inch LCD screen Pioneer PRO-151FD 60 inch ($6,500 list price)http://www.pioneerelectronics.com/ephox/StaticFiles/PUSA/Files/PRO-151FD.pdf Sony KDL-55XBR8 55 inch ($7,000 list price)http://www.sonystyle.com/webapp/wcs/stores/servlet/ProductDisplay?catalogId=10551&storeId=10151&langI d=-1&productId=8198552921665532062 The Sony 55 inch XBR8 LCD screen has the RGB Dynamic backlight which will give it some of the best colors in a LCD but personally if I was in the market for a new flat panel I would choose to save $500 and buy a Pioneer PRO-151FD 60 inch plasma which already has excellent colors, deep blacks, and does not suffer from motion blur at 72HZ refresh rate. This Sony 55 inch LCD seems to be over priced at $7,000. Sony could sell a lot more 55 inch LCD’s at a $6,000 price. Someone should do a review comparing the XBR8 to the Elite Pioneer kuro. This XBR8 is only 120HZ refresh. For $7,000 it would have been ideal to have 240HZ refresh to greatly reduce the LCD motion blur. Last edited by HDTV1080P; 09-12-2008 at 05:07 AM. |
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#536 |
Blu-ray Champion
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![]() Sony’s new XBR8 LCD flat panel color quality and contrast matches some high end Plasmas (new article) According to the October 2008 Popular Science magazine on page 26 they did a brief side by side comparison between the Sony XBR8 and a unnamed high-end plasma screen. The Sony XBR8 at the very minimum matched the color quality and contrast of the unnamed Plasma screen according to the article. It is starting to look like once high quality LED’s are used in LCD screens like the XBR8 and once 240HZ 10:10 refresh rates become available that LCD screens will match or beat Plasma screens in quality. Of course Plasma makers can always improve the color quality and increase the refresh rate. If a 120HZ Plasma was made it most likely would look better then a 240HZ LCD since Plasma has hardly any motion blur issues even at 72HZ. The advantage of LCD screens is that they do not suffer from burn in like Plasma screens can. It is possible that LCD screens may in 5 years or so replace Plasma screens if LCD screens start becoming better quality and cheaper. A lot can change in flat panel technology, Plasma current still is the king of quality. In 2 years perhaps LCD flat panels will be better quality then Plasma. Highlighted quotes from the article “New backlighting tech helps sets catch up to plasma’s color and contrast” “ALTHOUGH THEY ARE STARTING to outsell plasma panels, LCD TV’s have failed to impress true videophiles, who prefer plasma’s rich colors and deeper contrast. But Sony’s new XBR8 LCD may have finally closed the quality gap.” “Instead of using fluorescent tubes, Sony illuminates the screen with LEDs tuned to produce deeper shades of red, green and blue that TV’s mix to form colors. This allows it to match and possibly exceed plasma in the range of hues it can reproduce, going beyond even the current color palette in high-def TV broadcasts and Blu-ray movies. “Eliminating fluorescent tubes also allows Sony to increase contrast by dividing the screen into blocks, each lit by a cluster of LEDs.” Side by side comparison between Plasma and LCD Quote “In a side-by-side comparison, the XBR8’s color quality and contrast appeared to at least match a comparable high-end plasma television.” |
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#537 |
Blu-ray Champion
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![]() 3 New 120HZ NuVision LCD flat panels added to the list (Source, page 40 and 46 of the September 3rd Twice magazine) Nuvision use to make a 72HZ rear projector, but just like Sony has left the rear projector business. Now for the first time they have added 120HZ true 5:5 pulldown to 3 new LCD flat panels. The following models have been added to the list NuVision NVU42FX5 NuVision NVU47FX5 NuVision NVU52FX5 Quote from twice magazine “FX5 technology is NuVision’s 120Hz addition to the Lucidium lineup,” stated Scott Delay, NuVision CEO. “Film Times Five’ takes the native film rate of 24fps five with our exclusive Frame Forward Motion technology to produce seamless motion at 120Hz, thereby eliminating artifacts associated with 3:2 pulldown. FX5 will also offer a film purist mode that repeats each frame five times there-by creating a true film-like experience.” “All new Lucidium models include Frame Forward Motion Deep Black LCD panels with response times as low as 5ms, and Film Times Five frame-rate technology that displays each film frame five times on the display to create an effective 120fps rate while eliminating the need for 3:2 pulldown processing.” Last edited by HDTV1080P; 09-18-2008 at 07:46 AM. Reason: spelling |
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#538 |
Blu-ray Champion
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![]() The Sanyo PLV-Z3000 1080P LCD Front Projector has been added to the list "Features the industry's first 5:5 pull down projector with 120Hz Full HD panel - A super high contrast ratio of 65,000:1 for extraordinary black levels” According to the press release the Sanyo PLV-Z3000 uses 5:5 pulldown. 5:5 pulldown is a term in the industry that means each 24fps frame is repeated 5 times to reach 120HZ without interpolation of new frames. There is no professional review for this projector yet but according to the press release this is a true 5:5 puldlown projector. Quotes from the press release “The PLV-Z3000 is also the industry's first LCD projector to introduce 5:5 pull down, for the most frame accurate delivery of all source material.” “It also provides accurate reproduction of 24 fps source material,..” http://www.marketwatch.com/news/story/sanyo-introduces-new-ultra-high-contrast/story.aspx?guid=%7B6E6E1C53-B447-4755-855A-19F9BFF9AC0E%7D&dist=hppr |
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#539 |
Blu-ray Champion
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![]() The JVC LT-47X899 LCD TV and all other current 120HZ JVC LCD TV’s will not be added to the list The JVC 120HZ LCD flat panels are using an interpolation of new frames method and do not offer a true 5:5 pulldown option that allows consumers to experience 1080P/24 at the multiplies of the original frame rate. Hopefully future JVC LCD flat panels will offer true 5:5 pulldown for a more natural film quality look. Quote “However, unlike other 120Hz LCD TVs in my experience, the JVC offers no control to disable frame interpolation—it's on all the time.” “If the input signal is 60Hz, the TV inserts one new frame between each pair of actual frames; if the signal is 24Hz, the TV inserts four new frames between each pair of actual frames.” http://ultimateavmag.com/flatpaneldisplays/908jvc899/index.html Last edited by HDTV1080P; 09-30-2008 at 03:19 PM. |
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#540 |
Blu-ray Champion
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![]() The JVC LT-47X899 LCD and all other 120HZ JVC’s will not be added to the list Since JVC is using 3:2 pulldown and interpolation of new frames for 1080P/24 it will not be added to the list. Quote from November 2008 Home Theater magazine (Review on pages 72-74) Quote from page 73. “With the exception of Pioneer plasmas, all the flat-panel sets we’ve seen that accept a 1080P/24 source first convert the 1080P/24 input to 1080P/60 (by adding 3:2 pulldown) before displaying it. This JVC is no exception, It can’t take advantage of the judder-free benefits of 1080p/24 source material.” “The only problem is that frame interpolation often smooths out the motion in a way that makes film based programming look like it was shot on video. Most such sets offer a way to turn this feature off, with options such as On (with interpolated frames) and Off (with repeated frames). If you choose the repeated frames, you won’t see improvement in motion lag, but it will maintain the look of film. (You can’t turn the 120- Hz panel frame rate back to 60Hz because the higher rate is inherent in the design of a 120-Hz set.)" http://hometheatermag.com/lcds/jvc_lt-47x899_lcd_hdtv/ Last edited by HDTV1080P; 11-11-2008 at 07:16 PM. Reason: updated with weblink |
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