3D/2D Displays that support 3D & 2D & 24p at multiplies of the original frame rate

[HDTV1080P]

Originally Posted by JasonR

Doby,

I have never seen the set doing 24p @ 48Hz, so I don't know what it looks like. CNET confirms flicker on the 58 inch though...



http://reviews.cnet.com/flat-panel-t...l?tag=txt;page

It looks to be a seperate review from the 50 inch as well.

It would still be on my short list when picking a new TV though...

Thanks for the review link James R. I forget to check CNET. I have so many newsletters and magazine subscriptions and try to post as many as possible.

[HDTV1080P]

Panasonic Viera TH-58PZ800U review link

The Panasonic TH-58PZ800U like the rest of the 800U series offers true 1080P/24 refresh rates. When a 1080P/24 signal is received the Panasonic display will refresh that image at 48HZ if that option is turned on. The disappointing thing about the 800U and 850U series is there is a significant flicker on the screen that results in most people deciding to not use the 48HZ setting and only using 60HZ. When the brightness and contrast is lowered on the Panasonic the flciker is less noticeable.

Quote from the CNET review
"Video processing: Panasonic equipped this plasma with the capability to change its refresh rate, when fed a native 24-frame signal such as 1080p/24 from a Blu-ray player, from the standard 60Hz to 48Hz, to better match the 24-frame cadence and eliminate the 2:3 pull-down required for 60Hz displays. In theory that's good idea, but in practice the 48Hz refresh rate introduced significant flicker. The flicker was noticeable in every scene but increased in brighter areas, such as the frequent fields of cloud cover or bright skies. The benefit of somewhat smoother motion, without the subtle hitching characteristic of 2:3 pull-down, just wasn't worth the flicker for us, so we left the TV in standard 60Hz mode. It's worth noting that the Pioneer plasmas can refresh at 72Hz, which also avoids 2:3 pull-down but doesn't flicker."
http://reviews.cnet.com/flat-panel-tvs/panasonic-viera-th-58pz800u/4505-6482_7-33234548-2.html?tag=txt;page


Standard 1080P 60HZ versus 1080P/24
I have owned Panasonic products over the years and they make excellent products. As I have mentioned several times in this thread, just because a display does not have true 1080P/24 refresh rates does not mean a 60HZ display is bad. Having true 1080P/24 refresh rates is important feature especially for someone that watches a lot of BLU-RAY's. In terms of picture quality issues there are more important issues like, ANSI contrast ratios, black levels, shadow detail, and color accuracy when it comes to selecting a 720P or 1080P display. True 1080P/24 refresh rates improves the motion so camera pans are more smooth and the image looks more like film.
For example, over all the Panasonic displays when set at 60HZ refresh rate will have a better picture quality then most true 1080P/24 flat panels on the list. There are so many different factors when considering buying a display. This list is just a research link with documented information for people that are looking for the multiplies of the original frame method when watching BLU-RAY's.
According to CNET and other reviews the Panasonic 800U when viewed at 60HZ has the second best picture of any flat panel on the market. Only the Pioneer Plasma beats the Panasonic.
Quote
" The Panasonic TH-58PZ800U produces the second-best overall picture quality among flat-panel HDTVs we've tested this year. Its black level and color accuracy tested a notch below those of the Pioneer PRO-111FD--a 50-inch plasma that we assume matches the performance of the 60-inch PRO-151FD--and several notches above anything else we've seen in its class, including the THX-certified 60-inch LG 60PG60."

[dobyblue]

Originally Posted by JasonR

Doby,

I have never seen the set doing 24p @ 48Hz, so I don't know what it looks like.

Apparently, neither have most of the people who seem to be concerned about the filmic setting.

CNET confirms flicker on the 58 inch though...



http://reviews.cnet.com/flat-panel-t...l?tag=txt;page

It looks to be a seperate review from the 50 inch as well.

It doesn't appear to be a separate review at all, it looks like the exact same review with the model number changed.

I do not personally consider cNet's reviews to be worth the time it took to copy and paste them - and that's not a "new" opinion either, it has always been that way – my posting history reflects that.

Originally Posted by HDTV1080P

<snip>

Again I will ask, have you looked at the -800 and -850 series yourself? Do you bother to research the numerous forums that have -800 and -850 series owners that have no experience with flicker when using the 48Hz mode before you start posting stuff like “most users use the 60Hz mode”?

[JasonR]

Yeah. I don't consider CNET the best either, just offering up another opinion. The filmic look wouldn't even be a deciding factor for me when buying this TV, the fact it is one of the best TVs on the market would be though.

I am curious though why theaters and the 50 inch look filmic at 48Hz, but not the sizes larger.

[crackinhedz]

Doby, relax man.

I think you're making this way too serious of an issue. HDTV1080P is merely offering reviews of the set given from a couple sources that may or may not be flly credible. You always reference HD GURU, so did he.

This thread is turning into a big flame battle. It does not benefit anyone.

If anyone disagrees with something. Simply disagree. Do not turn it into a dispute.

[HDTV1080P]

Pioneer KURO PDP-5020FD (PC magazine review link)

The Pioneer plasmas are already on the list of true 1080P/24 displays. Here is another review from PC magazine. The cheapest 50 inch Pioneer PDP-5020FD received the editors choice award from PC magazine.

QUOTE
"LCD TVs outsell all other flat-panel HDTV sets by a huge margin, but the image quality from the new Pioneer KURO PDP-5020FD ($4,000 list) plasma may just give the competition a run for its money. The 50-inch set delivers the best picture contrast of any HDTV currently available, and its range of color reproduction and consistent color accuracy are a perfect match for today's highest-quality HD video material."
http://www.pcmag.com/article2/0,2817,2330711,00.asp

[dobyblue]

Quite a few of our members have bought their sets from Cleveland Plasma and I just asked the owner again about the flicker - he has a TH-58PZ800U and says, regarding the 48Hz mode, that he has no problems so far. Most other owners seem to share that sentiment.

Originally Posted by JasonR

Yeah. I don't consider CNET the best either, just offering up another opinion. The filmic look wouldn't even be a deciding factor for me when buying this TV, the fact it is one of the best TVs on the market would be though.

I am curious though why theaters and the 50 inch look filmic at 48Hz, but not the sizes larger.

The larger sizes may have less refresh time during frames. Particularly since those models came out AFTER the 50".

If they thought the 50" had too much of a blank between frames, they may have decreased it. Even most 50" owners don't seem to notice the flicker and those that do state in most cases that it does not detract from the viewing experience.

It is rare you'll find an owner that makes the same claims as the reviews.

[JasonR]

While I agree with CNETs reviews lacking, I don't think this is the same review with models changed...

50 inch processing -

We tested the Panasonic's "24p direct in" mode by setting it to 48Hz and switching our PS3 to 1080p/24 mode. After doing so, the first thing we noticed was significant flicker, which was most obvious in brighter areas of the picture, such as the overcast sky or sun-scorched desert hardpan, but was present throughout. The flicker made the image basically unwatchable, and we much preferred the look of standard 60Hz mode. If it weren't for the flicker, however, the 24p mode would be great, because it did make movement appear more natural, removing the hitching in motion associated with 60Hz's necessary 2:3 pull-down process. We feel most viewers will notice and object to the flicker enough to abandon the 48Hz setting, however.

http://reviews.cnet.com/flat-panel-t...l?tag=txt;page

58 inch processing -

Panasonic equipped this plasma with the capability to change its refresh rate, when fed a native 24-frame signal such as 1080p/24 from a Blu-ray player, from the standard 60Hz to 48Hz, to better match the 24-frame cadence and eliminate the 2:3 pull-down required for 60Hz displays. In theory that's good idea, but in practice the 48Hz refresh rate introduced significant flicker. The flicker was noticeable in every scene but increased in brighter areas, such as the frequent fields of cloud cover or bright skies. The benefit of somewhat smoother motion, without the subtle hitching characteristic of 2:3 pull-down, just wasn't worth the flicker for us, so we left the TV in standard 60Hz mode. It's worth noting that the Pioneer plasmas can refresh at 72Hz, which also avoids 2:3 pull-down but doesn't flicker.

http://reviews.cnet.com/flat-panel-t...l?tag=txt;page

My only problem with your stance is how on other sets you quote HDGURU, yet on this set you are saying the same sources are not correct.....

And if the 50 inch looks exactly how it is supposed to, filmic, why would they change it for the 58 inch????

This is one of the best TVs on the market, but your stance is like me saying that there are no issues with the Samsung 950 or Sony XBR8 and any issues produced by anyone else is invalid...

[ixlegitballinxl]

shouldnt the sony w3000 be on the list for 24fps???

[dobyblue]

Originally Posted by JasonR

My only problem with your stance is how on other sets you quote HDGURU, yet on this set you are saying the same sources are not correct.....

I'm not saying Gary is incorrect, only that he is most likely more susceptible to the flicker based on his viewing distance when conducting tests. You don't sit 6ft away from a 50" plasma when you run the tests, otherwise you can't read the results.

And if the 50 inch looks exactly how it is supposed to, filmic, why would they change it for the 58 inch????

I'm not saying they did, only that it's possible they could have decreased the off time in between refreshes. I haven't compared the two side by side and it seems to me that there is very little difference between owners of either one.

This is one of the best TVs on the market, but your stance is like me saying that there are no issues with the Samsung 950 or Sony XBR8 and any issues produced by anyone else is invalid...

If I was saying there were no issues with this TV, that might be an accurate analogy. If there were no issues it would score 1080/1080 for motion resolution, have 180 degree viewing angle and have infinite contrast.

[HDTV1080P]

Originally Posted by ixlegitballinxl

shouldnt the sony w3000 be on the list for 24fps???

At one time the W3000 series was on the list with a statement that further verification was needed or it will be removed. When the V3000 and W3000 were discontinued by Sony I moved the V3000 to the discontinued list since the PC magazine review claims the Sony V3000 is 48HZ for 1080P/24. I was never able to find documented proof that the W3000 is 48HZ so I decided to remove it from the list. That does not mean the W3000 is not 48HZ. At the time my sources were saying it was just like the V3000 but other sources were saying it was 60HZ only. Later on the list went to a more strict requirements for a display to be on the list and since I could not find out from Sony what the refresh rate was on the W3000 I removed it from the list. The items on the list when clicked on that have a documented review link are the most accurate items on the list.
https://forum.blu-ray.com/showpost.php?p=649294&postcount=378

When one goes to the movie theater, 35mm and 70mm film is not perfect and one can see a little bit of natural flicker at 48HZ. So far the Panasonic 800U and 850U reviews are the only flat panel reviews in the last two years that mention an "unwatchable flicker" at 48HZ. One interesting thing about the Sony V3000 is that the PC magazine review mentions that at 48HZ there is a little bit of vertical flicker, but no were in the review does it say it is unwatchable flicker like some of the Panasonic 800U and 850U reviews from CNET and HD GURO.
"Viewing examinations using 24p video material confirmed the KDL-46V3000 did reduce judder producing admirably smooth panning shots, however, the reduced refresh rate (48 Hz) did introduce additional flicker into some vertically orientated details as the camera panned.”
The Hitachi 48HZ Plasma Sound and Vision professional review does not mention any flicker issue at all and from the same Sound and Vision publication the Panasonic review on the 800U mentions " ignoring flicker".

https://forum.blu-ray.com/showpost.php?p=1232199&postcount=543

https://forum.blu-ray.com/showpost.php?p=1343086&postcount=594

[pgkool]

Originally Posted by pgkool

Thx HDTV1080P, that is why i was curious because i kno you can only do 5:5 with 120HZ. The 32lg70 spec sheet dose say it does 5:5, and I just called LG and the gentelman(who i dont think really knew what he was talking about because he said to jus take the number in HDMI, ex 60p and multiply by 2 to get the hz, which is not how tvs work) said the 32lg60 and 70 ARE infact 120hz.

Now the spec sheet for the 32lg60 does NOT show the values of its pull down methods.

That being said my tv is in the mail and as soon as i get it, that will be the first thing i test and i will post my results.

Thanks

hey I just got my 32lg70 in and im a little dissapointed to not find the TruMotion/RealCiniema option in the menu. I think this is not 120hz then. I just saw the post with the manual and I will check again as soon as i get some free time (Black Friday)

The LG rep said on the phone its deff 120 hz and if its not then I have "Proof" cuz the conversation was logged. Should i call and complain...what can they do for me?

[pgkool]

Originally Posted by HDTV1080P

I just double checked for like the 5th time that all the LG displays on the list are true 5:5 pulldown 120HZ displays including the 32LG60 and 32LG70 models. On page 81 of the official LG manual it mentions that all LG60 and LG70 series are true 5:5 pulldown 120HZ. Also in a proir professinal review post awhile ago it mentioned the true 1080P/24 feature for the LG60 series.

http://us.lge.com/download/product/file/1000004121/LG60_manual.pdf
Page 81
The LG displays are a real bargain I just wish they had better black levels and ANSI contrast ratios.

I dont mean to make u check 5+ times, i believe you are doing us a big favor making this list. I just want to help out and do my part to verifiy this. Is there any way I can check for true 120hz?

[HDTV1080P]

Originally Posted by pgkool

hey I just got my 32lg70 in and im a little dissapointed to not find the TruMotion/RealCiniema option in the menu. I think this is not 120hz then. I just saw the post with the manual and I will check again as soon as i get some free time (Black Friday)

The LG rep said on the phone its deff 120 hz and if its not then I have "Proof" cuz the conversation was logged. Should i call and complain...what can they do for me?

Thanks for the info. Sometimes I like to recheck information since things can change on the spec sheets. According to the LG instruction manual the 32 inch LG60 and LG70 on page 81 have 5:5 pulldown. If that 5:5 pulldown option is not in the LG menu like it mentions on page 81 then LG must have made a error printing up the manuals.
I am starting to think that perhaps the LG60 and LG70 32 inch models do not have the 5:5 pulldown option like LG claims in the manual. I think perhaps by mistake LG listed 5:5 pulldown for the 32 inch models.
If you check the spec sheet for the LG60 32 inch and LG70 32 inch they do not list "True Motion 120HZ" logo on the sheet like the rest of the displays. So that is evidence that they are not using 120HZ for the 32 inch models. But even though that 120HZ logo is not there the 32LG70 is listed on the official LG spec sheet as having 5:5 pulldown which means it has to be 120HZ unless LG made a error, which it appears they did. I have seen Samsung once and a while have errors on sepc sheets and it appears that LG might be making errors now also.
Pgkool, If we cannot trust manufactories manuals and spec sheets then hopefully the reviews are correct. I wish someone would make a BLU-RAY disc and hardware testing device so the average consumer could detect if 3:2 pulldown has been applied before reaching the screen.
Someone needs to make a trip to Best Buy or another retail store and check the LG60 and LG70 series to see if the 5:5 pulldown option that is listed on page 81 of the LG manual is really in the menu. My guess is all the LG60 and LG70 series have the 5:5 pulldown accept the 32 inch models.
If you wanted the 5:5 pulldown option and it is not in the menu then you could return the TV. Sorry this happen to you.

[HDTV1080P]

Originally Posted by pgkool

I dont mean to make u check 5+ times, i believe you are doing us a big favor making this list. I just want to help out and do my part to verifiy this. Is there any way I can check for true 120hz?

Also take a look at both pages 81-82 in the LG manual. It clearly mentions agaiin on page 82 that no interpolation or double frames are needed with Trumotion 120HZ. What LG is talking about on page 81-82 is clearly 5:5 pulldown for all the LG60 and LG70 models including the 32 inch models. If this feature is not in your LG70 32 inch that would be a big error on LG's part.
I am going to have to go find a LG60 or LG70 and play around with the menus to make sure the 32 inch models have this feature. Maybe the manual is outdated and the firmware in the LG changed. Since you own this TV what doe the printed manual say? Is the physical manaul for your TV the same as listed manual online? If the firmware changed you could have a diffrent menu with the 5:5 pulldown hidden somewhere else in the display.

[JasonR]

Originally Posted by dobyblue

I'm not saying Gary is incorrect, only that he is most likely more susceptible to the flicker based on his viewing distance when conducting tests. You don't sit 6ft away from a 50" plasma when you run the tests, otherwise you can't read the results.



I'm not saying they did, only that it's possible they could have decreased the off time in between refreshes. I haven't compared the two side by side and it seems to me that there is very little difference between owners of either one.



If I was saying there were no issues with this TV, that might be an accurate analogy. If there were no issues it would score 1080/1080 for motion resolution, have 180 degree viewing angle and have infinite contrast.

That makes sense and is a lot more clear when put that way. Your posts are some of the most insightful on the forums, hopefully no offense was taken while expressing other opinions....

[pgkool]

Originally Posted by HDTV1080P

Also take a look at both pages 81-82 in the LG manual. It clearly mentions agaiin on page 82 that no interpolation or double frames are needed with Trumotion 120HZ. What LG is talking about on page 81-82 is clearly 5:5 pulldown for all the LG60 and LG70 models including the 32 inch models. If this feature is not in your LG70 32 inch that would be a big error on LG's part.
I am going to have to go find a LG60 or LG70 and play around with the menus to make sure the 32 inch models have this feature. Maybe the manual is outdated and the firmware in the LG changed. Since you own this TV what doe the printed manual say? Is the physical manaul for your TV the same as listed manual online? If the firmware changed you could have a diffrent menu with the 5:5 pulldown hidden somewhere else in the display.

Well Below is the manual I got with the tv and it seems to be updated on pages 81 and 82. The 32in versions DO NOT include TruMotion. I found the RealCinema mode but not the TruMotion.

I am a little upset now as I purchaced the TV online and am pretty sure there not gonna take it back after I opened it, and then there is the loss of all that shipping cost... .

Ill call LG and see what they can do for me...


LINK: http://www.mediafire.com/?0kjtjwgbtik

[HDTV1080P]

Originally Posted by pgkool

Well Below is the manual I got with the tv and it seems to be updated on pages 81 and 82. The 32in versions DO NOT include TruMotion. I found the RealCinema mode but not the TruMotion.

I am a little upset now as I purchaced the TV online and am pretty sure there not gonna take it back after I opened it, and then there is the loss of all that shipping cost... .

Ill call LG and see what they can do for me...


LINK: http://www.mediafire.com/?0kjtjwgbtik

Thanks for the info , I would be upset also. I will remove the 32 inch displays from the list since most likely this only applies to the 32 inch models according to the updated manual you provided. It appears LG made an error when printing the older version of the manual but the same error was made on the spec sheet for the 32 inch LG70 when listing "5:5".

[HDTV1080P]

The LG 32LG60 and LG 32LG70 have been removed from the list since they are 60HZ only displays

LG 32LG60 (removed from list)
LG 32LG70 (removed from list)

When the LG 32LG60 and LG 32LG70 receive a 1080P/24 signal from a BLU-RAY player my understanding is they will refresh the image on the screen at 60HZ using a 3:2 pulldown process.
Originally the LG 32LG60 and LG 32LG70 were added to the list because the official LG instruction manual on pages 81-82 clearly mentioned that the displays were true 5:5 pulldown 120HZ models. Also the spec sheet for the LG 32LG70 mentioned 5:5 pulldown.

Official LG instruction manual link that lists all LG60's and LG70's as have 120HZ 5:5 pulldown including the 32 inch models(see page 81-82)

http://us.lge.com/download/product/file/1000004121/LG60_manual.pdf

Official LG PDF link that lists 5:5 pulldown for the LG 32LG70 (see page 2)

LG 32LG70

Here is a official updated LG instruction manual that mentions that the 32 inch LG60 and 32 inch LG70 do not have 120HZ with 5:5 pulldown (see page 81-82)

http://www.mediafire.com/?0kjtjwgbtik

Either LG stopped making LG 32LG60's and LG LG3270's with the 120HZ 5:5 pulldown feature in order to offer a 60HZ version of the display at a lower cost for the consumer or LG made an error when publishing the original instruction manual and spec sheet that is online. Most likely none of the LG 32LG60's or LG LG3270's have 120HZ with 5:5 pulldown and it was just an error that LG made in the original manual. LG prints a large 152 page manual for all of their LCD and Plasma screens. With one manual for all displays it is easy to make errors.

[HDTV1080P]

The LG 47LGX has been added to the list

LG 47LGX (added to list)

According to the new LG instruction manual link below on pages 81-82 the LG 47LGX officially has 5:5 pulldown with 120HZ refresh rate when a 1080P/24 signal is received.

LG 47LGX (1080P/24 correctly refreshed at 120HZ when Truemotion is off and Real Cinema is on)