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#621 |
Blu-ray Champion
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![]() The Sony KDL-46W4150 120HZ 5:5 pulldown 1080P LCD screen has been added to the list All Sony 120HZ LCD displays every made will display 1080P/24 BLU-RAY signals correctly at the multiplies of the original frame method when Motionflow/Motion Enhancer is turned off. The KDL-46W4150 has an on screen free TV guide which is a nice feature for people that do not own or rent a satellite receiver or digital cable box already. Full specs on the Sony KDL-46W4150 can be found on the following PDF sheet Sony KDL-46W4150 (1080P/24 correctly refreshed at 120HZ when Motion Enhancer is turned off) Last edited by HDTV1080P; 11-30-2008 at 06:03 PM. |
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#622 | |
Junior Member
Nov 2008
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Your link doesnt work, i think your gonna have to put the one i set up top. |
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#623 | |
Blu-ray Champion
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http://download303.mediafire.com/enn1zzsoz1jg/0kjtjwgbtik/eng.pdf But in 12-24 hours that link above most likely will change. Kind of like a dynamic IP address for attachments. One has to click on your original link first for it to always work do to the way media fire changes the attachment file directory every 12 hours or so. http://www.mediafire.com/?0kjtjwgbtik LG needs to update their online manual to the latest version and also change the spec sheet for the 32LG70 online. I wonder how many people went to the LG website and bought a 32LG60 or 32LG70 because the manual said 120HZ 5:5 pulldown on pages 81-82. Perhaps most consumers will not notice the LG error. Last edited by HDTV1080P; 12-01-2008 at 03:41 AM. |
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#624 |
Junior Member
Nov 2008
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Talking to LG themselves, they seem like they wont do anything for me. Wat bad service...
Anyone have any ideas? Isnt this false advertisement if the LG rep told me it does have that feature? |
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#625 | |
Blu-ray Champion
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LG does need to change the instruction manual and product spec sheet online so they have correct information. It is false information and unethical to list a TV as 120HZ 5:5 pulldown when the TV really is 60HZ 3:2 pulldown. Someone at LG just did a typo that most consumers would not even notice. Most people do not read 152 page instruction manuals and would be happy with 60HZ 3:2 pulldown since they have been watching it for years. This is a key film quality feature missing from the TV even if it only offers a minor improvement during camera pans and fast moving objects. Last edited by HDTV1080P; 12-01-2008 at 05:12 PM. |
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#626 | |
Junior Member
Nov 2008
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Thankyou for the advise! Well after long talks with LG and them being practically USELESS and very non-customer oriented I called the order company, Vanns.com. I dont think i will buy from LG again because there customer service is horrible. Vanns accepted to take the tv back becuase they have a great return policy, but did not pay for return shipping at first because there site does not say 120hz(side note there site does say 120hz for the 32lg60). I also found that this tv has 3 HDMI ports and not 4 as advertised on there site and seen in all the pictures in spec sheets and therefore they decided to ultimatly pay for my shipping back. Vanns.com is a great store, great customer service. LG...i wont look back. Since youv been doing this for a while, i would like to ask for your expert advise, what TV's would you recommend? I want something small 32in atleast but not too much bigger then 46 and I would like 1080p. Im looking to spend under $1000 unless im persuaded otherwise. Should I stick to Sony, there rather expencive? I dont think i can get a 120hz tv under 1K. Thanks Last edited by pgkool; 12-02-2008 at 02:15 PM. |
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#627 | |
Blu-ray Champion
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Good news is that Vanns is taking the display back and even paying for return shipping. Many years ago I ordered from Vanns.com and also had a good experience with them double boxing items, etc. I usually recommend Pioneer Plasma due to the high quality and the fact that every 1080P display every made by Pioneer properly displays 1080P/24 at 72HZ. Of course the problem is the cheapest Pioneer is around $2,400 mail order for a 50 inch. The only 5:5 pulldown 120HZ display currently on the market for under $1,000 is the LG 37LG60. If you could extend the budget to around $1,300-$1,400 you can get a Sony or Samsung 120HZ that offers true 5:5 pulldown. Both Samsung and Sony make some of the best LCD screens. Some times Sony has a better quality picture on some models while other times Samsung has a better quality picture. The Samsung's are a better value for the money. I could recommended a older Samsung model for around $1,250 but it does have issues and problems with video processing,etc. For $1,429.97 with free shipping you can purchase an excellent Samsung LN40A750. This display has excellent reviews with better picture quality then the Sony display accept for the new Sony XBR8. Vanns has the 40 inch Samsung LN40A750 for only $1,429.97 with free shipping. http://www.vanns.com/shop/servlet/item/features/462045735/samsung-ln40a750?s_c=site_search If $1,429.97 is more then you want to spend there is the 650 and 630 series Samsungs but the 750 is a lot better quality with less 120HZ video processing bugs. If you get a chance read this review on the Samsung LN52A750. The 46 inch and 40 inch 750 models have the exact same specs. https://forum.blu-ray.com/showpost.php?p=991781&postcount=456 Last edited by HDTV1080P; 12-02-2008 at 06:51 PM. Reason: grammar |
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#628 | |
Super Moderator
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http://www.newegg.com/Product/Produc...82E16889187084 You don't need 120Hz with a plasma and it's very unlikely you'd notice the difference between judder-free 1080p24 and 1080p24 shown at 60Hz. |
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#629 |
Junior Member
Nov 2008
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time to downsize i geuss. I think i might say bye to 120 hz.
Im looking at the sharp aquos LC42D65U($700+tax) or Sharp Aquos 32D64 ($400+tax) anything bad about sharp, reviews seem there aquos series are good That plasma looks tempting, but 42 in...ill have to sit on that for a bit... |
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#630 | |
Blu-ray Champion
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If you are looking for a TV under $1000 then your choices will be limited to 60HZ only displays unless you go with the 120HZ 37 inch LG for $889. BLU-RAY still looks real good at 60HZ. Since you will be going with a 60HZ display most likely then the Panasonic TH-42PZ85U that dobyblue recommended would be ideal for under $1,000. Also depending on your seating distance you might not notice the difference between a 720P and 1080P unless you go for a 50 inch. The higher the resolution on a TV the closer you need to seat to see the fine detail. Also on a smaller screen TV the closer you need to seat to see the detail. Here is a viewing distance calculator that is useful http://myhometheater.homestead.com/viewingdistancecalculator.html Last edited by HDTV1080P; 12-03-2008 at 05:39 PM. |
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#631 |
Blu-ray Champion
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![]() Low cost Pioneer and Hitachi Plasma's with true film quality 1080P/24 refresh rates True 1080P/24 plasma displays that properly refresh BLU-RAY's images at 72HZ or 48HZ just like a film projector are getting to be very cheap in price. A 72HZ Pioneer PDP-5020FD 50 inch plasma can be purchased from mail order companies for as low as $2,149. http://reviews.cnet.com/flat-panel-tvs/pioneer-kuro-pdp-5020fd/4014-6482_7-33002523.html?tag=rtcol;shop Pioneer Kuro PDP-5020FD 50” Plasma (72HZ) A 48HZ Hitachi P50S602 50 inch plasma can be purchased for as low as $1,249. http://www.fotoconnection.com/p90423-hitachi-p50s602-50-1080p-plasma-hdtv-power-swivel-stand.html Hitachi P50S602 (48HZ Plasma) Last edited by HDTV1080P; 12-04-2008 at 01:01 AM. |
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#632 |
Active Member
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Do sets that display 24p require a refresh rate of 120Hz? I was under the impression that sets that have 60Hz refresh rates apply pulldown to material encoded at 24fps to display properly.
![]() http://www.futureshop.ca/catalog/pro...72D327C167591A Futureshop claims this set displays 1080/24p, is this correct or just a misprint? Thanks. |
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#633 | |
Blu-ray Champion
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The first consumer flat panel 1080P display on the market that accepted a 1080P/24 input was the Pioneer Elite PRO-FHD1 Plasma back in 2006. Also around that time there were also high-end front projectors that had 1080P/24 inputs. In the early days all displays that had a 1080P/24 input correctly refreshed the image on the screen just like a film projector in the theater using the multiplies of the original frame method. To get the benefits of 1080P/24 with the smooth camera pans and film quality look one needs a display that refreshes the image at multiplies of 24 fps (48HZ, 72HZ, 96HZ,120HZ, etc). The problem is that many manufactories to save on cost started making low cost 1080P displays that had a 1080P/24 input only that uses a 3:2 pulldown process to convert the image to 60HZ. There is no major diffrence between a 1080P/24 input and a 1080P/60 input if the display uses a 3:2 pulldown process to convert the image to 60HZ or 120HZ. Some 120HZ displays have a 5:5 pulldown mode that properly display 24fps. Usually on a 60HZ display one can not tell the diffrence between 1080P/24 or 1080P/60 unless the 3:2 pulldown process is better in either the TV or BLU-RAY player. The purpose of 1080P/24 is to eliminate 3:2 pulldown and 60HZ refresh rates, in reality many companies use 1080P/24 as a marketing buzz word to attract consumers to buy their 60HZ products. When looking at 60HZ displays having a 1080P/60 input is important, having a 1080P/24 input on a 60HZ display has no real advantage. Last edited by HDTV1080P; 12-08-2008 at 09:43 PM. |
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#634 | |
Active Member
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#635 |
Blu-ray Champion
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THE LG 50PG60 Plasma and all other current LG Plasma's will not be added to the list since they are 60HZ only.
Quote taken from page 74 of January 2009 Home Theater magazine "While its compatible with 1080p/24 sources, the LG first converts them to 60 fps before display. This negates the advantages of 24-fps program material, which has the potential to eliminate the artifacts associated with 3:2 pulldown." Last edited by HDTV1080P; 12-09-2008 at 02:05 AM. |
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#636 |
Blu-ray Champion
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![]() Sony BRAVIA KDL-46XBR8 LCD 1080P Flat Panel (January 2009 Home Theater magazine review) The Sony XBR8 series is still the best LCD flat screens available in terms of picture quality followed in second place by the more affordable Samsung 950s. When Plasma enters the equation, the Pioneer Kuro Plasma beats any LCD screen in terms of overall picture quality. All 3 sets properly handle 1080P/24 signals. The following are word for word quotes from the January 2009 Home Theater magazine review by Thomas J. Norton (pages 54-56) "In one respect, the KDL-46XBR8 differs from most other 120Hz sets. When it receives a 24-fps input, it keeps it as a multiple of 24 fps all the way to the screen. That is, it repeats the original frame five times (or interpolates as needed) to bring it directly up to 120 Hz. This process is called 5:5 pulldown. Most other 120-Hz sets first convert 1080p/24 inputs to 1080p/60 before taking them up to 120Hz, which adds 3:2 pulldown and throws away the advantages of a 24-fps source." "Sony calls its 120-Hz process Motionflow 120Hz PRO. When it's off, the Sony produces the extra frame (s) it needs to bring the source up to 120Hz by simply repeating frames. When Motionflow is on (in one of three increasingly active settings), the Sony interpolates the added frames from the prior and following frames, which smoothes out the motion. However, like all such systems Motionflow has the side effect of making film-based material look like it was shot on video. Some viewers like this soap-opera look; many (including me) do not. The feature works as advertised, but I left it off for all my tests and serious viewing. The set's inherent motion lag, without Motionflow, didn't bother me --at least not enough to opt for film-as-video compromise." Conclusion "If you get the impression that I'm enthusiastic about LCD sets with LED local dimming, you're right. The three sets I've reviewed to date that include this feature, including this Sony, offer the kind of black-level performance I never expected to see from an LCD design. But blacks alone won't do it. A premium set must have accurate color, sharp but unexaggerated detail, and good video processing. The Sony slipped a bit on the processing side in specialized tests. Also, its off-axis performance was disappointing, as it is in all LCDs we've tested. But viewed from on-or near-center, its color quality and subjective detail are as good as any set I've yet tested. The only downside here is its price; $5,000 is a hefty piece of change for a 46-inch set. (Samsung's 46 inch local-dimming model, the LN46A950, lists for a less lofty but still pricey $3,500.) Still, for that price, you get bleeding-edge technology and state-of-the-art performance in an LCD. In a couple of years, I predict that LED backlighting and local dimming will make their way into popular-priced sets as well. But that's then. Now is now. If your budget allows, there are only three lines of flat-panel sets you need to consider today: the Pioneer KURO's, the Samsung 950s, and the Sony XBR8s. They all have undeniable strengths. If your choice is the Sony, you won't get an argument from me." http://hometheatermag.com/lcds/sony_...dtv/index.html Last edited by HDTV1080P; 12-31-2008 at 12:29 AM. Reason: updated with weblink |
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#637 |
Blu-ray Champion
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![]() All Mitsubishi LCD flat panels have been removed from the list do to new evidence in the January 2009 Home Theater magazine that they add 3:2 pulldown when a 1080P/24 signal is received Removed from list The Mitsubishi LCD panels were originally placed on the list since the Ultimate A/V magazine review mentioned the repeating of frames method for 1080P/24 when Smooth Motion is turned off. QUOTE " You can turn this interpolation off, in which case frames are repeated as necessary to get to 120 per second." http://ultimateavmag.com/flatpaneldisplays/mitsubishi_lt-52149_lcd_tv/index.html Also according to the following CNET review quote the Mitsubishi properly displays 1080p/24. Quote " We also checked out how the Mitsubishi handled a 1080p/24 source by setting our PS3 in that mode and turning off the TV's Smooth 120 dejudder processing. The result was the best we'd seen so far from the set. Like the Sony and the Samsung, the 120Hz Mitsubishi displayed the 24-frame source faithfully, with standard film judder but without the characteristic extra hitching motion caused by the 2:3 pull-down process (which isn't necessary with 120Hz TVs displaying 24-frame content). Compared with the Panasonic, which we set at the standard 60Hz mode, the pan over the aircraft carrier, for example, looked more natural and smoother (in a good way!) on the 120Hz LCDs than on the Panasonic plasma. Of course, to most viewers the difference will be subtle, but for people with Blu-ray players who pay attention, it's worth it. " http://reviews.cnet.com/flat-panel-tvs/mitsubishi-lt-46148/4505-6482_7-32924014-2.html?tag=txt;page January 2009 review of the Mitsubishi LT-52149 (pages 82-84) Thomas J Norton who is known as one of the best in-depth reviewers with many years of experience just recently mentioned that the Mitsubishi sets adds 3:2 pulldown to 1080P/24 sources and then the display applies a dejudder algorthim to compensate for the fact that 3:2 pulldown was added earlier on. So technically based on this new evidence from Thomas J Norton's in-depth review the Mitsubishi displays add 3:2 pulldown to 1080P/24 sources like BLU-RAY. Any display that adds 3:2 pulldown to 1080P/24 signals does not qualify to be on the list. Quotes from pages 82-83 "While the set accepts a 1080p/24 input, it does not keep it in that form (or direct multiplies of 24 fps) all the way to the display. Instead, it first converts 1080p/24 to 1080p/60 by adding 3:2 pulldown (which eliminates the main benefits of 24-fps source). To match the panels 120-Hz refresh rate, it then further converts the signal to 1080p/120." "With Smooth 120Hz Film Motion off, the set simply displays each 1080p/60 frame twice. Mitsubishi also applies a dejudder algorithm to film-based sources. The company designed the latter to compensate for the fact that the set's video processing does not eliminate 3:2 pulldown when it's present in the program material. It actually adds 3:2 pulldown when it isn't there (on 24-fps material, as noted earlier)." I do not know how long I will keep updating this list since it is very time consuming and I get tired of seeing displays that were on the list removed from the list. This 1080P/24 issue is getting to be so complicated that professional reviews from different publications contradict each other. One review I read a while ago mentioned that the Sony 120HZ displays were not true 5:5 pulldown. After further research I discovered the person doing the review did not turn off the motion enhancer which adds interpolation of new frames so that review on the Sony was not valid for posting since it had wrong info. Sometimes I get frustrated with this 1080P/24 feature since it can be so time consuming researching the information. There needs to be a industry standard where displays that do not use 3:2 pulldown for 1080/24 signals get a special logo called "True Cinema refresh rates" or some other labeling. If there was labeling for true 24fps refresh rates there would be no need for a list. The way things are going lately sometimes I feel the only true 1080p/24 flat panels that I know for sure that correctly handle 1080P/24 are the Pioneer displays. Of course Sony 120HZ displays all handle 1080P/24 correctly according to several reviews and in theory every other display on the list handles 1080P/24 correctly. At least with Pioneer every 1080P display every made by the company refreshes the image at 72HZ with no 3:2 pulldown. The 32 inch LG's were dropped from the list not too long ago, now all the Mitsubishi displays are gone, hopefully no other brand is next. This list is just a general research guide and displays will end up being added and removed from the list as more information is learned. Last edited by HDTV1080P; 12-09-2008 at 06:50 AM. |
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#638 |
Super Moderator
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I would disagree with that; if your TV does a better 3:2 conversion than your player does, which is a very real possibility, having the ability to handshake with a 1080p24 signal is a big advantage.
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#639 | |
Blu-ray Champion
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"Usually on a 60HZ display one can not tell the diffrence between 1080P/24 or 1080P/60 unless the 3:2 pulldown process is better in either the TV or BLU-RAY player." ![]() |
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#640 |
Blu-ray Champion
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![]() Marantz VP-11S2 1080P DLP Front Projector (December 2008 review link) Here is a new December 2008 Home Theater magazine review link on the top of the line Marantz VP-11S2 projectors that cost $18,000 with a long throw lens and $15,000 with a short throw lens. I have updated the link on the list so it points to this new review. There are now two professional reviews that mentions that this front projector refreshes 1080P/24 material at 48HZ. 1. Widescreen Review link https://forum.blu-ray.com/showpost.php?p=884062&postcount=441 2. Home Theater magazine review link http://hometheatermag.com/frontprojectors/marantz_vp-11s2_dlp_projector/index1.html Quotes from Kris Deering's review at Home Theater Magazine "The VP-11S2 accepts all NTSC and ATSC video signals, including 1080p/24, with no issues at all. With a 24p signal, the unit displays the signal at 48 hertz, which eliminates the judder that’s commonly associated with the 2:3 pulldown process used for 60p." "Once again, Marantz uses a custom Konica/Minolta lens and a rugged chassis that is both heavy and elegant. The lens is available in two different configurations: short-throw and long-throw (at extra cost). For this review, I received the long-throw lens. Marantz recently announced that it has implemented a new lens coating. It claims the coating will increase the already stellar ANSI contrast performance to 1,000:1, which is higher than any projector I’m aware of. Marantz has used this coating on its long-throw lenses, including the one on our review sample, for some time. However, it recently incorporated it into the short-throw lens as well. If you’re looking at the short-throw version, you should confirm that your sample has the new coating." "Marantz employs Texas Instruments’ latest 1,920-by-1,080 DarkChip 4 DLP chip. It boasts a 30-percent increase in specified chip-level contrast performance. The VP-11S2 uses handpicked Digital Micromirror Devices (DMDs) for the best performance. I’ve heard from several other projector manufacturers that there are indeed varying degrees of quality when it comes to DMDs. The color wheel is also a bit different. You can adjust it for speed, with the option of 4x, 5x, or 6x. This helps viewers with sensitivity to RBE (rainbow effect) from color separation." Conclusion "Marantz has lowered the price of its flagship design, but its made clear improvements in its overall performance. The level of detail the VP-11S2 delivered was staggering; you’d be hard-pressed to find better shadow detail anywhere. Although Marantz needs to put some refinement into its accuracy for both color and clipping, it will still be tough to find a better image out there." Last edited by HDTV1080P; 12-09-2008 at 09:50 PM. |
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