This list only contains US models since the magazines I subscribe to and sources are USA based. The Samsung 100HZ international models will convert 50HZ PAL to 100HZ in order to reduce LCD motion blur issues. Now when it comes to 1080P/24 signals I am not sure how the international Samsung 100HZ models handle it. There is a strong possibility that when the motion feature is turned off that maybe the Samsungs might do a 4:4 pulldown of 96HZ and bypass 2:2 50HZ PAL pulldown and 3:2 NTSC 60HZ pulldown. I do not know for sure and this is only a guess.
Thanks for your reply. I will try to find out more from Samsung themselves. Really can't find anybody in a store that understands at all what 3:2 or 4:4 or 5:5 pull down means.
All they ever can say is Yes, it supports 24fps but then they have no idea what the TV actually does after it receives a 24fps signal...
Every Pioneer 1080P display every made including your model will display 1080P/24 correctly using 3:3 pulldown regardless of the menu settings. The Pioneer's automatically refresh at 72HZ for 1080P/24. Now if you plan on watching a lot of 480I DVD or 1080I cable TV programming that is film based then place the Pioneer in the advanced mode so that it will do a reverse 3:2 pulldown for film based programs and display them at 72HZ.
The Pure Cinema menu still confuses me. I have noticed that when anything other than blu-ray is on and Advanced is selected, it dims the picture slightly. Why is this. I have been leaving Pure Cinema Off dor all viewing, except blu-ray. For Blu-ray, I select Advanced. Am I way off here?
The Pure Cinema menu still confuses me. I have noticed that when anything other than blu-ray is on and Advanced is selected, it dims the picture slightly. Why is this. I have been leaving Pure Cinema Off dor all viewing, except blu-ray. For Blu-ray, I select Advanced. Am I way off here?
Not sure why that is. Perhaps for some reason when doing a reverse 3:2 pulldown for 480I and 1080I material the processing dims the picture a little. You can compensate by adjusting the picture calibration settings when not using BLU-RAY's. BLU-RAY should automatically display at 3:3 pulldown 72HZ regardless of any menu settings on the Pioneer's.
The Sony XBR8 series is still the best LCD flat screens available in terms of picture quality followed in second place by the more affordable Samsung 950s. When Plasma enters the equation, the Pioneer Kuro Plasma beats any LCD screen in terms of overall picture quality. All 3 sets properly handle 1080P/24 signals.
The following are word for word quotes from the Home Theater magazine review web link by Thomas J. Norton
"In one respect, the KDL-46XBR8 differs from most other 120Hz sets. When it receives a 24-fps input, it keeps it as a multiple of 24 fps all the way to the screen. That is, it repeats the original frame five times (or interpolates as needed) to bring it directly up to 120 Hz. This process is called 5:5 pulldown. Most other 120-Hz sets first convert 1080p/24 inputs to 1080p/60 before taking them up to 120Hz, which adds 3:2 pulldown and throws away the advantages of a 24-fps source."
"Sony calls its 120-Hz process Motionflow 120Hz PRO. When it's off, the Sony produces the extra frame (s) it needs to bring the source up to 120Hz by simply repeating frames. When Motionflow is on (in one of three increasingly active settings), the Sony interpolates the added frames from the prior and following frames, which smoothes out the motion. However, like all such systems Motionflow has the side effect of making film-based material look like it was shot on video. Some viewers like this soap-opera look; many (including me) do not. The feature works as advertised, but I left it off for all my tests and serious viewing. The set's inherent motion lag, without Motionflow, didn't bother me --at least not enough to opt for film-as-video compromise."
Conclusion
"If you get the impression that I'm enthusiastic about LCD sets with LED local dimming, you're right. The three sets I've reviewed to date that include this feature, including this Sony, offer the kind of black-level performance I never expected to see from an LCD design. But blacks alone won't do it. A premium set must have accurate color, sharp but unexaggerated detail, and good video processing. The Sony slipped a bit on the processing side in specialized tests. Also, its off-axis performance was disappointing, as it is in all LCDs we've tested. But viewed from on-or near-center, its color quality and subjective detail are as good as any set I've yet tested. The only downside here is its price; $5,000 is a hefty piece of change for a 46-inch set. (Samsung's 46 inch local-dimming model, the LN46A950, lists for a less lofty but still pricey $3,500.) Still, for that price, you get bleeding-edge technology and state-of-the-art performance in an LCD. In a couple of years, I predict that LED backlighting and local dimming will make their way into popular-priced sets as well. But that's then. Now is now. If your budget allows, there are only three lines of flat-panel sets you need to consider today: the Pioneer KURO's, the Samsung 950s, and the Sony XBR8s. They all have undeniable strengths. If your choice is the Sony, you won't get an argument from me."
Wow, you where even shorted one HDMI port according to the LG specs. I wonder what other errors LG made. No 120HZ, no 5:5 pulldown, and now no 4 HDMI inputs like LG mentions.
Good news is that Vanns is taking the display back and even paying for return shipping. Many years ago I ordered from Vanns.com and also had a good experience with them double boxing items, etc.
I usually recommend Pioneer Plasma due to the high quality and the fact that every 1080P display every made by Pioneer properly displays 1080P/24 at 72HZ. Of course the problem is the cheapest Pioneer is around $2,400 mail order for a 50 inch. The only 5:5 pulldown 120HZ display currently on the market for under $1,000 is the LG 37LG60. If you could extend the budget to around $1,300-$1,400 you can get a Sony or Samsung 120HZ that offers true 5:5 pulldown. Both Samsung and Sony make some of the best LCD screens. Some times Sony has a better quality picture on some models while other times Samsung has a better quality picture. The Samsung's are a better value for the money. I could recommended a older Samsung model for around $1,250 but it does have issues and problems with video processing,etc. For $1,429.97 with free shipping you can purchase an excellent Samsung LN40A750. This display has excellent reviews with better picture quality then the Sony display accept for the new Sony XBR8.
If $1,429.97 is more then you want to spend there is the 650 and 630 series Samsungs but the 750 is a lot better quality with less 120HZ video processing bugs.
If you get a chance read this review on the Samsung LN52A750. The 46 inch and 40 inch 750 models have the exact same specs. https://forum.blu-ray.com/showpost.php?p=991781&postcount=456
you can go to amazon and enter LNT4069FX. THESE TV'S ARE ON THE LIST OF 1080/24P CAPABLE sets that are 120 hz and do a 5:5 pulldown. they are on the list as no longer in production. i got 1 in november for $998. close to christmas had a deal for $ 949 + free shipping. came double boxed-very happy.
This list only contains US models since the magazines I subscribe to and sources are USA based. The Samsung 100HZ international models will convert 50HZ PAL to 100HZ in order to reduce LCD motion blur issues. Now when it comes to 1080P/24 signals I am not sure how the international Samsung 100HZ models handle it. There is a strong possibility that when the motion feature is turned off that maybe the Samsungs might do a 4:4 pulldown of 96HZ and bypass 2:2 50HZ PAL pulldown and 3:2 NTSC 60HZ pulldown. I do not know for sure and this is only a guess.
I had a conversation with the guy at one of the higher end shops where I bought my speakers. He also does a lot of work with projectors and was very knowledgable about HT systems. Though he does not sell Samsung, he said that it does 4:4 pulldown at 96hz and that you won't find 5:5 on the Singapore products.
But then I became more interested in the projectors he demonstrated. It seems once I get to 46" and above, projectors become a cheaper alternative for 1080P display and at least the BENQ that he was running at the time was doing 4:4
So since my TV does just 60 HZ that is probably why the 24 P option is grayed out? What do you guys mean when you say force it to go 24 P
Some BLU-RAY players have an auto mode, off mode, and an on mode (also known as force) for 24fps. If the TV does not work in the auto mode with HDMI handshaking then there is the on mode which is known as force. On mode just sends 24fps without communicating with the display, one still needs to have a display that accepts 1080P/24 in order to use a on/force mode or there will be no signal received by the display. Depending on the BLU-RAY player these modes are called different names. If 1080P/24 is grayed out in the BLU-RAY player while playing a BLU-RAY movie or in setup mode it is because the BLU-RAY player has not received information from the display that it accepts that resolution or frame rate. Hitting a info button on a display will inform one of the signal coming in and frame rate on most models and brands.
Hey, long time reader, first time poster. I'd just like to start off by saying, this is an awesome website, and this is a great thread. It's pretty much the only coherent source of information regarding 1080/24p. After a lot of reading, I decided to take a cost-effective route to the problem, and bought myself a Samsung LN46A750 and hooked it up to a Panasonic DMP-BD35 blu-ray player. So now I've verified that by high def discs are playing at a true, unaltered, just as they were intended 1080/24p, and they look great! But I'm wondering... whenever I put in a DVD and "upscale" it to 1080p, it comes out to the TV as a regular old 1080/60p signal, meaning that I'm not getting a true 24 fps film from my DVD's. Is it even possible to output a DVD in 1080/24p, or do you need a special player, or am I just not doing something right with my Panasonic DMP-BD35? Are DVD's hard encoded with the 3:2 pulldown already on the disc? I suppose it's not a big deal either way, as long as my blu-rays are playing at 1080/24p I'll be fine... but I'd like to know if I can get a true 24 fps off a DVD with my current setup...
edited to add: I just figured it out. The panasonic player *can* output DVD's at 1080/24p, but in the case of a DVD, the 24 fps option has to be manually selected every time you put a new disc in the player. Annoying... but not a big deal.
Last edited by blackrazor; 12-31-2008 at 10:01 AM.
Not sure why that is. Perhaps for some reason when doing a reverse 3:2 pulldown for 480I and 1080I material the processing dims the picture a little. You can compensate by adjusting the picture calibration settings when not using BLU-RAY's. BLU-RAY should automatically display at 3:3 pulldown 72HZ regardless of any menu settings on the Pioneer's.
That may be it. I have my HD DVR set to display 1080i only. Do you think it would be fixed if I set it to 720p only? If that fixes it, would you recommend leaving PC in Advanced all the time?
Yeah my BD 55 does not have that option, only on or off, I have no other isssues, do you think it could be a cale problem?
I got this off another thread regarding my TV "Yes it does, at least with my Dish Network HD DVR. Pressing info shows 1920x1080 @24hz while the movie is playing."
I have tried blu rays and dvds, Maybe I am trying to select it wrong, I how do you select it once the dvd is in, the only way I know to get to teh menu is by going to the blu screen "hitting stop" and then secleting set up. or not haveing a disc in a all and hiting set up. thanks a lot
That may be it. I have my HD DVR set to display 1080i only. Do you think it would be fixed if I set it to 720p only? If that fixes it, would you recommend leaving PC in Advanced all the time?
If the source material on the HD DVR is 1080I then the picture will be better quality if left at 1080I for the HD DVR output. Also my understanding is that the Pioneer's will not do a reverse 3:2 pulldown for progressive sources like 720P. Reverse 3:2 pulldown is for 480I and 1080I film based material only. Non film based material on 480I and 1080I will be displayed at 60HZ since the advanced mode will not detect any 3:2 pulldown. All non 1080P sources are upconverted to either 1080P 60HZ or 1080P 72HZ on the Pioneer depending on menu settings and if the material has interlaced 3:2 pulldown. Of course 1080P/24 BLU-RAY movies will always display at 1080P 72HZ mode on the Pioneer 1080P plasma's regardless of menu settings.
Yeah my BD 55 does not have that option, only on or off, I have no other isssues, do you think it could be a cale problem?
I got this off another thread regarding my TV "Yes it does, at least with my Dish Network HD DVR. Pressing info shows 1920x1080 @24hz while the movie is playing."
I have tried blu rays and dvds, Maybe I am trying to select it wrong, I how do you select it once the dvd is in, the only way I know to get to teh menu is by going to the blu screen "hitting stop" and then secleting set up. or not haveing a disc in a all and hiting set up. thanks a lot
It is awesome that the Panasonic DMP-BD35 and DMP-BD55 BLU-RAY players offer reverse 3:2 pulldown for film based 480I DVD's. Those Panasonics are currently the only standalone BLU-RAY players that upconvert 480I DVD's to 1080P/24 that I know of. All the rest of the BLU-RAY players upconvert 480I DVD's to 1080P/60. There are some 1080P displays on the market that do a reverse 3:2 pulldown also. The problem is that the Panasonic BLU-RAY players listed above do not have a auto detect mode for performing reverse 3:2 pulldown for 480I DVD's. One has to manually turn the feature on from the menu while the disc is playing for every DVD that is inserted. Hopefully future models will have a auto mode since it is a hassle to have to turn the feature on every time a 480I DVD is played. For those that own a Pioneer or other display that automatically does a reverse 3:2 pulldown for 480I DVD's one does not need to have a BLU-RAY player with the same feature.
The LG 50PG60 PLASMA will not be added to the list since it uses 3:2 pulldown for 1080P/24
Quote
"While it’s compatible with 1080p/24 sources, the LG first converts them to 60 fps before display. This negates the advan- tages of 24-fps program material, which has the potential to elim- inate the artifacts associated with 3:2 pulldown."
If the source material on the HD DVR is 1080I then the picture will be better quality if left at 1080I for the HD DVR output. Also my understanding is that the Pioneer's will not do a reverse 3:2 pulldown for progressive sources like 720P. Reverse 3:2 pulldown is for 480I and 1080I film based material only. Non film based material on 480I and 1080I will be displayed at 60HZ since the advanced mode will not detect any 3:2 pulldown. All non 1080P sources are upconverted to either 1080P 60HZ or 1080P 72HZ on the Pioneer depending on menu settings and if the material has interlaced 3:2 pulldown. Of course 1080P/24 BLU-RAY movies will always display at 1080P 72HZ mode on the Pioneer 1080P plasma's regardless of menu settings.
Does all this change if my Pio Elite is a 768p model? I am wondering if the dimming of the picture in Advanced mode is due to this. Any ideas?
Four High-end 1080P Flat Panels Face off HEAD TO HEAD (Feb 2009 Home Theater Magazine)
Starting on page 36 of the February 2009 Home Theater magazine and ending on page 52 is a very in depth face off article called "Face off at the HDTV Corral". This very in depth article had a panel of several professional reviewers that rated the 4 different brands of high-end displays in terms of blacks, shadow detail, color, resolution, value, and the ultimate final score of "OVERALL PERFORMACE".
The 3 best HDTV's on the market when it comes to true 1080P/24 refresh rates is the following displays: 1. Pioneer PRO-111FD (The absolute best overall picture quality with true 1080P/24 feature) $5,000 2. Sony KDL-55XBR8 (The second best over all picture quality with true 1080P/24 feature) $7,000 3. Samsung LN55A950 (Third best over all picture quality with true 1080P/24 feature) $5,000
The interesting thing is that during the face off according to the Home Theater magazine review the Panasonic VIERA TH-50PZ800U Plasma had a noticeable flicker that was so annoying to watch at 48HZ that the Panasonic display needed to be placed in the 60HZ 3:2 pulldown mode. Even though the Panasonic 48HZ mode could not be used for the face off, overall the Panasonic had a slightly better picture quality compared to the Samsung LN55A950 in the area of shadow detail and resolution. The Samsung LN55A950 beat the Panasonic in terms of deeper black levels. The Panasonic TH-50PZ800U is only $2,500 which is half the cost of the $5,000 Samsung. That is an excellent value. It is too bad the important true 1080P/24 48HZ refresh rate feature could not be used on the Panasonic due to the annoying flicker issue. Hopefully the new coming soon 2009 Panasonic Plasma models will not have this flicker issue.
Official Home Theater Face off Results 1. Pioneer PRO-111FD (The absolute best overall picture quality with true 1080P/24 feature) $5,000 2. Sony KDL-55XBR8 (The second best over all picture quality with true 1080P/24 feature) $7,000 3. Panasonic TH-50PZ800U (Third best over all picture quality when the 60HZ refresh mode is used) $2,500 4. Samsung LN55A950 (Fourth best over all picture quality with true 1080P/24 feature) $5,000
The following are word for word quotes from the Feb 2009 Home Theater face off written by Thomas J. Norton
1. Pioneer PRO-111FD:
"The Pioneer's PureCinema control, in any setting, automatically converts 1080p/24 to a refresh rate of 72Hz by repeating (not interpolating) each frame three times. In addition, when set to Advance, it will convert any film-based source (except 1080p/60) to a display rate of 72Hz. (This will eliminate 3:2 pulldown in the process.)"
"The set's speakers attach to the sides and are removable if space is an issue. While the judges did not evaluate audio in this Face Off, my own experience with the sets tells me that the Pioneer offers the best sound by a considerable margin-if that is a relevant issue to the potential buyer."
"The panel praised the Pioneer for its smooth performance on motion. One judge noted that it produced the cleanest detail on horizontal motion, holding small details in the background and foreground."
"The Pioneer's deep black foundation also contributed to its fine sense of image depth. One judge commented that she could see textures in dimly lit details better than on the other sets, including the best facial textures in the dimly lit Russian stargate facility scenes in Stargate: Continuum."
"Apart from that , the Pioneer totally wowed the panel. Four out of five judges ranked it first overall. It also ranked first in all four of the rated performance categories."
"Most of all, it consistently handled all of the program material. Perhaps one judge summed it up best when he commented, "Fantastic. Every-thing looked awesome. The high-def stuff was the best I've ever seen."
"It's not surprising that the Pioneer came out on top for me. You simply can't trip it up. Every set here had flaws that could be drawn out consistently with certain types of program material, except the Pioneer. But other things in this Face Off were very surprising, for both good and ill. "(p.48)
2. Sony KDL-55XBR8:
"The Sony operates at a frame rate of 120 Hz. The set refreshes at 120 Hz with processing that adds new interpolated frames to the source's 24-Hz or 60-Hz frame rate. Sony calls this technology Motionflow 120Hz PRO, and many competing 120-Hz sets operate similarly. With this technology, motion lag-which has long been an issue with LCDs-can be reduced or eliminated. The only issue many of us have with this feature is that it can make film sources look like video. For this test, we shut the feature off. When Motionflow is off, the set simply repeats frames, instead of interpolating them, to reach its native 120-Hz frame rate."
"When the KDL-55XBR8 receives a 24-fps input, it keeps it as a direct multiple of 24 fps all the way to the screen. That is, the display repeats the original frame five times (or interpolates as needed) to bring it directly up to 120 Hz - a process called 5:5 pulldown."
"The panel found the Sony's deep black levels impressive."
"Another commented that the Sony was effective on the dark, difficult-to-reproduce scenes from Stargate: Continuum, which includes the star field at the beginning of chapter 1, the ship scenes in chapter 3, and the Russian stargate facility in chapter 21"
"But this praise was tempered by negative comments on the Sony's off-axis viewing limitations. One observer saw noticeable false contouring off axis on some material (which disappeared on axis). Others found that the black level performance (and color) deteriorated noticeably at small off-axis angles. Nevertheless, the Sony performed so well on axis that it tied with the Pioneer for the best overall black level."
"Even without its motion compensation engaged, the judges were not particularly bothered by motion lag, which is a persistent shortcoming of LCD displays (but one that is clearly far less noxious than it used to be). But the Sony's Archilles heel (which it shares with the Samsung and all other LCDs we've tested) is its off-axis performance. Even at relatively small angles, the image starts to wash out. Most viewers will likely notice this, either immediately or over time."
3. Panasonic TH-50PZ800U:
"All of the sets can display 1080p/24 as a direct multiple of 24 fps: 120fps in the Samsung and Sony, 72 fps in the Pioneer, and 48 fps in the Panasonic. I ran the Pioneer, Samsung, and Sony in this mode. But the Panasonic also offers the option to display a 24-fps source at either 1080p/48 or 1080p/60. I chose the latter. The Panasonic's peak-white output at 1080p/48 drops by 30 percent at 1080p/48, which limited its ability to match the other sets' peak brightness settings. The Panasonic also displayed noticeable flicker at the 48- fps setting" (p.38).
"The Panasonic will accept a 1080p/24 input and display it at 48 or 60 frames per second (for the latter, it adds 3:2 pulldown). As noted in the introduction, I chose the 60-fps setting for all the testing and viewing reported. In the 24-fps setting, there was noticeable flicker in bright images with large expanses of white or color (such as blue sky). This was particularly annoying when we viewed the Panasonic next to the other sets."
"The Panasonic earned mixed scores on black level and shadow detail."
"But a few scenes clearly showed the Panasonics black level limits: the opening scenes from Master and Commander: The Far Side of the World, the near-black screen in the opening Stargate Continuum, and the shipping-crate scene from chapter 6 of Madagascar."
"The Panasonic's video processing was a weak point. It was at its worst on the most difficult 1080i material (M:I:III in our tests), where it didn't respond properly to 3:2 pulldown. The set's color was a little warm for some of the judges, but it drew satisfactory scores on both color and detail."
"While two of the three other sets in the group outperformed it overall, the Panasonic held its own, particularly at its price. It received the highest score for value, which strongly suggests that the panel, overall, liked what it saw."
4. Samsung LN55A950:
"Like most new high-end LCD sets, the Samsung operates at a refresh rate of 120 Hz and includes two separate features designed to compensate for LCD motion lag: Auto Motion Plus 120Hz and LED Motion Plus. You can use them together or separately. "
"If Auto Motion Plus 120HZ is turned off, the display repeats source frames as needed to reach the set's 120-Hz native operating frequency. (For example, it will repeat each frame in a 24-Hz source five times to reach 120 Hz.) If you turn Auto Motion Plus 120Hz on (there are Low, Medium, and High settings), the display adds the same number of frames, it interpolates them from the preceding and following frames."
"LED Motion Plus cycles horizontal blocks of the LED backlights on and off, scrolling from top to bottom once every frame (120th of a second). Since this shuts off the backlighting while the LCD is changing states from on to off or back, you don't see the lag that occurs during this transition. But the technique also noticeably reduces brightness. As noted in the introduction, we left both of these features off for the test."
"While the Samsung's black level rating did manage to best the Panasonic for second place (Sony and Pioneer tied for first), its shadow detail ratings pulled it down. One panelist commented that even directly on axis, the dark scene from The Incredible Hulk looked too dark and lacked detail."
"Having viewed the Samsung extensively in the pre-test setup process and when I reviewed it for the December 2008 issue, I was surprised by how much criticism it drew for black level and shadow detail. As for absolute blacks, it was clearly at a disadvantage next to the Sony and Pioneer. But the measurement section shows it still turned in a very impressive pure black level of 0.003 ft-L, far better than most flat panels can manage. Some of the negative comments were clearly triggered by the mixed messages sent by this set's on - off axis performance."
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