I am glad to see more and more 65 inch displays being released that properly display 1080P/24 signals similar to a film projector. When Auto Motion Plus is turned off this 65 inch Samsung will do a true 5:5 pulldown for 1080P/24 signals.
65 inch and 70 inch displays are more enjoyable since the screen is bigger and closer to the movie theater experience. Many consumers do not have a dedicated dark Home Theater room to project an 80 inch, 100 inch or 200 inch 1080P image from a ceiling mounted Front Projector and end up getting a flat panel instead (BLU-RAY looks the best on high quality Front Projectors). Also a LCD and Plasma flat panel can be used with room lights on for causal TV watching.
For those interested in the Samsung LN-65B650 65 inch LCD, the list price on the display is $5,999.99. From one of my reliable sources I have learned the Samsung LN-65B650 will be selling for around $4,403 from some discount mail order companies once large quantities of the display become available. Of course to get those prices one may need to wait 2-3 months at least. There is also an advantage of purchasing at a retail store since most have a 30 day return policy.
In the purposes of comparing this display to other displays I will only deal with list prices on all the following models I mention below. The Samsung LN-65B650 at a list price of $5,999.99 is one of the most expensive 65 inches on the market. For those looking to save money the 55 inch Samsung LN-55B650 with the exact same picture quality according to the specs, lists for $2,899.99. So one is paying $3,100 more for an extra 10 inches of screen when they move up to the LN-65B650 model. Of course the extra 10 inches is more enjoyable. Personally if I was in the market for a new Samsung I would get the new UN55B8500 LCD with Local Dimming LED backlighting. The Samsung UN55B8500 is Samsungs flagship display for the best picture quality. The 55 inch Samsung UN55B8500 lists for $4,499.99. It is 10 inches smaller in size compared to the 65 inch models and to enjoy the display more one would need to sit closer to the display. No one makes a 65 inch LCD with Local Dimming LED backlighting yet. Most likely the first generation 65 inch LCD with Local Dimming LED backlighting model would cost around $10,000 from Samsung or Sony. The NuVision NVU65FX5 and the Sony KDL-65W5100 are also good 65 inch LCD screens to look at. The Sony KDL-65W5100 list price is only $4,999.99. That is $1,000 cheaper then Samsungs LN-65B650. I have not compared the picture quality of these two displays and maybe the Samsung has a better picture quality then the Sony which would justify the extra $1,000 cost. It would be interesting to have a face off between the Sony KDL-65W5100, Samsung LN-65B650, and NuVision NVU65FX5. Then if one includes the 65 inch Panasonic TC-P65V10 plasma that lists for only $3,999.95 it would clearly win the face off against all the standard LCD models. The Panasonic TC-P65V10 is THX certified and at a list price of $3,999.95 it is a bargain. The Panasonic is $2,000 cheaper compared to Samsung's 65 inch model and a $1,000 cheaper then Sony's 65 inch model. Then on top of that the V10 series has been getting the best reviews with comments like it has the best picture quality of any display reviewed so far this year (The discontinued 2008 Pioneer Elite plasma still beat the V10 in overall picture quality) .The Panasonic V10 properly handles 1080P/24 at 96HZ and the CNET review can be found on the link on the main list. To be fair the V10 needs to be put in a face off against the new Samsung UN55B8500 and possible a new 2009 Sony LCD with Local Dimming LED backlighting to see who wins (So far no news on if Sony has a replacement for the excellent XBR8 that has Local Dimming).
For those that really want a standard 70 inch 120HZ LCD and need that size for a large room, Sony still makes the KDL-70XBR7 for $19,999,99. The $4,999.99 Sony KDL-65W5100 has a better picture in the area of contrast ratio according to Sony specs. Paying an extra $15,000 just for an extra 5 inches is a little costly for the average consumer. I remember the days when Sony launched their first 70 inch LCOS (SXRD) rear projector for $13,000. It was only a 60HZ 1080P display. It would be ideal if Sony and other manufactories could get the price down on the 70 inch LCD's to around $10,000. Then they would sell a lot more 70 inch displays. There were consumers purchasing Sony 70 inch 1080P 60HZ rear projectors for $6,999 before Sony left the rear projector business. It may take a few years for 120HZ 70 inch LCD's to fall under the $10,000 mark.
Samsung adds true 24P refresh rates to plasma screens for the very first time
New Samsung PN58B860 and PN50B860 96HZ Ultra Thin 1.2 inch Plasma's added to the list
It is good news that Samsung has improved their plasma screens and for the very first time offers true 4:4 pulldown at 96HZ when a 1080P/24 signal is received. This 1080P/24 film quality refresh rate of 96HZ is available only on Samsungs top of the line PN58B860 and PN50B860 1080P plasma models (Panasonic also offers 96HZ on a few select higher-end plasma screens like the V10 series).
The Samsung B860 series is both a 60HZ and 96HZ plasma panel. When watching a BLU-RAY or Direct TV on demand movie that is encoded at 1080P/24 the Samsung B860 will display the image at 96HZ when the Cinema Smooth option is turned on in the Samsung menu. This 96HZ film quality mode will bypass the 3:2 pulldown process and camera pans and fast moving motion will look more like natural film compared to a 60HZ video look. According to page 27 of 284 in the Samsung instruction manual, only the PN50B860Y2F and PN58B860Y2F offer the Cinema Smooth feature. To use the Cinema Smooth feature a 1080p/24 HDMI signal has to be present.
According to the Home Theater review the list price on the 50 inch Samsung PN50B860 is $2,400. The list price must have been lowered recently since the Samsung website is now showing a list price of $2,199.99. The list price on the 58 inch Samsung PN58B860 is $3,199.99. One disappointing thing about the new Samsung B860 series is that the black levels are not as deep as a discontinued Pioneer Kuro. The discontinued 2008 Pioneer Kuro still has a better picture quality then any LCD or plasma screen. Hopefully a new top of the line Samsung, Panasonic, or other brand of flat panel model in the years to come will be able to match or beat the picture quality of a Pioneer plasma screen.
Not all plasma screens are better then the best LCD screens. Just because a screen is a plasma does not mean it automatically is going to have the best picture quality. There are now LCD with Local Dimming LED backlighting displays that will out perform some plasma models in the area of contrast and black levels. For example the Samsung UN55B8500 according to Samsungs own spec sheets has 7,000,000:1 Contrast Ratio compared to the Samsung B860 Plasma that offers only 3,000,000:1 Contrast Ratio (ANSI numbers are more important numbers when comparing contrast ratios and I wish those numbers would be released). If one places the 240HZ $4,499.99 Samsung UN55B8500 up against the $3,199.99 Samsung PN58B860 most likely the UN55B8500 would win the face off in the area of deepest blacks and excellent contrast ratio when compared to the Samsung plasma(straight on viewing performance). LCD screens off axis viewing keeps improving and motion blur issues keep improving but LCD screens still are not as good as plasma in those areas. Plasma strong points is it has almost the same picture quality no matter where one seats in the room plus excellent motion with fast moving images.
The improved 240HZ feature of the UN55B8500 LCD that reduces motion blur is still not as good as plasma's running at 96HZ. The UN55B8500 LCD still has a response time of 2ms. In comparsion the B860 response time is rated at only .001ms. The lower the number for response time the better fast motion will look on the screen.
The 600HZ subfield drive mentioned in the specs of new plasma displays might offer a slight improvement to motion blur but it really is more of a marketing buzz word that plasma companies are using. Plasma already has excellent motion and instead of listing the real 96HZ motion the subfield drive is being mentioned a lot since 600HZ is a bigger number compared to 120HZ or 240HZ LCD screens. Also almost all or most 60HZ plasma's used a 480HZ subfield drive before the improved 600HZ subfield drive was released.
The following selected quotes are from the September 2009 Home Theater review on the Samsung PN50B860.
" The Film mode provides four different settings: Off, Auto1, Auto2, and Cinema Smooth. The Cinema Smooth option displays 1080p/24 program material with 4:4 pulldown—in other words, at 96 Hz. It repeats the additional three frames; no frame interpolation is involved. If the source is 1080p/60, the Film mode defaults to Off, and if the source is interlaced, the available Film mode options are Auto1, Auto2, and Off. If you select Cinema Smooth with a 1080p/24 source and subsequently switch to a 1080i source, for example, the Film mode will automatically switch to Auto1—and back, again automatically, as needed."
" Unlike many HDTVs, the Samsung offers both 4:3 and Zoom aspect ratio options when the incoming resolution is 1080i or 1080p."
" Yet the alternative in the flat panel market, plasma, continues to hang in there. The reasons are simple. Until very recently, plasmas could be (although they weren’t always) less expensive than similarly sized LCDs. Good performance on rapid motion and flawless off-axis viewing also come with the territory on a plasma but not on LCD. And for years, plasmas were capable of better black levels and higher contrast—although this wasn’t universally true and is, in any event, slowly changing."
" The new Samsung PN50B860, together with a number of siblings, is distinctive for a number of reasons. Perhaps the most visible is its amazingly thin design—approximately 1.2 inches deep (without the stand). Because plasma’s picture elements are self-illuminating, as with a CRT, they don’t require a backlight, so making them thinner involves fewer challenges than with an LCD. Ultra-thin LCDs are also available, but they tend to be expensive."
" The PN50B860 is not only thin, but at 57.5 pounds (without the stand), it’s considerably lighter than most plasmas of the same size. This is challenging to LCD’s long-held advantage in the weight department."
" Subfield drive is fundamental to all plasma displays, and while 600 Hz may be a step up from the frequency Samsung used last year, it’s not unique. "
" Don’t confuse this 600-Hz frequency with the 120-Hz (and up) operation of many LCD sets. It isn’t the same thing. And in any case, plasma’s inherent resistance to motion blur doesn’t need heroic enhancements."
Some negative quotes regarding the B860 series Plasmas
" There’s no S-video and only one component and one composite input, which are shared (you can’t connect them both at the same time)."
" Problems? Yes, a couple. Even after more than a hundred hours of use, the Samsung appeared to be more prone than usual (for a plasma) to temporary image retention. But you should be able to render this moot if you use the included features to minimize this problem. You should also exercise a reasonable—not paranoid—degree of caution in avoiding extended viewing of stationary images."
" The set also emits an inescapable mechanical buzz, which varies in level from insignificant to obvious, depending on the average brightness of the image. In my experience, the program material audio nearly always masked it, but your annoyance factor with this may well vary from mine."
" Black level and shadow detail are the twin obstacles that unhinge many an otherwise fine HDTV. And at either a subjective or objective level, the Samsung plasma falls short of the state of the art (see HT Labs Measures). There is an odd twist that sometimes (but not always) drives the set’s black level to nearly off in immediate transitions from a bright scene to black. Still, the black level is most often a lighter gray than I’ve seen on many recent sets—even LCDs."
" Conclusions"
"If, like me, you watch movies in the dark and are a nut for the deepest, darkest blacks you can get from scenes with little or no inherent contrast (even if such scenes are relatively rare in most films), this might not be your ideal HDTV. But if you’re looking for an appealing combination of high resolution, accurate color, tempting price, outstanding off-axis and motion performance, useful features, and respectable rather than jaw-dropping blacks and shadow detail—all in a slim, attractive package—this might just be the set for you."
SONY 240HZ LCD Flat screens, more info needed before adding them to the list
Home Theater magazine just released a September 2009 review on the Sony KDL-52XBR9 which has a true 240HZ refresh rate. The problem is the writer did not mention if the display will do a true 10:10 pulldown when MotionEnhancer (MotionFlow) is turned off.
I realize some consumers and video professionals prefer the look of interpolation of new frames since the image has a sharp smooth video quality look. This list is made up of displays that repeat the original 1080p/24 frame rate at multiplies of 24 for those consumers that perfer the look of film over the look of video. Hopefully future 240HZ Sony LCD reviews will mention if the repeating frame method is a feature on these new displays. Most likely the 240HZ Sony's offer a 10:10 pulldown mode when MotionEnhancer is off, but the Sony 240HZ models will remain off the list until documented evidence mentions the 10:10 pulldown feature.
A few Quotes on the 240HZ Sony KDL-52XBR9 from Home Theater magazine
"Lower black level than most conventional LCDs"
"This brings us to XBR9, a line with four screen sizes, including the 52-inch KDL-52XBR9—the largest of the bunch—reviewed here. Interestingly, the XBR8 line uses LED backlighting, whereas the XBR9 uses conventional CCFL, which makes the XBR8 the true flagship in Sony’s fleet, at least in terms of contrast and black level. On the other hand, the XBR9 is newer and offers several other advantages over the XBR8."
"At the top of the feature list is a 240-hertz refresh rate, which is twice the rate of the XBR8 and many other interpolating LCDs. (The smallest XBR9, a 32-incher, is 120 Hz.) And this is true 240 Hz. It interpolates three frames between each frame of a 60-Hz signal and nine frames between each frame in a 24-Hz signal. (Some LCD TVs that claim 240 Hz actually refresh the screen at 120 Hz and turn the backlight on and off in a particular pattern during each frame, so they’re a pseudo 240 Hz.)"
"Frame interpolation, which Sony calls Motionflow, is designed to combat the motion blur that’s endemic to LCDs—and it’s generally very successful at this task. However, it can also introduce artifacts of its own, particularly smudging in moving areas of fine detail. It also imparts what many reviewers describe as a video-like look, which some viewers object to."
"A couple of weeks after my main evaluation, I had the opportunity to compare the KDL-52XBR9’s 240-Hz operation with that of the Toshiba 42ZV650 from last month’s flat-panel Face Off, which is pseudo 240 Hz (that is, 120 Hz with backlight scanning). The Sony was clearly sharper on motion tests—in fact, the Toshiba was no sharper than the conventional 120-Hz sets from the Face Off. "
The Mitsubishi WD-73837 Rear Projector will not be added to the list since it uses a 3:2 pulldown process for 1080P/24 signals
(Also all other Mitsubishi Rear Projectors and LCD flat panel screens will not be added to the list)
So far only Mitsubishi ceiling mounted Front Projectors remain on the list since they bypass the 3:2 pulldown process and display 1080P/24 signals at multiplies of the original frame rate (48HZ refresh).
The 120HZ Mitsubishi LCD flat panels and 120HZ Rear Projectors all add a 3:2 pulldown process to the 1080P/24 signal. The 1080P/24 signal is first converted to 60HZ and then to 120HZ. Hopefully future models of LCD's and Rear Projectors from Mitsubishi will offer a true 5:5 pulldown mode for 120HZ models.
Quote from page 63 in the October 2009 Home Theater magazine "The Mitsubishi can accept a 1080p/24 input but can't display it at a rate that's a direct multiply of 24 (48, 72, 96, etc). Instead, to reach 120 hertz, it first converts it to 1080p/60 by adding 3:2 pulldown."
The Mitsubishi DLP rear projectors do not have as good as black levels and picture quality as a Pioneer Kuro according to page 65 of the October 2009 Home Theater magazine. For people that do not mind watching an average quality 1080P display with a little 3:2 pulldown judder added, the Mitsubishi DLP projector is a bargain with its strong points being screen size. The Mitsubishi 65 inch , 73 inch and 82 inch DLP projectors don't make the list since they lack true film quality 1080p/24 refresh rates, but a 73 inch 1080P screen only costs $3,000 list price and the bulb replacement is only $99. When I looked at the 82 inch DLP in Best Buy it reminded me a little bit like watching a Front Projector since the screen was so much larger compared to a flat panel. Sure I preferred the picture quality of a Pioneer Kuro or Sony XBR8 with the deeper blacks but the 82 inch DLP is ideal for someone that wants the biggest screen size at a low price and does not mind if the picture quality is average quality when compared to top of the line flat panel models. Also these new models of DLP's only lose brightness when viewing off angle. Color quality and black levels remained the same even at 45 degrees (page 64).
5 Samsung 96HZ Plasma screens have been added to the list
All 5 of the following Samsung plasma displays mention the "Cinema Smooth" feature in both the spec sheets and instruction manuals. This is the exact same "Cinema Smooth" feature located on the top of the line Samsung PN58B860 and PN50B860 plasma screens.
When the Cinema Smooth option is turned on the Samsung displays will display 1080p/24 signals from BLU-RAY and Direct TV sources at 96HZ just like a film projector does in the theater. 3:2 pulldown is bypass and no interpolation of new frames is used. Just true 4:4 pulldown of the original 1080P/24 signal.
Quote from Page 25 of Samsung 560 and 590 series manual
"Cinema Smooth: Cinema Smooth reproduces film cinema video with greatly reduced or without visible motion judder, as you see it in the movie theater."
The following selected quotes are from the September 2009 Home Theater review on the Samsung PN50B860.
"The Film mode provides four different settings: Off, Auto1, Auto2, and Cinema Smooth. The Cinema Smooth option displays 1080p/24 program material with 4:4 pulldown—in other words, at 96 Hz. It repeats the additional three frames; no frame interpolation is involved. If the source is 1080p/60, the Film mode defaults to Off, and if the source is interlaced, the available Film mode options are Auto1, Auto2, and Off. If you select Cinema Smooth with a 1080p/24 source and subsequently switch to a 1080i source, for example, the Film mode will automatically switch to Auto1—and back, again automatically, as needed."
(A 1080p/24 Cinema Smooth glitch that causes the picture settings to change is mentioned in the CNET review that hopfully will clear up with a future Samsung firmware update)
This CNET review mentions a 1080p/24 glitch on the Samsung 650 series. Possible the glitch might only effect the 650 series Samsungs. No reviews yet on the Samsung 590 and 560 series plasmas that offer the Cinema Smooth feature. The September 2009 review in the Home Theater magazine for the top of the line Samsung 860 series plasma screens did not mention this problem when going over the Cinema Smooth feature in detail. Most likely the problem has been corrected with the release of the Samsung 860 series.
Nice new feature on the new Samsungs allows firmware to be downloaded over the built in Ethernet connection on the TV with a push of a few buttons on the remote control
The following are select Quotes from CNET review on the Samsung 650 series
"The Samsung PNB650 series delivers excellent overall picture quality, surpassing the color accuracy of the superb Panasonic V10 series and also delivering an arguably better picture in a bright room. The Panasonic delivers deeper black levels, however, and a video processing glitch we encountered with the Samsung's 1080p/24 mode also gave us pause."
"Samsung and Panasonic share a lot of features in their plasma TVs, including "600Hz" panels that are said to improve motion resolution to reduce blur. The best thing we can say about this feature is to ignore it; the number was created in response to the 120Hz and 240Hz refresh rates of LCDs. Plasma technology is inherently less subject to blurring than LCD, and in any case it's really hard to see any difference with real material. Like Panasonic, Samsung also includes a mode to properly deal with 1080p/24 sources, although engaging it did cause a strange glitch."
"We did encounter one significant black level snafu, however. When we engaged the "Cinema Smooth" mode in the Film Mode menu, which is designed to help preserve the correct frame rate of film with 1080p/24 sources, black levels rose significantly. It was as if the TV had switched to another, uncalibrated picture mode. Switching Film Mode back to Off didn't return the black levels to their correct, calibrated state; to do so we had to stop playback entirely, which sent a normal 1080p/60 source to the TV and disengaged Cinema Smooth. Needless to say this is unusual behavior, and we'll update this review when Samsung has an explanation (and hopefully a fix). In the meantime, we recommend not using Cinema Smooth with our picture settings."
"Video processing: Aside from the black level issues we described above, the PNB650 handled 1080p/24 sources properly when we engaged the Cinema Smooth setting in its Film menu. We tested this option by watching the flyover of the deck of the Intrepid from "I Am Legend," and the planes and indeed the entire frame preserved the correct cadence of film, without the hitching motion characteristic of 2:3 pull-down. When we switched the Cinema Smooth setting off, the hitching returned. We wish this mode automatically engaged the Samsung received a 1080p/24 source, especially since it seems to turn off every time the TV receives a normal 1080p/60 source."
"We're also big fans of the new-for-2009 capability, unique among HDTVs, to get firmware updates via an online download, rather than making you go to the Web site, as was the case before."
"It's worth noting that on our review sample, we did notice more image retention than we saw on the Panasonic and Pioneer plasmas, although as usual it was quite temporary and disappeared quickly during normal viewing."
"The Samsung didn't quite match the motion resolution of the Panasonic plasmas or the 240Hz LCDs in our comparisons, delivering between 800 and 900 lines, according to our test."
"Color accuracy:Here's where the Samsung outdid the Panasonics and nearly matched the Pioneer. Primary and secondary color accuracy was nearly perfect on the PNB650, and while the grayscale varied a bit more than we'd like to see, it was still solid. Accurate color decoding resulted in excellent saturation, for colors that looked a bit more lifelike overall than on the Panasonic V10."
Problems on some older models of VIZIO's not displaying 1080P/24 signals from most BLU-RAY players
(also film cadence issues)
(New VIZIO models most likely will not have this issue with 1080P/24 signals)
The newer models of VIZIO displays that have been released in the later half of 2009 appear to have a lot better quality when it comes to 1080p/24 compatibility issues. I was reading some older reviews from CNET that mentioned that the VIZIO 120HZ LCD displays like the VF550XVT and SV470XVT did not seem to preserve the cadence of film when the 5:5 pulldown option was turned on (Smooth Mode Effect turned off). CNET thought the displays looked more like 60HZ with 3:2 pulldown. Some brands and models of displays on the list do a better job of displaying 1080P/24 signals compared to others.
There have been a few reviews that mention that the older VIZIO displays will not accept a 1080P/24 signal from most standalone BLU-RAY or HD-DVD players. Only the Sony Playstation 3 was able to work at 1080P/24.
According to the following Home Theater review, it appears VIZIO fixed the problem with the VF550XVT with either a firmware or hardware update. Older 120HZ VF550XVT's would not work with most BLU-RAY or HD-DVD players when 1080P/24 signal was inputted to one of the VIZIO HDMI inputs. The review mentions that VIZIO will make a house call at no charge to fix the problem.
Home Theater review on the VIZIO VF550XVT 120HZ LCD (April 2009 review link)
Quote
" When I prepared to play Cars on my Samsung BD-P1200 Blu-ray player, I tried to set it to output 1080p/24, but it would not let me select 24 fps. That was odd, so I set the Toshiba HD-XA2 HD DVD player to 1080p/24, but the Vizio’s screen went black, and I could not reset the player because I couldn’t see the menu. Outputting 1080p/60 worked fine in both cases. Vizio claims this issue with 1080p/24 was limited to earlier samples. If you run into this problem, Vizio will make a house call to fix it at no cost." http://hometheatermag.com/flat-panels/vizio_vf550xvt_lcd_hdtv/index1.html
VIZIO VF550XVT 120 HZ LCD flat panels will not work with many BLU-RAY players in 1080p/24 mode (Feb 2009 review link)
According to the UltimateAVmag.com review the Vizio VF550XVT works fine with the Playstation 3 but there is incompatibility problems when using most standalone BLU-RAY and HD-DVD players that will not allow a 1080p/24 signal to be inputted into the VIZIO. Note: According to the updated review posted above, the following problem has been fixed on newer models.
Quote
" When I was preparing to play Cars on my Samsung BD-P1200 Blu-ray player, I tried to set it to output 1080p/24, but it would not let me select 24fps. That was odd, so I set the Toshiba HD-XA2 to 1080p/24, but the Vizio's screen went black, and I could not reset the player because I could not see the menu. Outputting 1080p/60 worked fine in both cases."
"When I called Vizio about it, I was informed that the TV has a compatibility problem with certain players at 1080p/24- the company has identified the Panasonic DMP-BD30 and 35 in this regard. (I assume the BD50 and 55 must also be problematic, since they are identical to the 30 and 35 except for their multichannel analog-audio outputs.) According to the company, the Sony PlayStation 3 works fine at 1080p/24, but I didn't have one on hand to test this."
CNETS review on the VF550XVT (1080p/24 film cadence quality issues)
"Another issue with the Vizio's video processing sees to have carried over from the SV470XVT. When we turned off its dejudder and engaged the 1080p/24 setting on our Blu-ray player, the Vizio didn't seem to preserve the cadence of film as well as the other displays. The pan over the Intrepid from "I Am Legend," for example, looked closer to the 60Hz Panasonic, with its characteristic "hitch" from 2:3 pulldown, than to the Sony, Samsung and Pioneer, which properly convert the 24-frame material for display on their 120Hz (and 72Hz, in Pioneer's case) refresh rates."
CNETS review of the 120HZ SV470XVT (1080p/24 film cadence quality issues)
"As a 120Hz display we expected the SV470XVT to improve the look 1080p/24 sources when its dejudder processing was turned off, but we found it difficult to discern any benefit to setting our player to 1080p/24 mode with this display. We checked out the pan over the Intrepid aircraft carrier from I Am Legend for this comparison. We expected to see the marginally smoother look evinced on the Samsung A650 and the Sony (with their dejudder modes off) but instead the pan looked a bit less smooth, similar to the appearance of the 60Hz displays in our test (the plasmas and the Samsung A550). This isn't a huge deal in our opinion, since the difference between the two isn't gigantic by any means, but videophiles intent on using 1080p/24 to preserve the correct cadence of film may be disappointed in the Vizio".
The Sony VPL-HW15 SXRD (LCOS) Front Projector has been added to the list
Like all Sony 1080P SXRD Front Projectors the VPL-HW15 will handle 1080p/24 signals just like a movie projector and flash the image on the screen at multiplies of the original frame rate. This model uses the 96HZ 4:4 pulldown method for 1080p/24 signals. List price is only $2,999.99. This model is limited to projecting up to a 200 inch image where as some other Sony projectors will project up to 300 inches.
The Sony VPL-VW85 SXRD Front Projector has been added to the list
September 2009 Home Theater Review link
The new Sony VPL-VW85 SXRD 1080P Front Projector has been added to the list. With MotionEnhancer turned off the Projector will properly display 1080p/24 images just like a film projector using 4:4 pulldown at 96HZ. Turning on MotionEnhancer will make 1080P/24 source material look like video instead of film since interpolation of new frames is used.
The Sony VPL-VW85 does not have as deep as blacks as the Sony VPL-VW70 and instead Sony decided to make the new model much more brighter on the screen. The list price on the VPL-VW85 is $8,000 and a 1080P image between 40 inches to 300 inches can be projected.
The following are a few select quotes from the September Home Theater review link
" With a 1080p/24 source, the Sony projects at a refresh rate of 96 frames per second. To reach 96 hertz, it either repeats each original frame three times or uses its MotionEnhancer feature to create interpolated frames. The upside of the latter is noticeably smoothed-out motion. The downside is that MotionEnhancer, particularly in its high setting, makes film-based sources look like video. A separate Film Projection feature also offers a dark frame insertion feature that I didn’t test. I left both of these features off for all of my tests."
" the new model is a refinement. It’s just as impressive in most respects, but there’s at least one significant improvement: dramatically higher brightness."
" The VPL-VW85 has three SXRD imaging chips, one for each color. There’s no moving color wheel and therefore no rainbow artifacts."
" In addition to the usual aspect ratios, the VPL-VW85 includes an anamorphic zoom option that’s designed for use with an anamorphic lens for showing 2.35:1 films on a 2.35:1 screen. The projector also has a 12-volt trigger signal that lets you move a motorized anamorphic lens into place when you select this aspect ratio. I didn’t use the anamorphic feature in this review."
" The VPL-VW85’s black level isn’t as deep as the black level we measured from the VPL-VW70. The reason is obvious: The VPL-VW85 is a much brighter projector."
"On my now ancient JVC DLA-RS1 (two-plus years old), which gets its deep blacks without the need for an auto iris, hundreds of stars were visible, including many very dim ones. On the Sony, there were also plenty of stars against a comparably black background, but the stars were noticeably dimmer. That’s because the auto iris sees a star field as mostly black, so it dims the scene to deepen those blacks, and in the process, it dims the stars as well. Only by a direct comparison to a projector with comparable blacks and no auto iris would you be aware that anything was amiss."
"I can’t recall another projector I’ve reviewed that produced better resolution than the VPL-VW85. And it was this superior resolution I first noticed when I fired it up. White lettering on titles was clear and crisp, without the trace of colored edges that often turns up on other projectors—a sign of panel misalignment, optical issues (chromatic aberration), or both. In fact, the Sony’s lens quality here appeared to be among the best."
" Conclusions
I could be curmudgeonly about the odd gamma in the auto iris settings and the nonintuitive RCP color management system. I could talk about the lack of a blue-only mode to better check the color and tint settings and the quality of the color decoder. But no video display is perfect. The important point is that Sony has continued to refine its SXRD projectors while holding the line on the price. The result is a great projector that, while not inexpensive, should be on your shopping list even if you’re willing and able to pay much, much more."
so is that means all the models on page-1 are capable of payback PAL video?
This included PAL-SD-DVD, as well as PAL-SD material on some of the Region-B BR.
Thank you!
I do not maintain a list of PAL or worldwide signal support displays. The displays on the list 1-5 in theory all accept 1080P/24 signals and display the image on the screen at multiplies of the original frame rate just like a movie projector.
There are a few displays on the list that will handle both PAL and sometimes SECAM signals. Most of the Front projectors like the JVC models on the list act like professional monitors and accept 576i/p SD PAL formats and 1080P at 60/50/24.
It is a lot harder to find flat panel displays that support PAL. The Nuvision LCD displays on the list accept 576i and 576p SD PAL signals from DVD and BLU-RAY discs that contain PAL. The Nuvision will not accept 50HZ HD signals but only 24HZ and 60HZ 1080P.
The discontinued Pioneer 60 inch PRO-141FD and 50 inch PRO-101FD Elite Signature monitors will support PAL/SECAM SD 576i and 576P along with 720P(50HZ and 60HZ) and 1080P at 50HZ, 60HZ and 24HZ.
One also needs to own a BLU-RAY player that can output native PAL or convert it to NTSC.
Those that own a display that accepts native PAL signals when playing PAL SD DVD and BLU-RAY content will sometimes purchase a OPPO BDP-83 player. The OPPO BDP-83 can output native PAL. For those that only own a HDTV that only supports NTSC SD then owning a player like the OPPO BDP-83 has an option to convert PAL to the NTSC format. Of course watching native PAL on a display that supports PAL is much better quality then having the player convert it to NTSC.
Without a region free or region selectable player only some BLU-RAY or DVD PAL discs can be played.
The OPPO BDP-83 official firmware only allows the playback of DVD and BLU-RAY PAL discs that are encoded as region free. Region 2 DVD's and region B BLU-RAY's would require a unauthorized modification to the player or another player. Almost all manufactories do not offer region free or region selectable BLU-RAY players since they would take some legal heat from the Hollywood studios. The studios purposely encode the regions that a DVD and BLU-RAY disc is allowed to play in so that movies are not imported to other areas in the world. Once and a while a home video BLU-RAY or DVD movie being released in the US is released before the exact same movie is even released in a theater in some other parts of the world. Having region codes in that case would prevent or make it difficult for someone to watch the movie on home video before it even appears in the theater in their country.
In the past for the DVD format there were a couple of companies that offered region free and region selectable DVD players that also disabled the copy protection on the analog outputs to improve the picture quality. These DVD players sometimes showed up on retail stores and required a secret menu to be accessed to activate those features. The Motion Picture Association and others were upset with the players that played discs from all around the world with the feature to disable the analog copy protection. After the APEX scandal at retail stores like Circuit City several years ago all region free players that also disable copy protection on analog outputs were pulled from retail stores.
Region free and region selectable players are popular with consumers since they can play discs from all around the world but such players are not allowed on retail shelf's in the United States. Also the places on the Internet that offer to sell or modify a BLU-RAY player for region free or region selectable might only work for so many months or years. With the DVD format one did not need to get firmware updates to play the latest movies since the encryption stayed the same. With the BLU-RAY format firmware updates are constantly needed to play the latest movies. If the BLU-RAY player manufactories were pressured by the Hollywood Studios the latest firmware update could be written to disable any region free or region selectable hardware modification that was performed on the player. So in the future some of those expensive region free and region selectable BLU-RAY modifications might stop working with a firmware update.
Toshiba 46SV670U LCD with Local Dimming LED backlighting flat panel
(October 2009 Home Theater review link)
Possible the best flat panel every made so far from Toshiba in terms of picture quality.
The Toshiba 46SV670U LCD with Local Dimming LED backlighting offers outstanding black levels that are close to the quality of a discontinued reference Pioneer plasma. The discontinued 9th generation Pioneer plasma still has better color accuracy and an overall better picture when compared to the Toshiba 46SV670U. At only $2,300 the 46 inch Toshiba 46SV670U is a excellent value priced LCD screen. The 55 inch 55SV670U lists for $3,000. Local dimming LCD models like the Sony XBR8 use to cost $5,000 for a 46 inch model and $7,000 for a 55 inch model, the Toshiba is several thousands of dollars less.
The Toshiba 670U series LCD displays will properly display 1080P/24 signals at multiplies of the original frame rate (This true 24p feature is an important feature for those that watch a lot of BLU-RAY movies). The Toshiba display is really a 120HZ display with a simulated 240HZ effect. Currently only Sony and Samsung are offering true 240HZ LCD displays. According to the Home Theater review the Toshiba 670U series will do a true 5:5 pulldown for 1080P/24 source material when Clearscan is turned off. According to other reviews regarding the 120HZ feature on the Toshiba LCD models there is a second way to turn on 5:5 pulldown with repeating frame method. When Film stabilization is set to standard mode the display will also do a true 5:5 pulldown when 1080p/24 signals are received. Having two ways to turn on 5:5 pulldown is a rare feature, most or all other brands only offer one way to turn on the 5:5 pulldown method.
Here are a few select quotes from the October Home Theater review link
"The Toshiba can accept a 1080p/24 source. When ClearScan 240 is off, it repeats each real frame of a 1080p/24 input four additional times to match the set’s 120-Hz refresh rate (5:5 pulldown). When ClearScan 240 is on, and the Film Stabilization control is set to Smooth, some of the added frames are interpolated. In either case, the blinking of the scanning backlight creates the effect of two frames for each actual frame, which approximates 240-Hz operation."
"The aggressive interpolation that many 120-Hz and 240-Hz designs use often gives film-based material an unnatural (for film), video-like smoothness. Some viewers like this effect, but others (including me) do not. On this Toshiba, the film-like look remained largely intact, even with ClearScan 240 engaged. Nevertheless, I left this feature off for all of my testing and viewing. Even without it, I wasn’t bothered by motion blur. However, gamers and sports fans might choose to turn it on for those applications."
"The Toshiba’s image remains watchable—if you’re not too fussy—farther off axis than is the case with most LCD designs. Even at nearly 45 degrees, most viewers won’t complain. Still, as with all LCDs, you will see a better picture when you sit near the center. When you move further to the side than 20 degrees, the image lightens noticeably. But the lightening isn’t nearly as dramatic as it is with most conventional LCD HDTVs. In my opinion, the 46SV670U’s superb black level deserves much of the credit for this."
"The main downside of local dimming is that the limited number of backlighting zones can produce a visible halo around bright objects that are set against very dark backgrounds. This is easiest to see in white-lettered titles and end credits superimposed over black. I occasionally saw this effect in the Toshiba, but it was so rare that it didn’t bother me."
"Outstanding black level and shadow detail"
"It offers a level of performance that was previously reserved for a few other, much more expensive LED local-dimming designs and the best plasmas ever produced (the now discontinued Pioneer KUROs)."
"Until now, LED backlighting, particularly when combined with local dimming, has been a complex design technique only used in a few very expensive sets (some sets offer LED backlighting without local dimming). Toshiba now shatters that price barrier with the $2,300, 46-inch 46SV670U. (Toshiba also offers a 55-inch version, the 55SV670U, at $3,000.) While 23 big ones isn’t exactly in blue-light special territory, it’s thousands less than what much of the competition demands."
"When you turn DynaLight off, the LED backlighting remains on, but it’s in a fixed mode with no local dimming. This significantly degrades the set’s black level. The DynaLight control you’ll see on other Toshiba sets—sets without local dimming—doesn’t perform the same functions or offer the same benefits as it does here."
"While many sets that offer a 240-Hz implementation use a full 240-Hz refresh rate, Toshiba’s version, ClearScan 240, refreshes at 120 Hz and scans the backlights for a pseudo-240-Hz effect."
"If you’re a video purist, you might be put off by the Toshiba’s few technical shortcomings. But if you’re looking for a great LCD set for a price that, while not cheap, is more affordable than most of the competition, this might just be a winner for you. It’s one of the best-looking sets we’ve reviewed, and possibly the best ever from Toshiba. Highly recommended."
Here is a link to a PDF file that lists the top 8 flat panels tested in a shootout. This shootout is not performed by a professional magazine but by a professional dealer that offers all 8 of the displays for sell. Looking at the numbers from the shoot out they do match many of the professional review results from the several different magazines I subscribe too. For example the Panasonic TC-50V10 has a better black levels compared to the Samsung PN50B860. The color accuracy and peak white luminance is better on the Samsung PN50B860 compared to the Panasonic TC-50V10. The Samsung PN50B860 beat the Panasonic TC-50V10 in the area of general content video quality also. The black level performance on the Toshiba 55SV670U and Samsung UN55B8000 even beat the Panasonic V10 series according to the shootout. The higher end LCD's with Local Dimming LED Backlighting and Edge-lit LED backlighting can produce better black levels then some models of plasma displays.
What is amazing is that the discontinued 2008 Pioneer KRP-500M had a much better picture quality when compared to all 7 of the 2009 displays from various manufactories. The Pioneer KRP-500M is not even an Elite Signature series model like the 50 inch PRO-101FD. The 50 inch PRO-101FD and 60 inch PRO-141FD came out in November 2008 along with a standard non Elite version 60 inch KRP-600M and 50 inch KRP-500M. The lower priced KRP models are similar to the Elite Signature series. The advantage of the Pioneer Elite Signature series over other Pioneer models is the world wide signal support feature (PAL and SECAM), hand inspected and certified parts for the best performance, and 2 year warranty. The KRP series has a 1 year warranty. The KRP-500M is 2.5 inches thick just like the Elite Signature series. One advantage of the lower cost KRP model Pioneer monitors is that they have a built in stereo audio amplifier that can power two optional side speakers. The Elite Signature series does not have any audio section since Pioneer designed that display to be their flagship product in video quality to be used only with a external stereo or surround sound system.
Top displays according to shootout numbers (order is in the best score numbers): Total possible points is 50.
Click the following link in blue to see the results of all 8 displays. The LG 50PS60 in the shoot out is a 60HZ only display with 3:2 pulldown that received a 34.9 total score.
In a few years future Panasonic Plasma screens might use Pioneer technology
This is good news for the future of plasma. One day in a few years there might be a few Panasonic plasma models that matches or beats the picture quality of a 2008 model 9th generation Pioneer plasma screen that went out of production in April 2009.
Quote from article
"The Pioneer KURO sets were indeed the best out there. Snap one up while you can."
"Fortunately, Pioneer's plasma know-how isn't going to waste. Leading plasma manufacturer Panasonic purchased Pioneer's patents and hired many of the engineers who worked in Pioneer's plasma division. It bodes well for future high-end Panasonic plasmas, and there is bound to be a technology trickle-down to its consumer lines."
There was evidence before Pioneer exited the DISPLAY market (ie - they stopped making LCD and plasma televisions) that they were working WITH Panasonic on new technology as far back as 2008.
The Q2 report from Pioneer shows that there are patents moved to Panasonic, but doesn't list for what price and what patents. Panasonic is not looking to make all of its units Kuro displays, they have been #1 in the plasma market for years and they aim to continue being #1 in the PDP market with incredible prices on the 42" plasma (X1) that's seeing huge growth in both q/q and y/y numbers.
Whatever Panasonic chooses to integrate into their panels will require the ability to be mass produced at any one of their 5 plasma factories. If you look at around the 2:30 mark of this video you'll see that there are definitely some features of the Kuro that they will not want to implement - http://uk.cinenow.com/videos/2134-pa...heatre-monitor
This is noted in several reviews where the Kuro obscures detail in some scenes while the Viera's do not.
Those NeoPDPeco sets that were shown on that slide in 2008 are supposed to come out in 2010 as shown at the 2009 Panasonic Convention in Amsterdam.
The Kuro/Viera "NeoPDPeco" technology is supposed to deliver the infinite contrast ratio that the concept Kuro was promised to have this year with 10G but never surfaced.
For those that have a dedicated dark home theater room to mount a Front Projector on the ceiling, Samsung now has 3 Front Projectors that display 1080P/24 signals at 48HZ for the best quality picture when viewing movies from BLU-RAY sources.
These Samsung Front projectors have a "24 Frame True Film mode" as an option in the menu to display images on the screen at either 60HZ with 3:2 pulldown judder or 48HZ film quality mode.
For example on page 31 in the instruction manual for the Samsung SP-A800B it says:
"1080P/24fps Mode"
"This function displays the full 1080P@24Hz native HD signals which have 24 frames per second with minimal scene distortions, as in a movie. Though the difference is small, this function implements the highest screen quality."
"You can adjust 1080P/24 Frame mode in [HDMI 1] and [HDMI 2] modes only."
"1) Off : Displays scenes where 24 frames are lengthened to 60 frames. Because of this process, irregular scenes may be generated."
"2) On : Displays scenes where 24 frames are lengthened to 48 frames. All scenes are displayed regularly without any irregular scenes."
The following is a Link to the Samsung SP-A800B manual:
This $12,999.99 Samsung SP-A900B 1080P ceiling mounted Front Projector will properly display 1080P/24 signals at 48HZ just like a film projector. This Samsung SP-A900B 48HZ DLP Projector has a high brightness mode and even on the high brightness mode there is still no visible flicker at 48HZ. (Some brands and models of flat screens that use 48HZ refresh rate have an unwatchable flicker or visible flicker at 48HZ since flat screens are much brighter than a film projector or home Front projector).
What is disappointing is that the $12,999.99 Samsung SP-A900B has a poor video processor that failed all the deinterlacing tests that Home Theater magazine performed. The $500 OPPO BDP-83 BLU-RAY player has a much better video processor. The SP-A900B black levels are not as deep as a 2009 JVC or 2009 Sony Front Projector that uses LCOS technology. On top of that this Samsung projector has more visible rainbow issues compared to other DLP projectors according to the review.
There are advantages to this Samsung DLP projector like almost perfect color reproduction, excellent detail, and higher brightness output for those that have super large screens.
The following are select quotes from the review
"The Samsung accepts 1080p/24 sources and displays them at a refresh rate of 48 frames per second by repeating each frame twice. If you’re concerned that this might produce visible flicker, it did not."
"The DLP color wheel has six segments, and the exhaust fan vents to the side through an opening that also allows a little light to leak from the case (undesirable but acceptable)."
"The Samsung’s video processing was disappointing. It failed all of our deinterlacing tests (see the “Video Test Bench” chart). Moiré was also visible on our real-world tests from Mission: Impossible III on Blu-ray (the brick wall in chapter 7 and the stairs in chapter 8). And the diagonal ropes in the sailing ship’s rigging on the Spears & Munsil High Definition Benchmark Blu-ray Disc were loaded with jaggies."
"One other concern is DLP rainbows. I can’t come down too hard on the Samsung here; this is an artifact that’s common to one degree or another in all single-chip DLP displays that use a color wheel. On the Samsung, most likely because of its brightness, the rainbows were a bit more intrusive than average for a DLP design. Some people are highly sensitive to rainbows, while others never see them. They are most visible in dark scenes with bright highlights, particularly when the highlights are moving. An acid test for rainbows is in chapter 7 of Stargate: Continuum, where the characters wave flashlights as they move around in the otherwise dark gloom of a ship’s cargo hold."
"However, in other important respects, the Samsung offers exemplary performance. Its color is essentially flawless, with spot-on color tracking and a nearly perfect HD color gamut."
"The Samsung had superior resolution of detail, but it took a lot of looking at the sharpest program material to spot the differences. On the other hand, the Sony clearly had a deeper, darker black level and nearly as good shadow detail. But the Samsung popped a little more in the mid-brightness region."
"Conclusions"
"The Samsung’s weaknesses include a black level that’s merely average for a DLP home theater projector, video processing well below average, and rainbow artifacts that seem to be unavoidable in color-wheel-driven, single-chip DLP projectors."
"The most significant of this triple threat is the projector’s video processing. Its processing is easily bettered by at least one $500 Blu-ray player."
"You’ll be hard-pressed to find another projector in this price range that offers a more compelling combination of accurate color, pristine detail, and more than generous brightness that can fill almost any screen of a domestically practical size with a crisp, compelling image."
The new Panasonic projector PT-AE4000U handles 24p like the former model, quote:
"For crisp motion images with high resolution, users may set their frame count preference to 120 frames/1 sec from 60 frames/1sec for 60Hz video signal input, while 24 frames/sec (24p) signals are quadrupled to 96 frames/1sec by interpolating three additional frames to allow natural frame-to-frame transitions." Reference: http://www.letsgodigital.org/en/2359...c-hd-projector
Panasonics website, quote: "For 24p signal input, three frames are calculated and interpolated for each existing frame, to enable 4x speed (96-Hz) display." Reference: http://panasonic.net/avc/projector/p...features2.html
Edit:
By the way, Panasonic dropped their MSRP from $3.499 to $2.499
Last edited by gekke henkie; 11-01-2009 at 09:03 PM.
The new Panasonic projector PT-AE4000U handles 24p like the former model, quote:
"For crisp motion images with high resolution, users may set their frame count preference to 120 frames/1 sec from 60 frames/1sec for 60Hz video signal input, while 24 frames/sec (24p) signals are quadrupled to 96 frames/1sec by interpolating three additional frames to allow natural frame-to-frame transitions." Reference: www.letsgodigital.org/en/23591/panasonic-hd-projector
Panasonics website, quote: "For 24p signal input, three frames are calculated and interpolated for each existing frame, to enable 4x speed (96-Hz) display." Reference: http://panasonic.net/avc/projector/p...features2.html
Edit:
By the way, Panasonic dropped their MSRP from $3.499 to $2.499
Some people really like frame interpolation to make the image have a smooth video quality look. Hopefully this Panasonic model will also offer the repeating frame method also as a option for those that like to duplicate the way a film projector processes 24fps in the theater. In the theater frame interpolation is never used and instead the original 24fps is flashed on screen at multiplies of 24.
On the prior Panasonic PT-AE3000U when Frame Creation is turned off the projector does a true 4:4 pulldown at 96HZ. Most likely the PT-AE4000U offers the same feature. I am downloading the manual currently to see if it mentions anything regarding this.
Thanks for the info Edit
On page 20 of the instruction manual it mentions that frame creation can be turned off. I will add this projector to the list soon since it uses the same method as the prior projector.
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New Panasonic Projector
Linear Mode
