3D/2D Displays that support 3D & 2D & 24p at multiplies of the original frame rate

[gekke henkie]

Originally Posted by HDTV1080P

“For a 3D source, [...] If the source is 24 Hz and the Direct In Control is set to 48 Hz, the refresh rate is 48 Hz for each eye, for a total 3D refresh rate of 96 Hz.”

Did I miss something here? I thought that:
1. A Blu-ray 3D disc is recorded at 24p, with 24fps for the left eye, and 24fps for your right eye, ending up in a 48Hz stream (frame-sequential or dual-stream?) recorded on the disc.
2. The BD-3D player does not do anything to that stream, and outputs it the way it is.
3. The display/pj accepts that 48Hz stream input and adds pull-down to a 60p (60i?) per eye, or 120Hz in total (with 240Hz screens adding black-frame insertion, so still 'only' show 120Hz of pull-down material).

Back to the quote, if so, there does not exist a 24Hz 3D-source, but only 48Hz, or not?

[HDTV1080P]

Originally Posted by gekke henkie

Did I miss something here? I thought that:
1. A Blu-ray 3D disc is recorded at 24p, with 24fps for the left eye, and 24fps for your right eye, ending up in a 48Hz stream (frame-sequential or dual-stream?) recorded on the disc.
2. The BD-3D player does not do anything to that stream, and outputs it the way it is.
3. The display/pj accepts that 48Hz stream input and adds pull-down to a 60p (60i?) per eye, or 120Hz in total (with 240Hz screens adding black-frame insertion, so still 'only' show 120Hz of pull-down material).

Back to the quote, if so, there does not exist a 24Hz 3D-source, but only 48Hz, or not?

This entire 3D technology standards can be very complicated to understand for both the average consumer and professionals that deal with it every day. In the Cinema all 3D sources currently are 2K at 48fps, and then becomes a 2K 144fps image when the original frame is repeated 3 times and flashed on the screen (Once the glasses are put on each eye sees 72fps). There are different technologies and glasses used in different Cinemas but most of them use a Polarization type system. Some theaters use two separate 2K Digital projectors while others use one 4K projector that outputs two 2K images per each eye on top of each other at the same time. In general the two separate 2K projector systems like what is used in IMAX 3D are better since the image does not loose brightness. In the professional Cinema the 3-D source is a full bandwidth 2K 24fps technology for each eye (48fps total). This is done by using a digital playback device that has two separate digital outputs carrying a left 2K 24fps image and a right 2K 24fps image. Each 2K 24fps image is flashed on the screen 3 times to produce a total of 144fps (72fps for each eye).

The Blu-ray format did not go with a new super high speed digital interface that carries two separate full bandwidth 1080P 24fps images per each eye on one digital connector. A full bandwidth 1080P technology would have needed a 100GB multi-layer Blu-ray disc technology. So that theoretical ideal system was not used.

Instead the Blu-ray format uses Frame Packed 3D technology with lossless audio over one HDMI 1.4 digital connector. Some Blu-ray players like the Sony PS3 can do 3D over HDMI 1.3 with reduced lossy audio quality. Blu-ray uses a lossy compressed 1080P video image that is better than anything else currently available to consumers. Lossless audio is bit for bit the same as the studio master. Maybe one day in the far future consumers might have a lossless video format that is bit for bit the same as an 8K or 4K studio master.

Both a 3D and 2D 1080P version of the same movie can be placed on the same 50GB disc, but most studios to increase the video quality release a separate high bit rate 3-D and 2-D version of the same movie. Most the new Blu-ray releases that are in 3-D include a separate 2-D Blu-ray disc in the same package to offer the best possible quality. Two seperate 50GB discs for 3-D and 2-D allows for the higher bit rates.

With the Frame Packed Blu-ray 3-D format the 3-D Blu-ray player normally has a HDMI 1.4 output and is able to read the new Multiview Video Coding which is an extension to the H.264/Mpeg-4 AVC video compression standard. This allows two 24fps camera angles to be frame packed into one 24fps image. A frame packed Blu-ray movie will contain two 1920 X 1080P 24fps images for both eyes by vertically packing each image. The frame packed image is 1920 X 2205 pixels at 24fps (The reason why the frame packing technology does not use 1920 X 2160 and uses 1920 X 2205 is because of 45 vertical pixels used as a buffer). The Blu-ray player then delivers the frame packed 1920 X 2205 24fps 3-D signal to the 3D display or 3D projector. The 3D display should be able to automatically detect the frame packed image and then it is the job of the 3D display to unpack the compressed 1920 X 2205 24fps signal. Inside the 3D Front Projector or 3D display will be a process that is used to turn that compressed frame packed 1920 X 2205 24fps signal into two separate 1920 X 1080 24fps signals. So the final result will be a true 1080P 48HZ source inside the display. Once those two 1080P 24 frames for each eye are unpacked then the 3D display is suppose to display the image at a minimum of 144HZ (72HZ for each eye). The problem is almost all consumer displays I have seen so far add 3:2 pulldown judder to each eye with 120HZ refresh rate (60HZ each eye). Even if some 3D displays in the future offer 96HZ for 3D that is still below the quality of 144HZ which is the minimum standard in all movie theaters.

To my knowledge there is only one consumer Front Projector on the market so far that offers 144fps and that high-end consumer projector costs $84,995.
https://forum.blu-ray.com/4330332-post934.html

Click the following link for a diagram on how the ideal consumer 3-D Front Projector or 3-D display should work when unpacking the frame packed 1920 X 2205 image.

http://cepro.com/images/uploads/frame_packed_3d_large.jpg

[gekke henkie]

Thanks for your great explanation. So if I understand correctly, a 3D-BD does not contain the dual-stream format (sometimes found in downloads), but basically the 3D over/under (above/below) format at full-HD resolution (some downloads/discs use a comparable format at half resolution, like the 'Magic Forest' Blu-ray 3D). Nice link, by the way.

[HDTV1080P]

Originally Posted by gekke henkie

Thanks for your great explanation. So if I understand correctly, a 3D-BD does not contain the dual-stream format (sometimes found in downloads), but basically the 3D over/under (above/below) format at full-HD resolution (some downloads/discs use a comparable format at half resolution, like the 'Magic Forest' Blu-ray 3D). Nice link, by the way.

No the Blu-ray 3-D format does not contain a full bandwidth uncompressed dual stream 1080P signal. At one time they were looking into having two HDMI connectors for dual stream but that format was not approved.

All Blu-ray 3D players use a Frame Packing technology that is sometimes called above/below, top/bottom, or over/under.

There are a few 3D side by side Blu-ray discs that works with all standard 2-D Blu-ray players but requires a 3-D display with active shutter glasses. This side by side 3-D technology provides only half of the horizontal resolution at 960 X 1080P.

The most expensive part of switching to 3D is the display. By the 2011 Christmas season 3-D Blu-ray players will most likely be selling for as low as $99.99 and 2-D Blu-ray players for as low as $49.99. Some experts claim lower prices. If inflation happens then Blu-ray players could always go up in price instead of going down.

[HDTV1080P]

There are at least 3 different Blu-ray 3-D formats in use which really confuses the consumer

There are too many Blu-ray 3-D software standards that will confuse consumers.

1. Companies have released Anaglyph Blu-ray titles that offer 1080P 3-D with any standard 2-D display and standard 2-D Blu-ray player. The old Anaglyph glasses have a poor 3-D quality when compared to the new Blu-ray 3D format that uses active shutter glasses.

2. There are a few 3D side by side Blu-ray discs that works with all standard 2-D Blu-ray players but requires a 3-D display with active shutter glasses. This side by side 3-D technology provides only half of the horizontal resolution at 960 X 1080P. With the price of 3D Blu-ray players so cheap it is hard to understand why these titles that are half the HD quality are still being released. http://www.best-3dtvs.com/what-is-side-by-side-3d/

3. The best and most popular 3-D Blu-ray standard is the Full HD Blu-ray 3-D frame packing standard that offers true 1080P 48HZ once the frames are unpacked inside the display. http://www.best-3dtvs.com/what-is-full-hd-3d-fhd3d/

I wish companies would stop making Anaglyph and side by side Blu-ray titles and stick with the Full HD Blu-ray 3D standard for all titles.

[linkgx1]

Originally Posted by HDTV1080P

There are at least 3 different Blu-ray 3-D formats in use which really confuses the consumer

There are too many Blu-ray 3-D software standards that will confuse consumers.

1. Companies have released Anaglyph Blu-ray titles that offer 1080P 3-D with any standard 2-D display and standard 2-D Blu-ray player. The old Anaglyph glasses have a poor 3-D quality when compared to the new Blu-ray 3D format that uses active shutter glasses.

2. There are a few 3D side by side Blu-ray discs that works with all standard 2-D Blu-ray players but requires a 3-D display with active shutter glasses. This side by side 3-D technology provides only half of the horizontal resolution at 960 X 1080P. With the price of 3D Blu-ray players so cheap it is hard to understand why these titles that are half the HD quality are still being released. http://www.best-3dtvs.com/what-is-side-by-side-3d/

3. The best and most popular 3-D Blu-ray standard is the Full HD Blu-ray 3-D frame packing standard that offers true 1080P 48HZ once the frames are unpacked inside the display. http://www.best-3dtvs.com/what-is-full-hd-3d-fhd3d/

I wish companies would stop making Anaglyph and side by side Blu-ray titles and stick with the Full HD Blu-ray 3D standard for all titles.

What's this Anaglyph you are talking about. Is it the red/cyan?

[HDTV1080P]

Originally Posted by linkgx1

What's this Anaglyph you are talking about. Is it the red/cyan?

Yes the anaglyph format uses the old red and blue ( or cyan) inexpensive glasses with no new equipment needed. For those that like 3-D anaglyph is better than nothing. If one owns a 3D display and 3D Blu-ray player than the frame packed Full HD Blu-ray 3-D format is better quality to watch. All 3 different 3-D formats are compatible with one that owns a 3-D TV and 3-D Blu-ray player. It would be a lot easier for consumers if 100% of all future 3-D titles were released in the frame packed Full HD Blu-ray 3-D standard. If studios wanted to they could include an anaglyph 3-D version of the movie in the same package for those consumers that do not own a 3-D display yet.

https://forum.blu-ray.com/3290848-post893.html

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Anaglyph_image

On March 8th Paramount is releasing a new 3-D title using anaglyph technology. So there are still new titles coming out in that format.

https://www.blu-ray.com/news/?id=5868

Many times the 2-D quality is better when compared to the 3-D Anaglyph technology

Quote
“Also included on the same disc is the 3D version of the film. Unfortunately, the anaglyphic presentation doesn't translate well into high definition, despite 'Coraline' being the first stop-motion picture to be filmed for that purpose. Colors lose some of their vividness, ghosting is distractingly frequent, and the image mentioned above lacks much of its sharpness. At the end of the day, it's nothing more than a gimmick for those curious to see a real 3D picture. Those experiencing the film for the first time should watch it in 2D before venturing into the third dimension. It's there merely to offer another means of enjoying the wonderful world of 'Coraline' . . . for your second viewing.”
http://bluray.highdefdigest.com/2415/coraline.html

[HDTV1080P]

The 2008 Pioneer Kuro’s are still the best in picture quality compared to any other consumer flat panel display

A few select Quotes:

"Will any 2011 TV best the 2008 Pioneer Kuro?"

“In my opinion, the most amazing thing about the TV industry is this: in more than two and a half years, no TV has delivered better picture quality than the Pioneer Kuro line of plasma TVs.”

“The short story is that Pioneer's Kuro plasmas achieved their still-unsurpassed black-level performance with the help of two technologies: "MgO crystals on top of or embedded into the phosphor layer" and "spatial discharge to initialize the panel (also to produce low light emission in first subfield)," according to xrox's summary. Neither of these technologies has been implemented in 2010 plasmas, including those of Panasonic. “



Read more: http://news.cnet.com/8301-17938_105-20034816-1.html#ixzz1ErmFdRDl

[HDTV1080P]

Why 144fps is used in 3-D Cinemas around the world

In commercial 3-D cinemas that use a single DLP projector configured for RealD, a 48Hz 3-D native source will always be flashed on the screen at a minimum of 144fps since engineers have discovered that when 96Hz is used a flicker is seen on the screen by 50% of the people. If the 3-D image is flashed on the screen at 120HZ by a DLP Projector most people will not see the flicker but instead experience unnatural 6:4 pulldown (3:2 pulldown judder for each eye). So all RealD 3-D Cinemas that use a DLP projector flash the 3-D image on the screen at a minimum of 144fps to completely eliminate flicker and 3:2 pulldown issues.


Flat panel 3-D plasma screens are much brighter compared to front projectors, do to the brighter screen on a plasma screen some people have seen flicker at 120HZ with 3:2 pulldown issues. Hopefully future 3-D plasma screens will operate at 144HZ or 192HZ to offer flicker free 3-D performance with no 3:2 pulldown for each eye. DLP and Plasma displays with their fast response times are ideal for 3-D. Some other technologies might take several years to offer good quality 3-D. LCD technology at 240Hz inserts black frames into the 3-D image which results in 60Hz for each eye using 3:2 pulldown. Perhaps future LCD screens with true native 480Hz refresh rates might be able to do 3-D without 3:2 pulldown judder for each eye.

In the commercial cinemas all 3-D movies are currently shown at 2K quality instead of 4K quality. There are many different technologies in the cinemas used to delivery 3-D. In a Digital 3-D IMAX system the image on the screen does not lose brightness compared to other 3-D systems since IMAX digital uses two 2K projectors that are projected over each other. 3-D technologies that use a single 4K projector produce an image that is sometimes half as bright compared to a two 2K projector system. Sometimes brighter lamps are used in higher quality 4K projectors in some 3-D theaters to make the image on the screen comparable to a two 2K projector system. With a 4K SXRD projector that shows a 3-D movie, the left eye sees 2K and the right eye sees 2K when the polarized glasses are on.

Perhaps one day a 3-D consumer 4K projector might be released. The advantage of a 4K LCOS 3-D projector for the consumer market is that it would offer full 2K or 1080P quality when watching 3-D programs with the ability to use very low cost passive polarized glasses. Passive Polarized glasses on a RealD system are completely flicker free with excellent color accuracy when used on a DLP Front Projector that is 144fps. Passive glasses are also easier on the eyes compared to active shutter glasses.

The following are some interesting quotes from pages 46 and 47 of the February 2011 Widescreen Review magazine

“Typically when you see them in the theater they’re operating at 144 Hz. The reason for that? We’re back to 24p, which is the actual framerate that the content resides in, and 144 Hz is what we refer to as triple-flash. So you’re seeing the left eye triple-flash, so 24 times 3 equals 72, plus the right eye triple-flash, 24 times 3 equals 72, so combine 72 left eye and 72 right eye, the projector operates at 144 Hz. A modulator that sits in front of the projector – and it’s actually operating synchronized with that so it’s switching polarization realtime – so that you’re seeing left and right eye information sequentially. And it allows you to use passive glasses, but it requires a silver screen. The general feedback from most users is that they find passive glasses the most comfortable, because they’re lighter and they physically don’t switch. There’s no power to them. You don’t have to worry about ‘are the glasses on?’ There’s no emitters. There’s no challenges like that. In a professional, non-consumer world, medical imaging technicians will only use passive glasses. Primarily because when they’re doing research-oriented work, they find that they are actually over a period of time sensitive to the switching of the glasses, where with passive they don’t see that.”

“The advantage of a single projector that can operate at 144 Hz, basically, is that you can do any of those technologies. We could do passive, we could do active, or we could do passive/active.”

“Today, if you’ve got a Blu-ray Disc player, most of them, when operating in 3-D mode at full resolution, it outputs 24p. Effectively, in that timeframe you’re getting left-eye information and right-eye in a shorter time interval – effectively 48 Hz. So left eye and right-eye combined at 24p. We triple-flash that so the projector actually operating at 144 Hz. Why? Because if we only double flash, 48 and 48, you get 96, you literally start to see flicker. Again, you get down to the dynamics of the human eye. Fifty percent of people at 96 Hz wouldn’t see flicker. Fifty percent would see flicker. When you up it to 120 Hz, basically nobody sees it. At 144 Hz, for sure, nobody sees it. But if we stayed at 120 Hz, you’d have to basically get back to some derivative of 3-2 pulldown. If you go 144 Hz, it’s natural – triple flash. And the beauty of active is that we use exactly the same screen for 2D as 3D. So there’s no need to change the screen.”

[HDTV1080P]

Epson PowerLite Home Cinema 8350 and 8700 UB Front Projectors both properly display 1080p/24 signals like a film projector

According to page 39 of the Epson manual the 8350 does a true 2:2 pulldown for 1080p/24 material when 2-2 pulldown is turned on in the menu. So when 2-2 pulldown is turned on in the Epson 8350 the projector will refresh a 1080p/24 signal at 48HZ using the repeating frame method (Just like a film projector). When 2-2 pulldown is turned off in the menu the Epson 8350 will convert 1080p/24 material to 60Hz using 3:2 pulldown.

According to page 39 in the same Epson instruction manual, the Epson 8700 UB will display 1080p/24 source material at 96HZ when 4:4 pulldown is turned on. Turning off 4:4 pulldown switches the projector to 3:2 pulldown 60HZ. Now when 4-4 pulldown is turned off and frame interpolation is turned on, 60HZ sources are refreshed at 120Hz.

User's Guide

[HDTV1080P]

The BENQ W5000 most likely will display 1080p/24 signals at 48Hz

Even though I am no longer maintaining the list, I wanted to let people know that evidence is starting to appear that the W5000 most likely will display 1080p/24 signals at 48Hz just like a film projector.

1. I found the following link online that mentions that the BENQ W5000 displays 1080p/24 signals at 48Hz. You may need to use a language converter to read the link. I am having trouble copying and pasting the link, sorry.
http://www.dustin.se/ErrorPages/Gene...ctdetails.aspx

2. I also received a private message from a BENQ W5000 owner who claimed that when they connected a 1080p/24 source up to the projector and went into the service menu that the refresh rate is 48Hz.

[HDTV1080P]

Runco D-73d 3-D projection system (March 2011 Sound and Vision Review link)

This amazing 3-D projector is the first consumer projector that operates like a Digital IMAX 3-D system.

1080P/24 material is flashed on the screen at 24Hz with no flicker (no black time). A 48Hz 3-D signal is displayed at the same time (One projector displays left eye 24fps image and the other projector displays right eye 24fps image at the same time)

The passive glasses on the Runco offer full 1080P quality for each eye

The following Sound and Vision magazine web link is an interesting read. This new dual 1080P DLP Front projector from Runco costs between $49,995-$72,395 depending on options when ordering it. Since it uses two 1080P DLP projectors each eye will see full 1080P quality using low cost inexpensive passive glasses. This Runco dual DLP 1080P projector system is similar to an IMAX dual 2K projector system since the 3-D images are very bright compared to most single DLP projectors.

http://www.soundandvisionmag.com/2011/03/runco-d-73d-3d-projector


Commercial 2K DLP Projectors used in Digital IMAX theaters have no flicker at 24fps since there is no black time:

99.9% of consumer DLP projectors and all other consumer display technologies require 24fps source material to be flashed on the screen at a minimum of 48 Hz to prevent the unwatchable flicker issue from occurring (Some very bright 2-D flat panels need at least 72 Hz for no flicker). The problem with old film projectors and most consumer Digital projectors is that they can only show an image half of the time, and the other half of the time one would be shown black. It’s the “black” time that causes the flicker. If there is no “black” time there will be no flicker, no matter what the frame rate is. Think of the sun… its essentially 0 fps, and has no flicker.

Here’s a quote from Texas Instruments when they first developed their DCI projector :

“To more closely emulate the film-look in the projected image, a unique capability of the DMD was used to display the images at the standard motion picture industry rate of 24 fps. Since DLP displays are a continuous display technology, flicker-free display rates down to 24 fps are possible without the need for temporal up-sampling.”

http://focus.ti.com/download/dlpdmd/137_cinemaprog.pdf

The Christie DC2K projectors that IMAX uses are capable of triple flashing. They are in fact the same projectors commonly used by RealD. However, when they don’t have to triple flash, they don’t. When you triple flash, the bit depth of the image goes down.

http://www.christiedigital.com/en-us...projector.aspx

Here’s a quote from IMAX,
‘IMAX uses linear polarization, as it presently offers better extinction than circular. RealD uses a higher frame rate for 3D out of necessity given they use a single projector and in order to alternate between left and right eye images without undue flicker, a higher frame rate is required. This method also introduces motion artifacts given left and right eye images do not arrive at the same time.

IMAX uses dual projectors that remain calibrated to the sub pixel level to guarantee image alignment. Left and right eye images are displayed at 24fps at the same time thereby avoiding motion artifacts.

Best regards,
IMAX Corporation”

So a Digital IMAX presentation with two 2K DLP projectors will display 2K 24fps source material at 24fps. That is amazing that one can view 24fps movies at 24 HZ with no flicker at all. 3-D source material on the IMAX 3D is displayed at an effective rate of 48 Hz (One projector displays left eye 24fps image and the other projector displays right eye 24fps image at the same time). With the linear polarized glasses each eye sees 24 Hz that is flicker free. It is truly amazing that Digital IMAX with two DLP projectors can offer a flicker free presentation with 2-D at 24 Hz and 3-D at 48Hz (24Hz each eye).

[HDTV1080P]

The new 2011 JVC Front Projectors have a outstanding 2-D 1080P picture quality

** JVC black levels and contrast ratio is better than any other consumer projector on the market **

JVC is the industry leader in 2-D 1080P Front Projector picture quality. The black levels and contrast ratio of the 2011 JVC Front projectors are close to the quality of a CRT display and a discontinued Pioneer Kuro display.


It is my understanding that the JVC 2011 model of Front Projectors will properly display 2-D 1080P material at 96Hz just like a LCOS projector in the movie theater (true 4:4 pulldown). Also the 2011 JVC Front Projectors have a 120Hz Clear Motion Drive option that uses an algorithm to add new frames also called “frame interpolation”. That option can be turned off. See following post regarding the 3-D frame rates.

The 6 2011 JVC Front Projector models available

1. JVC DLA-X3 $4,499.95 (retail) with 50,000:1 native contrast ratio.

2. JVC DLA-X7 $7,999.95 (retail) with 70,000:1 native contrast ratio.

3. JVC DLA-X9 $11,999.95 (retail) with 100,000:1 native contrast ratio.

4. JVC DLA-RS40U $4,495 (retail) with 50,000:1 native contrast ratio (Estimated mail order price around $3,145).

5. JVC DLA-RS50U $7,995 (retail) with 70,000:1 native contrast ratio (Estimated mail order price around $5,195).

6. JVC DLA-RS60U $11,995 (retail) with 100,000:1 native contrast ratio (Estimated mail order price around $7,195).

Select quotes from the March 2011 Sound and Vision magazine review on the JVC DLA-X7 3-D Front Projector

“This projector delivers image depth that other displays just can’t match — and that’s without the 3D turned on.”

“To understand the greatness of JVC’s DLA-X7 projector, it’s important to understand contrast ratio. Every TV and projector company rattles on about a million-to-one this and a billion-to-one that. How come? Because there’s no standard method to measure it. Result: Manufacturers can pretty much make up whatever they want.”

“That’s where the greatness of the DLA-X7 comes in. A few display types have a legitimately good intra-scene contrast ratio. Tube-type TVs were brilliant at it. Same thing with Pioneer’s vaunted Kuro plasmas. To an extent, LED-backlit LCD TVs with local dimming do a pretty good job, too. JVC’s D-ILA projectors have also been consistently impressive performers. They get better and better with every generation, and the X7 is no exception. A treat for the eyes.”

“BOTTOM LINE

The JVC DLA-X7 is a staggeringly good projector. Its black level is among the best regardless of technology, but most important, this black level is achieved while simultaneously giving off bright whites. The resulting contrast ratio is hopelessly habit-forming and puts nearly all other displays to shame. Combine that with solid video processing and 3D performance, near-infinite setup adjustments, and highly accurate color, and you have a winner.”

http://www.soundandvisionmag.com/tests-reviews/hdtvsprojectors/2011/03/test-report-jvc-dla-x7-3d-d-ila-projector

[HDTV1080P]

Updated to offer the most accurate information:

JVC’s new 2011 Front Projectors are not offering the 144fps Cinema quality 3-D mode

Noticeable Flicker issue reported in 3D mode (according to one review)

After reading over instruction manuals, reviews, and spec sheets the 2011 JVC Front Projectors are using the exact same 96Hz and 120Hz frame rates that the 2010 2-D Front Projector models use. No 144Hz mode for the 2011 models.

In the movie theaters a minimum of 144fps is used (72fps for each eye) to offer a flicker free 3-D image without 3:2 pulldown issues. To offer the best possible flicker free 3-D quality the JVC projectors should have designed a 144fps mode or 192fps mode.

It is my understanding that the JVC 2011 model of Front Projectors will properly display 2-D 1080P material at 96Hz just like a LCOS projector in the movie theater (true 4:4 pulldown). Also the 2011 JVC Front Projectors have a 120Hz Clear Motion Drive option that uses an algorithm to add new frames also called “frame interpolation”. That option can be turned off.

** The 2011 JVC Front Projectors are using 96Hz when in 3-D mode **

All or most existing consumer plasma flat panels are using 120Hz (60Hz for each eye). 3:2 pulldown judder will be produced for each eye when watching a 3-D Blu-ray movie (3-D Blu-ray is 48Hz once the frames are unpacked by the display). Some people also see flicker on 120Hz displays once and a while. No one sees flicker on a 3-D projector that has 144fps.

It has been well documented by projector engineers that when in the 3-D mode, a 96Hz projector will produce a visible flicker on the screen when viewed by 50% of the population. 50% of the people would see a flicker and 50% would not see the flicker when 96fps is used for 3-D. JVC is using 96Hz for 3-D instead of 144Hz or 192Hz. Click the following link for details: https://forum.blu-ray.com/4618174-post958.html

Noticeable flicker reported in the review of the JVC DLA-X3 Front Projector when in 3-D mode

Quote
“With 3D, there’s a dichotomy between minimizing flicker and preventing ghosting or shadowing. Ideally, there should be maximum stereoscopic separation between the intended left and right eye images, but with no overlap between the two, which causes ghosting. With the JVC, there’s some noticeable flicker, possibly indicating some dead time between the shuttering back and forth of the left and right images, but the amount of flicker isn’t any more than that seen with the current crop of 3D HDTV flat panels that also use active shutter 3D glasses technology. However, the relatively small amount of flicker seen here is a worthwhile tradeoff for a vivid 3D picture that is completely devoid of ghosting, which is a far greater transgression in my opinion.”

http://www.avguide.com/review/jvc-dla-x3-3d-d-ila-projector-tpv-99?page=1

** I am hoping that the 2012 models of 3-D JVC projectors will use either 144fps (72fps for each eye) or 192fps (96fps for each eye) for 3-D mode. **

[HDTV1080P]

1080P 120Hz LCD flat panel screens with LED backlighting are now under $450

(True 5:5 pulldown)

It is amazing how cheap LCD flat panels with LED backlighting can be purchased for now. The LG 32LE5300 will properly display 2-D 1080p/24 signals from a Blu-ray player when Truemotion is turned off and Real Cinema is turned on. One can purchase a LG 32LE5300 32 inch 1080P LCD screen with Cinema quality 5:5 pulldown for only $449.98 from Amazon.

http://www.amazon.com/gp/product/B0039RWAVS?ie=UTF8&tag=tvpredictions-20&linkCode=xm2&camp=1789&creativeASIN=B0039RWAVS

http://www.lg.com/us/products/docume...32LE5300-5.pdf (LG PDF spec sheet)

This year there might be a lot more 1080P flat screens for under $500 that supports 1080p/24 signals at multiplies of the original frame rate when playing Blu-ray discs. A year or two ago it was hard to find a 32 inch LCD flat panel screen with LED backlighting for under $1,200 that offered true 5:5 pulldown.

[HDTV1080P]

Email sent to Digital Projection Technical support

As far as I am aware the Titan Reference projector is the only 1080P 3-D consumer display that offers Cinema quality 144fps.
https://forum.blu-ray.com/4330332-post934.html

I just sent the following email to see if the Digital Projection company offers any lower end or higher end projectors with the 144fps feature:

“TO: Digital Projection Technical support
Your company currently makes at least 7 models of 1080P 3-D Front Projectors ranging in price between $17,995 to $144,995. I have read that the $84,995 Titan Reference Projector will take a frame packed 3-D Blu-ray source and refresh the image on the screen at 144fps (72fps for each eye) just like a professional cinema projector.

Are there any other models of 3-D Front Projectors that offer the 144HZ mode when feed a 3D Blu-ray source material?

Thanks for your time.”

[HDTV1080P]

Digital Projection HIGHlite Cine 260 HC 3 chip DLP 1080P Projector

(May 2011 Home Theater magazine review)

This is one of the cheapest 3 chip DLP Front Projectors on the market. The 2-D 1080P Digital Projection HIGHLITE Cine 260 HC costs $29,995. Many 3 chip DLP projectors can cost over $50,000+. At under $30,000 this is considered a lower-end 3 chip DLP projector. Single chip DLP projectors are a lot cheaper at the $2,000-$15,000+ price range but have rainbow issues and have a dimmer picture. This projector will properly display a 1080p/24 2-D Blu-ray source material at 72Hz just like a professional movie theater projector (This projector is 2-D only with no 3-D features). If one needs Blu-ray 3-D at 144HZ then a Titan Reference Projector for $84,995 will handle 3-D properly.

Select quotes from the May 2011 Home Theater magazine review

(Review located on pages 46-49)

“The projector refreshes a 1080p/24 image at 72 hertz, the additional frames required are simply repeated real frames. There are no frame-interpolation modes. A 1080p/60 signal (or an interlaced signal that the projector first converts to 60p) refreshes at 60 Hz.”

“Most home projectors use a single DMD, and a rapidly rotating color filter wheel with multiple, different colored segments adds the color.” “But the color wheel is a cost-saving compromise. If you instead use three separate DMD’s, one for each primary color (red, green, and blue), you’ll get a brighter image and also eliminate the rainbow artifacts characteristic of single-chip DLP projectors."

“The measured black level simply isn’t up to (or should I say down to) the level of the best home theater projectors, particularly LCOS and LCD displays from the likes of JVC, Sony, and Epson. Even the best single-chip DLPs can do better.” “But that’s the nature of most three-chip DLP projectors. They are exceptionally bright, but that brightness comes at the cost of less than pristine blacks in the darkest scenes.”

http://www.hometheater.com/content/d...ojector-page-2

[HDTV1080P]

The May 2011 Home Theater magazine has an excellent review on the JVC DLA-X7 and DLA-X3 Front Projectors

(96Hz used for both 2-D and 3-D Blu-ray’s)

** I am hoping that the 2012 models of 3-D JVC projectors will use either 144fps (72fps for each eye) or 192fps (96fps for each eye) for 3-D mode. **

For several years JVC has been known as the technology leader in deep black levels with the best 2-D 1080P Front Projector picture quality. The JVC DLA-X9 and DLA-RS60U are JVC’s flagship Front Projectors for 2011. For under $12,000 one can experience the best 2-D 1080P picture quality that outperforms the quality of projectors costing $30,000-$50,000+.

Best performance screen size for 3D is 90 inches diagonal (16:9) according to JVC. All the new 2011 JVC Front Projectors have 96Hz and 120Hz modes just like the 2010 models. The 120Hz mode is for people that want to use frame interpolation with 2-D material. The 96Hz mode offers a completely flicker free Cinema quality 2-D performance with 1080p/24 2-D Blu-ray discs. The JVC 2011 front projectors also use 96Hz (48Hz each eye) for 3-D Blu-ray source material. The May 2011 Home Theater magazine reviews on the DLA-X7 and DLA-X3 in general were very positive on the 3-D performance. It has been well documented by projector engineers that 144fps is the minimum refresh rate that needs to be used to bypass the 3:2 pulldown issue and to insure that 100% of the population sees a 3-D image that is flicker free. It is true that 96Hz bypasses the 3:2 pulldown issue, but none of the 3-D projectors in the local Cinemas refresh images at 96Hz since around 50% of the population would see a flicker. So my point is that some people see flicker issues on 3-D images that are refreshed at 96Hz (48Hz for each eye). The May Home Theater magazine review for the DLA-X7 briefly mentions that the 3-D refresh rate is “low-“ish”, but they claim they never saw any distracting flicker. This other JVC review mentions some noticeable flicker at 96Hz when viewing 3-D material. Click the following link for details: https://forum.blu-ray.com/4564743-post954.html

So the JVC Front Projectors are the leader in 2-D 1080P picture quality but when it comes to 3-D picture quality the Titan Reference Projector which also has excellent black levels with 144HZ is the current Industry leader. Of course the Titan Reference Projector is priced at $84,995 which is out of the price range of what most consumers would be willing to spend on a Front Projector. The JVC 2011 consumer Front Projectors under $12,000 are a real bargain. If the 2012 line of second generation 3-D JVC Front Projectors were to offer a 144HZ or 192HZ mode for 3-D then the product would be close to perfect. In the local movie theaters 2-D images are always flashed on the screen at a minimum of 48HZ and 3-D images are flashed on the screen at a minimum of 144HZ. Consumer Front Projectors that offer 48HZ or higher refresh rates for 2-D have been available for years, it does not make since that the majority of consumer electronics companies are selling people 3-D displays that are below the refresh rate of what one experiences in the cinema.

Select quotes from the May 2011 Home Theater magazine review on the JVC DLA-X7

(review located on pages 54-57)

“With 1080p/24 2D sources, the DLA-X7 repeats frames for a refresh rate of 96 hertz. While it also displays 1080p/24 Blu-ray 3D at 96 Hz, that’s effectively 48 Hz to each eye with the shutter glasses. That’s low-ish, but I still never saw any distracting flicker through the 3D glasses. This is the first JVC I’ve reviewed with Clear Motion Drive, a 120-Hz mode that offers frame interpolation or black-frame insertion. I’m not a fan of these features, and this was no exception.” “I disengaged this feature during the review period.”

“State-of-the-art blacks and contrast”

http://www.hometheater.com/content/j...a-3d-projector

Select quotes from the May 2011 Home Theater magazine review on the JVC DLA-X3

(review located on pages 58-61)

“Could be brighter”

“The only problematic Blu-ray 3D title I encountered was Universal’s Despicable Me. For some reason, ghosting was an ongoing issue with this disc. We had the chance to compare the performance of the DLA-X7 with the DLA-X3 on this title, and the DLA-X7 didn’t show the ghosting artifacts that the DLA-X3 did”

“In the DLA-X3, it is truly amazing that JVC has been able to improve on their 2D performance and deliver exceptional 3D performance with their freshman effort, all at a price of $4,495. Just a few short years ago, this level of 2D performance wasn’t possible for less than $10,000, and I never dreamed that you’d be able to get into 3D near this price point – especially with this level of performance.”

http://www.hometheater.com/content/j...a-3d-projector

[HDTV1080P]

240HZ Sony BRAVIA VPL-VW90ES SXRD 3-D Front Projector

(May 2011 Home Theater magazine review)

** 3-D source material is most likely at 120HZ (60HZ for each eye), but that is only a theory and not a fact **

When I heard that Sony just released a 240Hz 3-D Front Projector for $9,999 I became very excited since currently that is the fastest 3-D Projector on the market and in theory might be able to handle 3-D Blu-ray sources at the correct multiplies of the original 3-D frame rate without 3:2 pulldown. According to the Home Theater magazine review the Sony VPL-VW90ES will properly refresh a 2-D 1080P signal at 192Hz when Motionflow is turned off. The Sony will do a true 8:8 pulldown for 2-D 1080P/24 source material just like a professional SXRD Cinema Front Projector. When a 1080P/60 source is received with Motionflow turned off the Sony operates at 240Hz. What is disappointing is the Home Theater magazine review does not mention what the 3D refresh rate is when a frame packed 3D Blu-ray signal is received. Instead of offering a true 144Hz, 192Hz, or 240Hz repeating frame method for 3-D, it is possible this projector uses a method similar to the 3-D 240Hz Sony LCD flat panel screens. It is a possibility that this Sony 240Hz 3-D projector will operate with frame interpolation and black frame insertion at 240Hz. If that is true then once the black frames are inserted between the original frames then the projector is really displaying 120Hz, and then once the active shutter glasses are used one is only seeing 60Hz for each eye with 3:2 pulldown judder for each eye. It would be awesome if this projector were to offer true 240Hz, 192Hz, or 144Hz with the repeating frame method in 3-D mode. Perhaps in the future Sony or another professional review will release this information.

Select quotes from the May 2011 Home Theater magazine review

(review located on pages 50-53)

“The VPL-VW90ES can operate at refresh rate of up to 240 hertz – faster than most other home theater projectors we’ve aware of. This enhances the performance of Motionflow, Sony’s motion smoothing feature.”

“Motionflow consists of two separate processes that you can use either together or separately: Film Projection and Motion Enhancer. Motion Enhancer (Off, Low, and High) performs frame interpolation. It inserts interpolated frames between real frames until it reaches the desired refresh rate. Film Projection either adds black frames between the original frames as needed (Mode 1) or alternates frames with dark and light gamma curves (Mode 2). Interpolation (Motion Enhancer) can smooth film-based sources, but it also makes them look like video. Used alone, Film Projection can improve motion slightly without this soap-opera look but at the cost of reduced brightness, particularity with dark frames inserted (Mode 1). These features work as advertised, and you may like one or both of them. I left them off for this review.”

“With Motionflow off and a 2D 1080p/24 source, the Sony operates at a refresh rate of 192 Hz (8 x 24 Hz); the projector repeats the extra frames needed to reach 192 Hz rather than interpolate them. With a 1080p/60 source (or a 1080i/30 source deinterlaced to 1080p/60 either externally or by the projector), the VPL-VW90ES refreshes at 240 Hz."

“The inevitable loss of brightness with 3D playback is a significant negative with the Sony projector. But this has been the case with most of the affordable 3D displays I’ve seen.”

“The VPL-VW90ES is an outstanding home theater projector. It’s the best Sony has yet built and the best I’ve yet reviewed.”

http://www.hometheater.com/content/s...d-3d-projector

[HDTV1080P]

Here is a list of every consumer 3-D display on the market that displays 3-D Blu-ray movies on the screen at 144fps

In the movie theater the 2K 48Hz 3-D source is tripled flashed on the screen at 144fps to offer a flicker free comfortable 3-D experience. Both the Blu-ray 3D side by side and Blu-ray true 1080P 3-D frame packed formats are 48Hz once the display unpacks the frames. Then if one owns a display that triple flashes the 48Hz signal they will be able to experience the original 3-D quality of 144fps (72fps each eye) that is found in the professional movie theaters.

Click the following link for a diagram on how the ideal consumer 3-D Front Projector or 3-D display should work when unpacking the frame packed 1920 X 2205 image.

http://cepro.com/images/uploads/frame_packed_3d_large.jpg

True 3-D 1080P Front Projectors with 144Hz

TITAN Reference 1080p-3D (109-324) (144Hz for 3-D 48Hz sources, 72Hz for 2-D 24Hz sources) $84,995 Flagship model

TITAN 1080p 3D-L (110-403) (144Hz for 3-D 48Hz sources, 72Hz for 24Hz sources)

TITAN 1080p 3D-P (109-583) (144Hz for 3-D 48Hz sources, 72Hz for 24Hz sources)

TITAN 1080p 3D-L UC (110-657) (144Hz for 3-D 48Hz sources, 72Hz for 24Hz sources)

TITAN 1080p 3D-P UC (109-322) (144Hz for 3-D 48Hz sources, 72Hz for 24Hz sources)

TITAN 1080p Dual 3D (109-323) (144Hz for 3-D 48Hz sources, 72Hz for 24Hz sources) $64,995

TITAN 1080p Dual 3D Ultra Contrast (109-324) (144Hz for 3-D 48Hz sources, 72Hz for 24Hz sources) $66,995


Also the above projectors are all 3 Chip DLP models that have no rainbow issues.


Quote from page 4.58 (110) of the User manual

“If the 3D video is available only at low frame rates, it will be necessary to multiply
the frame rate to obtain a flicker-free image. For example, a 60Hz frame rate can be
doubled to 120Hz, or a 48Hz frame rate could be tripled to 144Hz.”

Titan 1080p 3D_Rev B_User Manual


The Digital Projection company is a very professional company. Their customer service appears to be comparable to OPPO Digital Inc customer service. They replied to my email within 24 hours.
Quote from email:

“Hi XXXXXXXXXXXXX,
All of the Titan 3D models can display a maximum refresh rate of 144 Hz.
They have a capability to multiple the frame rate from 1 to 3 times.
As an example, if the Blu-ray player is outputting side-by-side or frame-packing formats of 3D at a rate of 24 Hz, since each frame sent by the Blu-ray player contains 2 images (left eye and right eye), the effective rate is 48 Hz.

The projector can multiple that by 3 and display the content at 144 Hz.
However, if the Blu-ray is outputting 60 Hz the effective rate would be 120 Hz. At this rate of input, the projector cannot multiply the rate or it will exceed 144 Hz, so it is left at 120 Hz.
I hope this answers your questions,
XXXXXXXX


XXXXXXXXXXXXXX
Digital Projection, Inc”.

Click here for a detailed review and information on the Flagship TITAN Reference 1080P-3d projector

Why 144fps is used in 3-D Cinemas around the world