Star Wars: The Original Trilogy (1977-1983)

[ChainsawJedi]

Originally Posted by Bobbyjoe766

Screw him. Karma is beautiful. Now he’s getting a taste of the same sense of betrayal that fans have been dealing with since the 1997 abominations supplanted the historic originals.

Astonishingly stupid comment. Congratulations.

[ChainsawJedi]

Originally Posted by EvaDK

For all we know, Lucas' intention with writing script treatments for a sequel trilogy storyline and holding talks with Ford, Hamill and Fisher, was nothing more than his strategy to increase the price tag of Lucasfilm when Disney bought it from him.

People forget that this is the director turned business CEO who almost singlehandedly created the concept of film merchandising. George Lucas is a very capable businessman.

Films are made to make money. What a revelation, eh?

[Ernest Rister]

Originally Posted by EvaDK

For all we know, Lucas' intention with writing script treatments for a sequel trilogy storyline and holding talks with Ford, Hamill and Fisher, was nothing more than his strategy to increase the price tag of Lucasfilm when Disney bought it from him.

People forget that this is the director turned business CEO who almost singlehandedly created the concept of film merchandising. George Lucas is a very capable businessman.

There was this guy from the midwest named Frizzney or Prisney or something who maintained his independence by selling character merchandise, spent more on his short films than they could earn but used character merchandise profits to keep ownership of his productions and create more films, films aimed at general audiences and families, long before George Lucas was born. Wish I could remember his name.

Anyway, in all seriousness, when Lucas and Iger started to talk about LucasFilm finding a home under the Disney umbrella, Lucas in fact *did not* want to show his treatments for the sequel trilogy to Iger or Alan Horn. It was a sticking point, because Iger wanted to know what he was buying. Lucas eventually relented and allowed ultimately four people at Disney to read them, Iger said he was excited by the story possibilities while not saying "Oh, we're definitely going to make these stories". Lucas agreed finally to the sale, but never did Iger say they were going to make those films, and a story brain trust quickly got to work along with an overhaul of LucasFilm Ltd. If Lucas has regrets today, I say this with all affection and understanding, Lucas is cut straight from Walt's mode, from personal issues with his old man to the business savvy, and especially the nagging sense that nothing was ever good enough. Unlike Walt, though, Lucas continued trying to revisit and plus his films saying films aren't finished, only abandoned, while Walt did what he could on his films and then moved on to the next one. Walt wasn't a look back guy, he was always on to some other new project, and that's the key difference (for me) between the two. Lucas would still be futzing with his films, nothing ever good enough, films not finished only abandoned, etc., while Walt was able to let things go and tackle producing more films. Not saying either approach is right, only saying that's the big difference between Walt and George, even though they have a whole lot in common.

I still think, as amazing as it is to consider, that Lucas' biggest contribution to cinema isn't really Star Wars, it's his dedication to taking filmmaking out of the hands of the studios and making it an affordable art form -- democratizing filmmaking -- by investing in technology. From digital editing to digital photography to the digital back lot. I think all filmmakers of today owe a huge debt to Lucas. Not saying no one else could have done what he did, but Lucas was the guy who did it. People can say what they want about his films, but I don't think there's any argument about his impact on the tools people now use to make films. When you have people shooting and even editing films on their phones...people don't credit Lucas with that, but he was a big factor in bringing the concept of affordable film craft to people, and shattering the control the studios had on the tools of film craft. That's a pretty big deal. Coppola used to talk about that -- he said once you made film craft available to those who previously couldn't afford to produce their own work, you were eventually going to find Mozart. Orson Welles' biggest problem in life wasn't his talent, it was money. It's been said a zillion times by now, but raising money is the biggest obstacle to young people trying to make their own films, and even the biggest problem for seasoned veterans. Lucas and Coppola were committed to that goal of trying to bring costs down and thereby allowing more voices into the game. I'll always respect Lucas for that, and when he said he knows that despite everything he's done, the words on his tombstone are going to be "George Lucas, creator of Star Wars", I'd argue his commitment to making film craft accessible and affordable is a greater legacy that's going to bear fruit for a long time to come.

[mikeyfridebuzz]

It's obvious when Lucas says that he passed the "treasure trove", including his treatments of episodes 7 through 9, on to KK and Disney to make great movies, he wasnt saying "I gave them all my ideas but I'm sure they'll just end up making a soft reboot of A New Hope instead".

[Indiana Jonezzz...]

Originally Posted by mikeyfridebuzz

It's obvious when Lucas says that he passed the "treasure trove", including his treatments of episodes 7 through 9, on to KK and Disney to make great movies, he wasnt saying "I gave them all my ideas but I'm sure they'll just end up making a soft reboot of A New Hope instead".

Yes, exactly. So was it betrayal, and Disney went back on their gentleman’s agreement, or did George just completely misinterprete what they said to him about using his treatments (which to me, seems unlikely, because he’s not an idiot, and he’s business savvy)?

[Ernest Rister]

Originally Posted by Indiana Jonezzz...

Yes, exactly. So was it betrayal, and Disney went back on their gentleman’s agreement, or did George just completely misinterprete what they said to him about using his treatments (which to me, seems unlikely, because he’s not an idiot, and he’s business savvy)?

There's nothing in the professional media that says they were going to use his treatments. Look, fellas, if you buy Coke, and the guy who invented Coke and then New Coke and everybody hates New Coke, you really just want the original Coke but you'll listen to the guy who invented Coke and New Coke, but then you cock an eyebrow and recognize the same guy made New Coke and then makes Indiana Jones and the Kingdom of New Coke, Coke Tails, and then Strange Coke and has a long history of blaming other people for not liking his post-1983-Coke and even names villains in Willow Coke after critics who don't like his Coke...c'mon, folks. Nobody here has read those treatments, they could be a page and a half long for all we know. Iger and Horn bought a brand, they're selling Coke. They aren't selling people shrunk down and talking to midichlorians New Crystal Strange Red Tails Clones Coke.

Love and admire Lucas. You have to be brave as hell to put yourself out there as an artist, and have skin thicker than granite. But hey -- if you've spent any considerable time in the performing arts, you're gonna strike out and get booed, it happens. I'm going to throw this out there -- maybe his treatments sucked. Maybe they were third-act of 2001 Kubrick mind-warping, with no chance of commercial viability. Maybe Lucas wrote something no one in their right mind would ever produce. We don't know, maybe will never know. But pretty sure Disney bought Coke, not avant-garde wacky Coke.

[Martoto]

He wouldn't have sold control of Star Wars if he was expecting them not to use that control except to do what he says. And Disney would not have paid for control if it was not for them to do what they felt was right to deliver a successful movie.

Giving each party credit for business savviness, neither of them would have entered into a gentleman's agreement the outcome of which is the opposite of the terms of the sale of control.

There's zero evidence that there was any agreement. Just a presumption of what Lucas's feelings where when he revealed that they departed from his story ideas. Even though he later clarified that he was expressing the awkwardness he felt when in the unfamiliar position of being a collaborator,
only, and not the final arbiter. And that this was the reality he chose by selling cintrol. Did he mean he'd chosen to be "betrayed" l?

[Indiana Jonezzz...]

Originally Posted by Martoto

He wouldn't have sold control of Star Wars if he was expecting them not to use that control except to do what he says. And Disney would not have paid for control if it was not for them to do what they felt was right to deliver a successful movie.

Giving each party credit for business savviness, neither of them would have entered into a gentleman's agreement the outcome of which is the opposite of the terms of the sale of control.

There's zero evidence that there was any agreement.

Well, it’s just George’s comment that he has “complete confidence that she is going to take them and make great movies", seems to strongly imply that he thought they were going to use his treatments. It seems like a pretty strange thing to say, if he didn’t think they would use them, but we’re going round in circles here and we’ll most likely never know the truth.

My personal opinion is that Disney implied to George that they’d use his treatments, probably knowing full well, that once the sale was complete, they could then do what they wanted, and ignore them. George was a bit pee’d off, and realised he didn’t really want involved anymore.

I don’t blame Disney for doing this from a business sense, as a microbiotic world doesn’t exactly scream $$$’s, but if they did imply to George that they’d use his treatments, then didn’t, well... it’s a bit of a crappy thing to have done.

[chip75]

I can't remember hearing anything that Lucas thought that Disney were going to use his treatments. I vaguely recall that Hamill, Ford and Fisher were signed on before the sale went through as well as some pre-production work with storyboards completed.

But I don't think there was ever any agreement that they were going off George's treatments and I imagine that nu-Lucasfilm were hoping to distance themselves from Lucas after the prequels, hoping to entice fans back for original feels without George's sticky fingers in the new Star Wars pie (make of that what you will).

Personally I would have being interested in seeing George's treatments adapted into a new trilogy, it might have been preferable to the making it up as we go approach we've been given.

[Hardback247]

Originally Posted by chip75

Personally I would have being interested in seeing George's treatments adapted into a new trilogy, it might have been preferable to the making it up as we go approach we've been given.

You do know that the OT was ALSO made up as it went along, right?

[Indiana Jonezzz...]

Originally Posted by chip75

I can't remember hearing anything that Lucas thought that Disney were going to use his treatments.

Not meaning to keep posting the same quote again, but George said he had “complete confidence that she is going to take them and make great movies", with “she” being Kathleen Kennedy, and “them” being his treatments for 7, 8 and 9.

Disney also demanded that Ep 7 would be released in 2015, and they weren’t prepared to wait for Michael Arndt to finish his Ep 7 script, that he’d been working on with George, because it would’ve taken another year or so to finish, thus the film wouldn’t have made a 2015 release date.

[Hardback247]

It's hard to say if any of you would actually LIKE George's ideas for the Sequel Trilogy:

George Lucas' Sequel Trilogy Idea - YouTube

[Indiana Jonezzz...]

Originally Posted by Hardback247

It's to say if any of you would actually LIKE George's ideas for the Sequel Trilogy:

George Lucas' Sequel Trilogy Idea - YouTube

I think going by the prequels, it’s possible that many people would’ve hated the films, but personally, I think it’s a missed opportunity, when the creator of Star Wars is still alive, and he’s giving you story treatments, that they chose to ignore them, and instead made a safe, retro movie, for the fans. It’s business over an artist’s creative vision, but then I know many people love the ST that they got. I just miss George’s creativity.


I think Mark Hamill is disappointed with how they treated George too:

“What I wish is that they had been more accepting of his guidance and advice. Because he had an outline for ‘7,’ ‘8,’ and ‘9’. And it is vastly different to what they have done.”

[Hardback247]

Originally Posted by Indiana Jonezzz...

I think many people would’ve probably hated the films, but personally, I think it’s a missed opportunity, when the creator of Star Wars is still alive, and he’s giving you story treatments, that they chose to ignore them, and instead made a safe, retro movie, for the fans. It’s business over an artist’s creative vision, but then I know many people love the ST that they got. I just miss George’s creativity.

It was partially BECAUSE of the vitriolic hate towards George's creative decisions as of late that forced him to sell Lucasfilm to Disney in the first place!

[chip75]

Originally Posted by Hardback247

You do know that the OT was ALSO made up as it went along, right?

It really wasn't in the sense that the new trilogy has been. Lucas had at least a rough plan for his movies, even if they were very broad strokes they were jotted down. Of course things changed along the way, that's only natural, but it was mapped out in his yellow legal pads.

I can't remember what evidence there is apart from the infamous page where Episode 1-9 is written down with spaces for brief synopses, but Hamill has mentioned Lucas giving him the gist for a sequel trilogy in the early '80s. He was planning ahead.

Episode VII was written with no plan of what was to follow and as far as I know there wasn't any outline for the trilogy at all.

[Hardback247]

Originally Posted by chip75

It really wasn't in the sense that the new trilogy has been. Lucas had at least a rough plan for his movies, even if they were very broad strokes they were jotted down. Of course things changed along the way, that's only natural, but it was mapped out in his yellow legal pads.

I can't remember what evidence there is apart from the infamous page where Episode 1-9 is written down with spaces for brief synopses, but Hamill has mentioned Lucas giving him the gist for a sequel trilogy in the early '80s. He was planning ahead.

Episode VII was written with no plan of what was to follow and as far as I know there wasn't any outline for the trilogy at all.

http://www.coronacomingattractions.c...-he-went-along

http://www.theforce.net/latestnews/s...s_19_80270.asp

[Indiana Jonezzz...]

Originally Posted by Hardback247

It was partially BECAUSE of the vitriolic hate towards George's creative decisions as of late that forced him to sell Lucasfilm to Disney in the first place!

Oh I know, but the criticisms towards the prequels were mainly regarding the direction, acting and CG, not really the story and ideas in them so much. The Clone Wars TV series became very well regarded too, so as long as Disney made the ST films technically well, I think using George’s stories could’ve worked out great. Disney needed Ep 7 to hit big though, and be popular with the fans, so they decided not to take the riskier option of breaking new ground with Star Wars, and instead chose to make a much safer, retro movie to please the fans.

It made a ton of money, and lots of people love it, so from a business standpoint, it was a good decision. But from a creative, artistic standpoint? I don’t think so, personally. Would Ep 7 based on George’s treatment have been as popular? We’ll never know, but I’m pretty sure it still would’ve made a ton of cash.

[Arawn]

The problem is that the general public internalised Prequel Derangement Syndrome as the revealed truth, so Lucas' treatments were binned instantly the moment he left the room.

[mikeyfridebuzz]

Originally Posted by Indiana Jonezzz...

Yes, exactly. So was it betrayal, and Disney went back on their gentleman’s agreement, or did George just completely misinterprete what they said to him about using his treatments (which to me, seems unlikely, because he’s not an idiot, and he’s business savvy)?

Lucas made his impression of the situation pretty crystal clear as evidenced by that interview. Kathleen sits there and doesnt support or contradict him. They either didnt take him seriously or they intended on doing thier own thing and was letting him think what he wanted.

[octagon]

Originally Posted by Indiana Jonezzz...

Well, it’s just George’s comment that he has “complete confidence that she is going to take them and make great movies", seems to strongly imply that he thought they were going to use his treatments. It seems like a pretty strange thing to say, if he didn’t think they would use them, but we’re going round in circles here and we’ll most likely never know the truth.

A) This is what he actually said...

I have story treatments of seven, eight and nine and a bunch of other movies. And obviously we have hundreds of books and comics and everything you can possibly imagine. So, you know, I've sorta [sic] moved that treasure trove of stories and various things to [Kathleen Kennedy] and have I complete confidence that she's gonna take them and make great movies.

It's easy to focus on the treatments and the treatments alone but he was talking about a lot of material.

B) They did use his treatments. Did they use every word and follow every beat? No. But a lot of stuff from his treatments has made it into the ST.

Luke training a new generation of Jedi and one of his students turning and destroying everything? In the treatments. Luke going into self-imposed exile on Coward Island? In the treatments. A plucky young female hero seeking training and nudging Luke out of his funk? In the treatments. Leia using the force for more than far-sensing? In the treatments. Palpatine? In the treatments.

Again, they might not have followed his treatments but they didn't ignore them either. And they didn't ignore him. He had pre-production role on TFA and he consulted on the TROS script.

Did they use his ideas to make exactly the movie he would have made? No. Did he have the exact role in making the new movies that he wanted? No.

Does any of that constitute a betrayal?

No.

C) His confidence was well founded because she has made two great movies with in all likelihood a third on the way. She also made one really good one and one okay one. That's a pretty decent record.

Originally Posted by mikeyfridebuzz

It's obvious when Lucas says that he passed the "treasure trove", including his treatments of episodes 7 through 9, on to KK and Disney to make great movies, he wasnt saying "I gave them all my ideas but I'm sure they'll just end up making a soft reboot of A New Hope instead".

This might be closer to the truth of the matter and it kind of undercuts the whole betrayal narrative.

This is what he had to say to Charlie Rhodes in the White Slavers interview...

Rolling Stone: George Lucas Is Not a Fan of 'Retro' Star Wars Approach

“I sold them to the white slavers that takes these things, and…,” Lucas said before laughing and deciding it better not to finish. (See the interview below. Lucas mentions the “white slavers” around the 50-minute mark)

The father of “Star Wars” also opened up about why he and Disney were split on their decisions for the franchise’s future.

“They looked at the stories, and they said, ‘We want to make something for the fans,’” Lucas said. “They decided they didn’t want to use those stories, they decided they were going to do their own thing. … They weren’t that keen to have me involved anyway — but if I get in there, I’m just going to cause trouble, because they’re not going to do what I want them to do. And I don’t have the control to do that anymore, and all I would do is muck everything up,” he said. “And so I said, ‘OK, I will go my way, and I’ll let them go their way.’”

As for how Star Wars: The Force Awakens turned out, he would have approached it differently, as he contended he did when the franchise was in his hands. “They wanted to do a retro movie. I don’t like that. Every movie, I worked very hard to make them different,” Lucas said. “I made them completely different – different planets, different spaceships to make it new.”

If his real gripe isn't that they didn't follow his treatments closely enough but rather that they made a 'retro' Star Wars movie instead of the kind of movie that he would have made what does that do to the whole betrayal narrative?

I think it rather strongly undercuts it.

Do you really think Disney made any representations to GL about whether their ST would be 'retro' or not? About things like locations and ship designs?

Do you really think they sat in these meetings and said 'oh no, George, we're definitely not going to just go the nostalgia/fan service route, that's not even on our radar, we're totally on board with making these new movies exactly how you would have made them'?

I seriously doubt it. Nobody got betrayed, nobody got shafted.

Disney and LFL just did their own thing and The Creator wasn't crazy about the direction they ultimately settled on.

In all likelihood, that's all there really is to see here.