"Club Penton" - Ask questions to Hollywood insider "Penton-Man"

[sharkshark]

Originally Posted by Doctorossi

Doesn't look that impressive to me, but maybe you've had some personal recommendations/reviews.

"Behold the Umami Burger, the namesake creation of the snazzy new burger hut on La Brea, a sandwich that rises high enough to put a mere In-N-Out 4x4 to shrinking shame."

http://www.laweekly.com/2009-03-12/e...fifth-element/

http://aht.seriouseats.com/archives/...alifornia.html

http://eatingla.blogspot.com/2009/02...of-flavor.html

[Brain Sturgeon]

Originally Posted by Penton-Man

BrainSurgeon (using NOTES in the sella yet?), I understand and respect your dilemma and I actually passed this topic onto “the powers that decide/control subs” several months ago when this issue was first brought to my attention by another concerned member.

I can float the sub placement issue again to try to energize it but, sadly I don’t know how much traction it will get, as there are apparently other factors and priorities involved (Jeff probably knows and can elaborate) rather than appeasing the tiny minority that possess “CIH systems” like you have, unfortunately.

I’ll see what I can do, nevertheless.

Brilliant! Thanks-- funny you should mention the sella. When I was at the American Assoc of Neurological Surgeons meeting in San Diego in early May, I got picked out of the crowd to do a "Board Simulation Session" as an examinee, and the case that was presented to me as an "unknown" was a woman with Acromegaly. I did okay with the pimp session, but did miss one nuance of patient care. I would've passed, but not with "honors" (back to the textbooks to study...).

Originally Posted by Penton-Man

No, I believe we already realize how most people feel about this issue and how significant it is to them plus, the postings would probably be overrun with the few but vocal fringe element expressing sentiments such as……*I want the subtitles to look exactly like they do in my public Cineplex; otherwise, I feel sooooo distracted I will not watch or buy the Blu-ray movie* - the rants of which could indeed prove counter-productive to your plea.

Oh jeez, I didn't even think of that. I can just see Xylon's screencaps now: "GD it!, they cranked up the DNR to 11 again on the subs. I would only buy it if Sony reissues it with remastered subtitles."

However, I’ll pass on the idea (of a poll) to others involved to see how much studio interest there would be for that sort of thing.

Thanks again! There certainly are BD titles out there that have all subtitles in the video frame, and I've never heard any complaint about that way of doing things from folks without scope setups-- it seems like keeping the subtitles in the video frame is the easy way of making everyone happy, if there is such a thing.

[Brain Sturgeon]

By the way, a bit of good news today:

http://www.variety.com/article/VR111...ryid=1009&cs=1

Looks like DLP will be going 4k as well. I'm guessing that Sony's push into 4k d-cinema was TI's impetus. I think it'll be good to have competition in the 4k projector category. Hopefully, this will translate into (reasonably) affordable and high quality consumer 4k projectors for those of us wanting very big (14'+) screens as the technology trickles down.

Upconverting BD players, here we come! Unless Penton can get us (or just me!) access to content from the digital "Bel-Air Circuit".

[Cinema Squid]

Originally Posted by Bobby Henderson

I'm sure I've repeated this question a couple times already, but to repeat it yet again: why can't subtitles on Blu-ray movies be adjustable in both size and placement? Surely this can't be too difficult to accomplish with all the BD Java hoopla happening in the underpinnings of the BD format.

I'll also add the observation that player-generated subtitles have generally looked pretty crappy on DVD and have not improved very much in appearance on Blu-ray. Crude, pixel jaggy garbage seems to be the standard much of the time. It would be better if Blu-ray supported some kind of scalable vector-based font technology. That could also make it easier for viewers to specify on screen placement and size of subtitles.

If I am not mistaken, subtitles on Blu-ray as well as non-Java trivia tracks, telestrator graphics, etc. are implemented as a "presentation graphics stream" (PGS) which is essentially a series of fullscreen 1920x1080 transparent bitmaps with on/off timecodes. Since the player is responsible for compositing these over the video layer, it seems possible for a given player to offer support for moving them around. However, simply shifting them horizontally/vertically would be problematic since the graphics content could be appearing anywhere on the screen. They would have to be rescaled to the desired aspect ratio which might cause legibility problems (e.g. short, fat letters), but may be a workable solution that a stand-alone or HTPC software player manufacturer could potentially build in support for.

I believe there are also text-based subtitles in the Blu-ray spec (font rendering handled by player), but as far as I know there have not been any commercial titles that have used them and they might not even work on current market players.

[sharkshark]

Penton:

http://www.engadget.com/2009/06/18/s...-ap/#continued

...any comments/more details that you can shed?

So far BD-live has indeed been pretty underwhelming for the most part, nice to see some actual film-nerd uses...

[Penton-Man]

What do I think?
I think someone (http://www.engadget.com/2009/06/18/s...the-killer-ap/)

just quoted me from last May (https://forum.blu-ray.com/showthread...er#post1936147)

That’s what I think.
Additionally, I think it will be a fine app that should be fun for cinephiles to use, who already own Blu-ray machines as well as helping to draw more mainstream folk from DVD to Blu-ray, which will just help grow the format quicker, which benefits us all.

[DenonCI]

Originally Posted by Penton-Man

What do I think?
I think someone (http://www.engadget.com/2009/06/18/s...the-killer-ap/)

just quoted me from last May (https://forum.blu-ray.com/showthread...er#post1936147)

That’s what I think.
Additionally, I think it will be a fine app that should be fun for cinephiles to use, who already own Blu-ray machines as well as helping to draw more mainstream folk from DVD to Blu-ray, which will just help grow the format quicker, which benefits us all.

That looks like a useful application. I can't tell you how many times I've watched a film and pondered who was playing a secondary role and had to venture to IMDB after the movie to smack myself in the head with a "duh" moment when I saw who they were. Kudos to Sony.

[Alan Gordon]

Originally Posted by Penton-Man

Additionally, I think it will be a fine app that should be fun for cinephiles to use, who already own Blu-ray machines as well as helping to draw more mainstream folk from DVD to Blu-ray, which will just help grow the format quicker, which benefits us all.

KUDOS to Sony!

I've been bringing up this idea since before Blu-ray/HD DVD was a year old...

Out of curiosity, why is this good for only upcoming titles. Couldn't older BD-Live releases be updated as well?

~Alan

[DenonCI]

Originally Posted by Alan Gordon

Out of curiosity, why is this good for only upcoming titles. Couldn't older BD-Live releases be updated as well?

~Alan

I think the "code" needs to be on the disc to tell it where to fetch the data. Also, it has to know who is in which scene.

[4K2K]

With a movieIQ-enabled Blu-ray Disc and an internet-connected Blu-ray™ player, movie fans can immediately access continuously-updated information on cast and crew and explore relevant trivia such as production facts, music and soundtrack information all tied to scenes within the movie

Why does the movie database feature require BD-Live/Internet connections when Blu-ray releases are on 25-50GB discs? I know it would be easier to keep an internet version more up-to-date, but a non-internet version could be as up-to-date as the newest bought release/newest one from a particular studio. I don't see why "Production facts, music and soundtrack information tied to scenes within a movie" would need an internet-connected player.

We know many people interrupt their movie-watching experience to look up the filmography of an actor or to find out more about a song playing in the background

Again couldn't this be done by putting the relevant data on the Blu-ray discs?

[syncguy]

Originally Posted by Jeff Kleist

....
On Subtitles-

Penton, the CIH subtitles can be accomplished using the existing subtitle files, likely all that would have to be done is to write a plugin or a macro that shifts them the appropriate number of pixels up and the sub generation cycle run again (10min on my computer give or take, at least using DVD subs as a guide). The technical aspects/expense of doing so is pretty low cost.
...

Thanks for raising the subtitle issue. This is a major issue for the blackbar haters (or zoomers) in non-English speaking countries. As you are aware, a significant number of people hate blackbars and use zoom to fit the picture to 16:9 screen. While it is arguable whether this practice is write or wrong, it is their choice and that is the way those people wish to watch a movie. Forcing those people to look at black bars by placing subs on bars would definitely alienate those people and certainly it is counter productive for the growth of subtitled movies in non-English speaking countries. Black-bar hating is a psychological condition and it is not limited to the west. Potentially, 100s of millions blackbar haters/zoomers live around the world. Studios should think of presenting movies in such a way for those people to comfortably watch a movie.

For example, Indian studios understand this problem. All Indian blu-rays released so far by Indian studios place subtitles within the frame (Om Shanti Om and Heyy Babyy by Eros; Sivaji, Villu and Billa by Ayngaran). It is interesting to note that the two Indian movies released by western studios (Saawariya by Sony and Jodhaa Akbar by Bodega Films) place subtitles on black bars! This example alone shows that some western studios are so much out of touch of the requirements of the world audience that need subtitles.

All Hollywood studios place subtitles correctly (within the frame) apart from Sony and WB. This message needs to be pushed to these two studios. The key requirement for placing subtitles within the frame is to make the life comfortable for the millions of black bar haters/zoomers living around the world.

It is not a matter of satisfying just CIH requirements.

If a subtitle stream should be on the black bars, two streams can be encoded at the authoring stage one on the bars and the other within the frame, which is a trivial matter.

[syncguy]

Originally Posted by Cinema Squid

If I am not mistaken, subtitles on Blu-ray as well as non-Java trivia tracks, telestrator graphics, etc. are implemented as a "presentation graphics stream" (PGS) which is essentially a series of fullscreen 1920x1080 transparent bitmaps with on/off timecodes. Since the player is responsible for compositing these over the video layer, it seems possible for a given player to offer support for moving them around. However, simply shifting them horizontally/vertically would be problematic since the graphics content could be appearing anywhere on the screen. They would have to be rescaled to the desired aspect ratio which might cause legibility problems (e.g. short, fat letters), but may be a workable solution that a stand-alone or HTPC software player manufacturer could potentially build in support for.

I believe there are also text-based subtitles in the Blu-ray spec (font rendering handled by player), but as far as I know there have not been any commercial titles that have used them and they might not even work on current market players.

Yes, raster-image based subs are transparent bit maps and they are mapped on to the video path. Since blu-ray video path is protected, manufacturers cannot tap into the subtitle images for shifting. There are solutions for DVD but not for blu-ray.

Text based blu-ray subs are not used by the studios because they are not consistent across all blu-ray players.

Recently announced 21:9 Philips BDP 9100 blu-ray player claims that it supports subtitle shifting to work with 21:9 scope TV sets. If this is correct, Philips should have certified code to tap into the video path and shift raster-image subs. If this is the case, since code is available, potentially it can be released to other manufacturers for implementation via firmware upgrades. PS3 upgrade would be a good start and that will make many people happy.

[Jeff Kleist]

Recently announced 21:9 Philips BDP 9100 blu-ray player claims that it supports subtitle shifting to work with 21:9 scope TV sets. If this is correct, Philips should have certified code to tap into the video path and shift raster-image subs. If this is the case, since code is available, potentially it can be released to other manufacturers for implementation via firmware upgrades. PS3 upgrade would be a good start and that will make many people happy

I really would stop counting on non-essential features being added to PS3's Blu-ray playback. When push comes to shove, it's a gaming console they lose money on and want you buying games they collect $8 royalties on, and buying the dedicated players that are profitable for them

[Steven_qt]

Originally Posted by Penton-Man

Thank you for noticing and mentioning, as compliments are always welcomed.
And how did you like the Blu-ray of Ghostbusters itself ?

Hopefully, as much as these folks did ……….
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=P8IGfkSeRv4

And, like I posted a week or so back, the Blu-ray edition was based on a new HD master, not the master used for the 2005 DVD version, so no expense was spared.

I enjoyed it a lot. Believe it or not, its the first time I've seen it from beginning to end without commercials.

Will Ghostbusters II get a new HD master as well?

[Bobby Henderson]

Originally Posted by Brain Sturgeon

Looks like DLP will be going 4k as well. I'm guessing that Sony's push into 4k d-cinema was TI's impetus. I think it'll be good to have competition in the 4k projector category. Hopefully, this will translate into (reasonably) affordable and high quality consumer 4k projectors for those of us wanting very big (14'+) screens as the technology trickles down.

I am skeptical about the 4K announcement from TI.

The wording in their press release used the term "enhanced DLP," and the word "enhanced" is what gets my B.S. meter pegging into the red zone. So far I have been able to find no confirmation these new "4K" chips really feature native 4096 X 2160 resolution.

It would be great if those new DLP chips did boast 4K native resolution because it would be a tremendous accomplishment in chip engineering. That's 8.8 million spinning mirrors on a little computer chip. It would also translate into much more affordable 1080p-based projectors for home theater and computer-based use. The 2K chips would be much smaller and many more could be fit onto a sheet of silicon during chip manufacturing. Unfortunately reality clouds that optimistic thinking.

Texas Instruments sold DLP chip parts to TV manufacturers like Mitsubishi that were advertised as 1080p but really were not. Instead of 1920 X 1080 native resolution, the chips were only 960 X 1080 and used a "wobbulation" method to fake a 1080p image. I can't help but wonder if this new "4K" chip is another regurgitation of the wobbulation process, this time using a 2K chip to fake a 4K image.

If TI's new 4K DLP chip is really a wobbulated 2K chip in disguise then they will have trouble dealing with Sony's "SXRD" native 4K LCOS system -which is cheaper and easier to produce than DLP chips.

Let's also not forget this 4K chip won't even be available for at least another year. So the announcement could certainly qualify as "vaporware" to keep more theater chains from signing up with Sony for digital cinema installations. Sony now has circuit-wide deals to install 4K projectors on all theater screens operated by AMC and Regal Cinemas. That's a pretty big deal.

Cinemark Theaters took part in TI's 4K press release saying they would install new projectors made by Barco that feature the new 4K DLP chip set in all of Cinemark's theaters. Again, those projectors won't be available until mid to late 2010. In one respect it makes sense for Cinemark to go hand in hand with TI. Both companies are based in the Dallas-Fort Worth area. Cinemark's Legacy theater in Plano, TX has had TI operated DLP projectors for close to a decade. Still, there was some strong rumor and speculation Cinemark would jump to Sony if TI didn't make any kind of big move to 4K soon.

Still, as I said earlier, I'm skeptical TI's 4K chip is really 4K. I mean we're dealing with fake IMAX for crying out loud. Oh wait, I'm sorry. I meant to say "IMAX Digital." As long as the "digital" word is in there it's perfect regardless of the native resolution, bit rate, compression process, etc., etc., etc.

[Doctorossi]

Originally Posted by Bobby Henderson

I mean we're dealing with fake IMAX for crying out loud. Oh wait, I'm sorry. I meant to say "IMAX Digital." As long as the "digital" word is in there it's perfect regardless of the native resolution, bit rate, compression process, etc., etc., etc.

The problem is that it's not. If IMAX had taken the advice of their theatre-chain partners and branded the product distinctly, we could all know what we're getting and attend or avoid at our educated discretion. That's not the case.

I know you're having a moan about the attempt at a popular transmutation of the descriptor "digital" into some sort of positive adjective. I'm with you there, but for me, the bigger issue is being offered the distinction in the first place, accurate or not.

[Bobby Henderson]

The main point is truth in advertising seems to be an optional thing these days -with the option chosen to avoid telling the truth.

[sharkshark]

And you thought you guys could take sides in a high stakes game?

http://news.bbc.co.uk/sport2/hi/moto...ne/8108488.stm

Oh, oh my....

[Dennis M]

Originally Posted by sharkshark

And you thought you guys could take sides in a high stakes game?

http://news.bbc.co.uk/sport2/hi/moto...ne/8108488.stm

Oh, oh my....

Shark, it's F1.

There always more excitement off the track then on it.

Billionaires fighting it out in public, now that's entertainment.

[PaulGo]

Originally Posted by Penton-Man

I’ll tell you.
They won the internet fanboy war but, they were crushed in the real world format war at the end of the day........including jet fuel from Japan to L.A.
To this day, I wonder how many thousands of dollars Amir cost early adopters with his repeated online assurances that “HD DVD will be here for a long time”.

And how many thousands of dollars that Bill Hunt and Jeff, etc. saved audio video enthusiasts who trusted in their judgment from the beginning. That is nothing to take for granted given these hard economic times.

Their fanboys were similar to lemmings and could not be persuaded by facts. If Amir told the to jump off of a cliff to save HD-DVD I believe some of them would have because Amir said it was based upon sound technical reasons.