INCEPTION Review Thread (SPOILERS!!)

[radagast]

Originally Posted by SquidPuppet

What in the hell does being an architecht have to do with being shocked or not?

[Show spoiler]And.... If you remember right, she was shocked as hell. Didnt seem to wake her up though.

I've had a dream where I was dreaming another dream. In other words, I have had a dream within a dream. It didn't shock me awake.

I've also had another dream where I became aware I was dreaming. It didn't wake me up.

Originally Posted by SquidPuppet

[Show spoiler]She was in his dream. Got it. But she was dreaming as well. She was dreaming IN his dream. And wouldnt the discovery that you are dreaming, AND dreaming inside someone elses dream be a bit shocking? Perhaps enough to jar you?

[Show spoiler]Earlier, Saito became aware that he was still dreaming when Cobb was trying to extract the information. Saito became aware of it when he realized the carpet in his apartment was wrong. Saito then said he could control his dream then. The first architect then told Saito that it was his dream not Saito's. Saito didn't wake up at that revelation.

[Batman1980]

Originally Posted by SquidPuppet

I agree, thats what the science of it all is supposed to be. But thats a weakness of the film for me.

[Show spoiler]Although she is in HIS dream, the logic that he controls everything doesnt work for me. Especially when she becomes aware of her state (dreaming as well, and in his dream). What prevents her from awakening? How is Leo able to prevent her from awakening?

[Show spoiler]I'm fairly certain she was give a sedation dose that lasted 5 minutes so they could talk/train for one hour. So she wouldn't have been able to wake herself up without a totem or a kick.

[mjbethancourt]

Originally Posted by Gandalf Stormcrow

[Show spoiler]These things only happen in training exercises and in other specific circumstances. Arthur floating around and fighting with no gravity wouldn't shock him because it was his dream and it wouldn't shock anyone else because they were asleep or projections.

I think a simpler explanation is: nobody said you CAN'T do those things, what was said was that you shouldn't, or it jeopardizes the objective.

[Show spoiler]In the case of the folded street, it had the unpleasant result of Dom's subconscious attacking the dreamer. The "zero-G" scene was a result of the van being in freefall, the same way that somebody turning on the TV in the room you're sleeping in will often make a strange intrusion on your dreams.

... but we're wasting time trying to explain something to an avowed contrarian.

[tilapiah6]

Originally Posted by SquidPuppet

[mjbethancourt]

Originally Posted by Gandalf Stormcrow

[Show spoiler]He didn't give her a kick, besides she was already an architect and a very good one so suddenly finding out she was in a dream wouldn't shock her as much as most.

[Show spoiler]Ummm... it DID shock her and cause the dream to collapse and wake her up. Then they went back in. Knowing you're in a dream will blow the extractor's cover, not end the dream. I don't know where he got that from, nobody said that, he's just trying to provoke you.

Originally Posted by kpkelley

[Show spoiler]It wasn't her dream. It was Leo's dream, but he already knew they were dreaming. Her shock at discovering she was dreaming wouldn't wake her up since it wasn't her dream.

[Show spoiler]Actually, it was her dream. Cobb said so, she was the dreamer, he the subject, and it was his subconscious that populates the dream.

[SquidPuppet]

Originally Posted by radagast

I've had a dream where I was dreaming another dream. In other words, I have had a dream within a dream. It didn't shock me awake.

I've also had another dream where I became aware I was dreaming. It didn't wake me up.

[Show spoiler]Earlier, Saito became aware that he was still dreaming when Cobb was trying to extract the information. Saito became aware of it when he realized the carpet in his apartment was wrong. Saito then said he could control his dream then. The first architect then told Saito that it was his dream not Saito's. Saito didn't wake up at that revelation.

See, I have experienced that, and it did wake me up, which was good because I was dying in the dream.

[SquidPuppet]

Originally Posted by tilapiah6

Is that at me? I was just trying to help keep the thread free of spoilers.

[SquidPuppet]

Originally Posted by mjbethancourt

[Show spoiler]Ummm... it DID shock her and cause the dream to collapse and wake her up. Then they went back in. Knowing you're in a dream will blow the extractor's cover, not end the dream. I don't know where he got that from, nobody said that, he's just trying to provoke you.

[Show spoiler]Actually, it was her dream. Cobb said so, she was the dreamer, he the subject, and it was his subconscious that populates the dream.

I am not trying to provoke anyone.

And I am not an avowed contrarian.

I am talking to these guys about the movie and its been pretty calm here.

Please dont accuse me of "provoking".

I have an opinion and am sharing it. I am asking questions and enjoy reading the answers others have offered.

I never said the movie "sucked".

Since you have me on ignore, and can only see my comments when others quote me, dont refer to me in your responses.

[tilapiah6]

Originally Posted by SquidPuppet

Is that at me? I was just trying to help keep the thread free of spoilers.

No I was just keeping the ;rollseyes: train rolling!

[SquidPuppet]

Originally Posted by tilapiah6

No I was just keeping the ;rollseyes: train rolling!

OK, gotcha.

[kefrank]

mjbethancourt has the right answers. Additionally:

[Show spoiler]If the subject starts to realize they are in someone's dream, subconsciously or consciously, their projections will start to go after the dreamer so that the dream will lose stability.

[Foggy]

Originally Posted by kefrank

mjbethancourt has the right answers. Additionally:

[Show spoiler]If the subject starts to realize they are in someone's dream, subconsciously or consciously, their projections will start to go after the dreamer so that the dream will lose stability.

[Show spoiler]They don't go for the dreamer, they go for the person messing with there mind

[coachD]

I enjoyed Inception very much. I plan to watch it again in the theater in a couple of weeks (after Salt).

I also loved The Matrix and Dark City.

[kefrank]

Originally Posted by Foggy

[Show spoiler]They don't go for the dreamer, they go for the person messing with there mind

No...

[Show spoiler]...the projections go for the dreamer. This is made very clear throughout the film. Cobb's projections start to notice Ariadne (the dreamer) in the training dream; when they do the Mr. Charles gambit in level 2, the projections become more aware of Arthur, who is the dreamer of that level; etc.

Maybe you're thinking specifically of the assault projections that are trained to defend a subject against extraction. Those projections appear to generally go after the extraction team, although they still seem heavily focused on getting to the actual dreamer, as far as I can tell.

Another fine point that is a little difficult to wrap your head around at first is that...

[Show spoiler]...a subject, even a lucid one, is never in conscious control of their projections, because the projections are inherently subconscious. The subconscious has it's own independent "awareness" and the projections react accordingly. This is why Cobb, fully aware that he's in the dreamworld the entire time, cannot control his projections to keep them from killing Ariadne in her training dream. Likewise, this is why Fischer consciously doesn't realize he's in a dream in level 1, but his trained subconscious recognizes the extractors and attempts to defend him. Where this gets particularly confusing is the Mr. Charles gambit in level 2. Apparently when a previously unaware subject becomes consciously aware that they're in a dream, this realization translates to the subconscious awareness, presumably because the realization represents a changed state inside the dreamworld.

[Foggy]

Originally Posted by kefrank

No...

[Show spoiler]...the projections go for the dreamer. This is made very clear throughout the film. Cobb's projections start to notice Ariadne (the dreamer) in the training dream; when they do the Mr. Charles gambit in level 2, the projections become more aware of Arthur, who is the dreamer of that level; etc.

Maybe you're thinking specifically of the assault projections that are trained to defend a subject against extraction. Those projections appear to generally go after the extraction team, although they still seem heavily focused on getting to the actual dreamer, as far as I can tell.

Another fine point that is a little difficult to wrap your head around at first is that...

[Show spoiler]...a subject, even a lucid one, is never in conscious control of their projections, because the projections are inherently subconscious. The subconscious has it's own independent "awareness" and the projections react accordingly. This is why Cobb, fully aware that he's in the dreamworld the entire time, cannot control his projections to keep them from killing Ariadne in her training dream. Likewise, this is why Fischer consciously doesn't realize he's in a dream in level 1, but his trained subconscious recognizes the extractors and attempts to defend him. Where this gets particularly confusing is the Mr. Charles gambit in level 2. Apparently when a previously unaware subject becomes consciously aware that they're in a dream, this realization translates to the subconscious awareness, presumably because the realization represents a changed state inside the dreamworld.

[Show spoiler]Cobb specifically said "no, they will attack you" after Ariadne asks "will they attack us?"

[kefrank]

Originally Posted by Foggy

[Show spoiler]Cobb specifically said "no, they will attack you" after Ariadne asks "will they attack us?"

[Show spoiler]Are you talking about her training dream? Because that just reinforces my point - she's the dreamer and they attack her.

[Batman1980]

Originally Posted by kefrank

[Show spoiler]Are you talking about her training dream? Because that just reinforces my point - she's the dreamer and they attack her.

[Show spoiler]It's his dream, he's in control of everything except his projections, which is why they attack her after she keeps using her skills as an architect to alter the "dreamscape".

[Foggy]

Originally Posted by kefrank

[Show spoiler]Are you talking about her training dream? Because that just reinforces my point - she's the dreamer and they attack her.

[Show spoiler]It was Cobb's dream, it was his subconscious

[Batman1980]

[Show spoiler]http://networkedblogs.com/6gHn8

Only click that link if you have seen the movie, I think it's pretty neat, credit to a chat buddy again.

[kefrank]

Originally Posted by Gandalf Stormcrow

[Show spoiler]It's his dream, he's in control of everything except his projections, which is why they attack her after she keeps using her skills as an architect to alter the "dreamscape".

[Show spoiler]No, I believe you're still confused about that. See mjbethancourt's earlier post. She's the dreamer. This is clearly evident as only the dreamer can construct and change the "dreamscape" while in the dream. The only thing Cobb is in "in control of" in the training dream is his own conscious self in the dreamworld.

To clarify further, the architect designs the dreamscape and presents the design to the dreamer so that the dreamer will actually manifest it in the dreamworld. The dreamer has the ability to alter the dreamscape while in the dream (as shown by Arthur's staircase paradox during the inception), but should avoid altering very much because the projections will become aware of the dreamer when things start to change. When there is no architect (as in the case of the training dream), the dreamer simply goes into the dream with whatever dreamscape they want to.