INCEPTION Review Thread (SPOILERS!!)

[Batman1980]

Originally Posted by RocShemp

I certainly don't think it was all a dream. And I stated in my previous post that Fischer wasn't planned as misdirection for Cobb. If the inception Fischer wasn't real, he wouldn't be having a final conversation with Eames that Cobb couldn't witness.



No. He said "nothing's down there except for whatever's left behing by someone who's been there before". Ariadne pushes the subject and that's how she (and the audience) learn that Cobb was once in limbo. However, Arthur never says the person who'd been there before would have to be there with you for you to see what they created there. Instead it's that limbo retains what was left their by a previous visitor. The only two are Cobb and Mal.

[Show spoiler]The only two we're aware of for purposes of the movie are Cobb and Mal. It would seem they made limbo the way they wanted it to be while they were stuck down there, so they probably changed it a lot from the way it used to be.

[RocShemp]

Originally Posted by Gandalf Stormcrow

[Show spoiler]The only two we're aware of for purposes of the movie are Cobb and Mal. It would seem they made limbo the way they wanted it to be while they were stuck down there, so they probably changed it a lot from the way it used to be.

[Show spoiler]Quite true. However, my point is that it's interesting that it seems anyone who visits limbo would see what was created by a previous resident. That implies that all dreaming is shared. It's just that we don't all enter each other's dreams.

It's kind of like the notion that all ideas exist in the air (bad translation of an expression in Spanish). You and I can be worlds appart, having no interaction whatsoever, and yet we both manage to imagine almost the same exact idea and/or story. It's not a notion that has any narrative importance whatsoever but I thought it was an interesting concept nonetheless.

By the way, why are we still using spoiler tags? I thought the spoiler embargo was lifted.

[Batman1980]

Yes but this is still relatively a new movie and this is one of those movies where even the littlest spoiler could ruin the experience. So out of respect for those who haven't seen it, I will keep using tags for major stuff, at least for now.

[RudyC]

[QUOTE=mjbethancourt;3571006]While all of that may or may not be the intended purpose, it was Cobb came to Miles, not vice versa, and he was already on the Fischer job by then.

cobb would call miles often..to bring the kids gifts and stuff so maybe miles was waiting for the right time to help him

Also, whether Ariadne was originally intended to go on the mission or not, she was nonetheless doing a lot of shared dreaming with Cobb and the others during their training exercises. She had that basis for objection the very first time they shared dreams... who wants to share dreams with somebody who is going to bring violence and madness with them?

she could have raised all those objections to get cobb to open up to her. and when she left it could have been so cobb wouldnt suspect her trying to help him.

I guess where I really disagree is that I don't think that Miles was staging an Inception on Cobb, I think that Cobb was living the result of performing an inception on himself.

that sounds a bit strange..please explain

I think the "Miles staging an inception on Cobb" inference is congruent with the inference that Cobb was dreaming the whole time, and I don't buy either one... I think that is a train of thought that the director deliberately wanted to mislead people into.

miles helping cobb overcome mal is not the same thing as the whole movie was a dream.. saying the whole movie is a dream is dumb...just like saying fisher saito thing wasnt real either... both things had to happen . it was the story of the Whole movie. .

[Foggy]

Originally Posted by RudyC

to the experts out there.. how far off am i on the ending...

the movie is about two things..
1. michael cain recommends that girl to help leo conquer his Mal dreams.. she is successful as evident when leo himself realizes this when he wakes up and the architect and and that guy from 3rd rock are smiling at him.

2. leo earns the right to go back to the states by helping saito.
at the end when he was in limbo with saito they both realized that they were dreaming and woke up without having to use a jump reaction..

over course the ending is real but he leaves the top spinning for suspense..

how far am i?

Well it sounds godd, but I dunno if you right, nobody knows.

[mjbethancourt]

Originally Posted by RocShemp

[Show spoiler]Quite true. However, my point is that it's interesting that it seems anyone who visits limbo would see what was created by a previous resident. That implies that all dreaming is shared. It's just that we don't all enter each other's dreams.

No, it would just imply that a certain, deep level of subconscious is shared by all people, not all dreaming. It's a popular (and frequently misconstrued and debunked) notion.

Originally Posted by RudyC

cobb would call miles often..to bring the kids gifts and stuff so maybe miles was waiting for the right time to help him

Also, whether Ariadne was originally intended to go on the mission or not, she was nonetheless doing a lot of shared dreaming with Cobb and the others during their training exercises. She had that basis for objection the very first time they shared dreams... who wants to share dreams with somebody who is going to bring violence and madness with them?

she could have raised all those objections to get cobb to open up to her. and when she left it could have been so cobb wouldnt suspect her trying to help him.

There's an awful lot of "could be" in that line of reasoning. I'm not following you out onto that limb.

I guess where I really disagree is that I don't think that Miles was staging an Inception on Cobb, I think that Cobb was living the result of performing an inception on himself.

that sounds a bit strange..please explain

I believe I did explain it in the next two sentences which you cut off.

miles helping cobb overcome mal is not the same thing as the whole movie was a dream.. saying the whole movie is a dream is dumb...just like saying fisher saito thing wasnt real either... both things had to happen . it was the story of the Whole movie. .

I didn't say it was the same thing, I said it was congruent. Anyway, Miles trying to help, and Miles staging an inception, are also not quite the same thing.

Come on, now:
So is Miles so powerful that he can commandeer industrial megabillionaire Saito into offering Cobb an
opportunity to get home? Right there, you can cross off the possibility of Saito being "in on it".

All Cobb told Miles is that he needed somebody for a job. He never said it was an inception job, and he never said he was planning something 3 levels deep, with a sedative that would put the team in jeopardy of dropping into limbo. So as far as anybody other than Cobb and Yusuf knew, they would not be in danger of dropping into limbo, and so there was no fore-knowledge that there would be any such need to confront Mal in limbo... hell, they only went there to retrieve Fischer. So did Miles know all along that Cobb was planning an inception job three layers deep, and that Cobb's projection of Mal would kill Fischer and make them have to go after him? What reason do we even have to believe that Miles has any indication of what Cobb is dealing with, as far as his internal issues? Does Miles know that Cobb has built up a dreamspace where he obsesses on his regrets? Does Miles even know that Cobb's projection of Mal is sabotaging missions? All we know about it is that Cobb told him that Mal "won't let him" build anymore. Judging by Arthur's response, it hadn't been much of an issue until the botched Saito job. The whole hypothesis depends on jumping to way too many unsubstantiated conclusions. I think it's a lot more straightforward than that. Yes, you're meant to think in circles and speculate on stuff like that, but by the end of the film, it should be apparent to the viewer that they were intentionally misdirected into those sorts of ideas.

[Petra_Kalbrain]

Originally Posted by RocShemp

I believe you've got it.

After my second viewing, I'm convinced there are two simultanous inceptions being carried out through the course of the film. What makes me think that is Ariadne. At one point, she insists to Arthur that she refuses to open her mind "to someone like that" when speaking of Cobb's issues. Why should this concern her if she was only to design the maze and relate its design to the dreamer. Prior to the scene in the memory elevator, Ariadne was not supposed to even be on the flight nor in any of the dreams. She forces Cobb's hand to let her in.

Afterward, there's a conversation between Ariadne and Arthur about limbo. Arthur told Ariadne that limbo was unconstructed dreamspace where you'd find nothing but whatever was placed there by someone who was there before. So limbo in its current state is filled with Mal and Cobb's creations (which are seen falling appart due to neglect).

This of course brings up the question, is all subconcious thought shared? Because it seems that limbo is not an individual "bottom of the barrel" of an individual's subconcious if what you find down there was created by a "previous resident".

But I suppose this is why many (myself included) believe that the true subject of inception is Cobb and that Fischer is just used to distract Cobb into not realizing that he's being pushed to let go of Mal and "come back to reality".

Of course, Fischer would have to also be a mark because, if not, his final conversation with not-Browning (a.k.a. Eames) wouldn't make a lick of sense. If Fischer was just a distraction for Cobb, he wouldn't be having a staged conversation that Cobb couldn't witness. So it seems possible that Ariadne was hired by Miles and Arthur in order to carry out their own inceptions whilst Cobb was orchestrating one on Fischer.

[Show spoiler]If there is an inception being performed on Cobb, it's not a plan put into action by anyone. It is more like Ariadne sees the potential to help Cobb deal with his own problems by guiding him towards resolution. She isn't trying to incept him though. She is too forward in pushing him directly towards his catharsis to be incepting him. I believe that her obssession with the notion of "pure creation" as it relates to "the subconscious state of mind" is genuinely what brings her back. Then, when she finds out that this good man has issues that he is suppressing, she genuinely wants to help him. She sees that he is a man who is obviously full of love and goodness. And, she cares about his well-being for that reason.

Ariadne doesn't want to get involved at first because she can see the danger of being in the sleep state with someone who has issues as big as Cobb. Those issues could become major catalysts towards breaching her own safety. She simply doesn't want to put herself at risk. It's like saying that you wouldn't want to work alone and in close proximity to someone you know has committed murder 3 times already. Her decision to get further involved than originally intended is to help Cobb try to keep his issues under control during the mission. Since she is the only one who knows the severity of the situation, she knows that the mission will fail without her. THIS situation is FAR LESS COMPLEX than you are making it out to be.

Limbo is unconstructed dreamspace that is limited to those who have been there IN THE CURRENT DREAMSHARE GROUP. If Nolan was trying to imply otherwise, then the version of limbo we would have seen in the film would have been far different since hundreds of thousands of people would have technically been there. Think of all of the comatose people in the history of humanity. They would have all had influenced that limbo. A group sharing a dream are only going to go to a version of limbo that remains from someone in the group that has been there. They make that clear at some point in the film.

Originally Posted by RocShemp

[Show spoiler]Quite true. However, my point is that it's interesting that it seems anyone who visits limbo would see what was created by a previous resident. That implies that all dreaming is shared. It's just that we don't all enter each other's dreams.

It's kind of like the notion that all ideas exist in the air (bad translation of an expression in Spanish). You and I can be worlds appart, having no interaction whatsoever, and yet we both manage to imagine almost the same exact idea and/or story. It's not a notion that has any narrative importance whatsoever but I thought it was an interesting concept nonetheless.

By the way, why are we still using spoiler tags? I thought the spoiler embargo was lifted.

[Show spoiler]I disagree. My previous statement in this post says it all. They state pretty conclusively in the film at some point that limbo will contain elements from anyone within the current dreamshare who has previously been there. That is why the limbo isn't full of people and other strange variations. If limbo is shared by everyone, millions of people would have already been there and even thousands would currently be there. It just doesn't make sense.

Although, beyond the film, I do believe that the super-string theory would be supportive of such a notion to a fractional degree. And, I do believe in the super-string theory. However, I don't believe that it could be potent enough to suggest what you are implying with your theory of the film elements.

[CYMBOL]

My take/ another possibility(without spoilers since the thread says ,"Spoilers").

Although there are signs that point to it "all being a dream" (that dreamlike anxiety of him squeezing through a narrow alley that seems to be getting smaller, and the hint that dreams don't seem "strange" until after you've woken up, and shadowy, no-name figures chasing you. . . etc.)

However, here is what I left the theater feeling.

Everything was real, Cobb was definitely having a hard time separating the dream world from the waking - he went in with his team to perform the inception. He goes all the way down into the limbo state - and - stays there. In his limbo world, he wakes up and everything is exactly the way he always wanted it. It was Inception on himself to make him think this dreamworld was real, because there was no going back.

Ok - tear it to shreds.

__________________________________________________ ________________
Ok, now - what I WISH would happen from Nolan - an Inception Prequel.

Now, usually, prequels are not interesting because they tell the first half of a story we already now the ending to - but Cobb explained that the technology came from the military who used it to experiment with soldiers so that they could go in and fight and get killed with no actual repercussions - I'm sure that went great. I would LOVE to see that story!

[radagast]

Originally Posted by Gandalf Stormcrow

Yup and I now agree with those that think Cobb's

[Show spoiler]totem was his wedding ring, even if you never see the guy check it. He's always wearing it in dreams but doesn't have it on in real life.

Cobb did say the spinner was Mal's totem. I have three questions that I haven't found discussed here yet. If they have, I apologize:

1) If the spinning top was Mal's totem, why didn't she just use that to tell that she was not dreaming?

2) The corporation that was trying to kill Cobb for failing to extract the information from Saito is still out there. What is Cobb going to do about that...besides taking them on in Inception 2?

3) Saito had plenty of pictures of Fischer. Why did Fischer know who Saito was? Saito was Fischer's chief business rival, but Saito is on the jet and in the dreams with Fischer.

[RocShemp]

Originally Posted by radagast

Cobb did say the spinner was Mal's totem. I have three questions that I haven't found discussed here yet. if they have, I apologize:

1) If the spinning top was Mal's totem, why didn't she just use that to tell that she was not dreaming?

2) The corporation that was trying to kill Cobb for failing to extract the information from Saito is still out there. What is Cobb going to do about that...besides taking them on in Inception 2?

3) Saito had plenty of pictures of Fischer. Why did Fisher know who Saito was? Saito was Fisher's chief business rival, but Saito is on the jet and in the dreams with Fisher.

1) She was in denial. That's why she hid the totem in the dollhouse safe. It was something she hid because she chose to forget that limbo wasn't real. Cobb spun it and put it back in her safe. that left her always doubting her perceived reality.

2) Cobb said he could square things on his own with Cobol. I'm sure he did just that afterwards.

3) Good question. Then again, he was his father's business rival. But you'd assume a guy trying to gain his father's love and respect would know all of his fathers dealings and of his rivals.

[radagast]

Originally Posted by RocShemp

Because he

[Show spoiler]only wears his wedding ring in the dream world. In the real world he never has a wedding ring.

But Cobb never looks at his finger to see if he's dreaming. It's always the spinning top. He does it repeatedly throughout the film because he is worried that he is losing his grip.

[CYMBOL]

Originally Posted by radagast

But Cobb never looks at his finger to see if he's dreaming. It's always the spinning top. He does it repeatedly throughout the film because he is worried that he is losing his grip.

I don't think the ring was necessarily his totem. I think it showed up in the Dream World because that is how he perceived himself - still married, still responsible for her.

[radagast]

Originally Posted by RudyC

yup alot of things wouldnt make sense unless there were 2 inceptions.

I don't see the second inception bit. Inception was to introduce a totally new idea in someone's head and make them think it's their idea. Cobb always wanted to get back to his children. So what could possibly be the inception on Cobb?

[radagast]

Originally Posted by RocShemp

Quite true. However, my point is that it's interesting that it seems anyone who visits limbo would see what was created by a previous resident. That implies that all dreaming is shared. It's just that we don't all enter each other's dreams.

No. They were connected by the machine. That's why there was a residue of previous Limbo visits for others to be involved with.

Otherwise, there are other machines besides the one Cobb uses. If Limbo was a place not connected to the machine, then it would be possible that other people lost in Limbo when using other machines, would show up in someone else's Limbo.

[Petra_Kalbrain]

Originally Posted by radagast

I don't see the second inception bit. Inception was to introduce a totally new idea in someone's head and make them think it's their idea. Cobb always wanted to get back to his children. So what could possibly be the inception on Cobb?

[Show spoiler]It's being implied that the inception on Cobb was arranged by his father-in-law in order to make Cobb believe that he came to terms with his guilt on his own.... which doesn't make ANY SENSE WHATSOEVER since that is most definitely something that he would have to do on his own anyhow. Especially since Ariadne becomes so blatantly forward about the subject with Cobb (the suggested mark for the inception itself). Running the "Mr. Charles" gambit may work to get your mark to trust you, but running a "Mr. Charles" gambit by exposing the idea you wish to incept into your mark TO the mark themselves is only going to result in failure. THAT is why there is no inception on Cobb. "If I tell you not to think of elephants, what do you think of?" "The subconscious can always track the source of the idea." Ariadne would have had to be a lot less direct in order for Cobb's catharsis to be considered an inception.

[Petra_Kalbrain]

Originally Posted by radagast

Cobb did say the spinner was Mal's totem. I have three questions that I haven't found discussed here yet. If they have, I apologize:

1) If the spinning top was Mal's totem, why didn't she just use that to tell that she was not dreaming?

2) The corporation that was trying to kill Cobb for failing to extract the information from Saito is still out there. What is Cobb going to do about that...besides taking them on in Inception 2?

3) Saito had plenty of pictures of Fischer. Why did Fischer know who Saito was? Saito was Fischer's chief business rival, but Saito is on the jet and in the dreams with Fischer.

[Show spoiler]#1. She didn't need to top anymore. Her belief that her reality was fake was firmly planted and irreversible. Even if she had spun the top, it wouldn't have chaged her mind. The idea was planted and grew like a virus to consume her every moment.

#2. Well, they did attack him while he was trying to recruit Eames. Perhaps they will approach him in the future about the situation. But, that's not what the film is about, so who really cares?

#3. Who cares? I was always too focused on Cobb's journey to care about that kind of detail.

[Buddy Christ]

WOW!, Really?

Alot of you keep reading and reading into this movie ideas that do NOT present themselves at all on screen.

If you want you can make up anything you want and YOU would be right because it has now become your story with YOUR projections.

But just watch the movie and it's simplistic plot. No need to keep making up new theories about what Nolan MIGHT be trying to say.

I can not believe I come into this thread to find people saying that his father-in-law was incepting him.

We need a new movie to go on about cause this one is running out of topics. Oh wait, tomorrow we find out that Mal never killed herself cause she did it in a dream to incept Cobb so he would live a life of guilt.

Good bye inception thread. I like all of you but this thread is starting to ruin the movie for me.

~moves to find Gladiator thread~

[CYMBOL]

Originally Posted by Buddy Christ

Good bye inception thread. I like all of you but this thread is starting to ruin the movie for me.

The Inception worked everybody - we got Buddy Christ to believe this thread was ruining the movie for him and to leave it.

Whew!

[RocShemp]

Originally Posted by Buddy Christ

~moves to find Gladiator thread~

You mean to tell me that you don't know that the whole of Inception was a death dream that Maximus was having during the ending of Gladiator?

[Blu3]

Saw Inception for the 1st time Saturday night.

Quick Review:

Exceptional

Well thought out, excellent acting all around (great cast) and lots of action. This is the type of movie that you need to see twice (or more) to understand 100%, but in a good way. I feel I got most of it and look forward to seeing it again on blu-ray. This is a movie that engages you from beginning to end and leaves you thinking about it afterwards.

Bonus: I got to watch this at the Jordan's IMAX in Natick, MA. There's nothing quite like a 70 foot screen, 12,000 watts of digital surround sound and Tempurpedic seats with in-seat built speakers called "butt-kickers".