INCEPTION Review Thread (SPOILERS!!)

[Blu3]

Originally Posted by Gandalf Stormcrow

No you didn't miss anything, good call.

[Show spoiler]Their mental age still affected her ability to perceive reality. If you were 50 years older than you looked, it'd probably make you a little psychotic too.

[Show spoiler]lol one of the things I'll enjoy when I'm very old - a good excuse to act senile and enjoy some crazy times again.

When I saw that part of them laying on the tracks, I assumed the reason why they were young again - because they made it clear that they spent some 50 years down there and grew old together - was just the director replacing the old couple with the young actors, so that we knew who we were actually watching and not get confused, OR it was how at that moment, Cobb realized they were in limbo and remembered how old (or young, really) they trully were, and we then started to watch the moments unfold from his eye view, which was back to their age in the real world.

[Blu3]

Originally Posted by Bizdady

Yes I remembered that trying to backtrack lol One thing that I got to thinking now was dont they

[Show spoiler]need the briefcase machine to go into dreams? How did they get into Saitos limbo again? I dont remember Leo or Ellen killing themselves in dream 3.

[Show spoiler]If I remember right, I think Eamus had the machine, a briefcase one, in level 3 and hooked all 3 of them up (Cobb, Fisher and Ellen).

[Blu3]

I have some Q's that kind of got missed on the last page that I wanted to post for a 2nd shot at some answers. Thanks!

[Show spoiler]Few things I haven't figured out yet with the whole dreamer/subject/architect set up and the machine...(sorry if it's been covered here, but there's over 100 pages in the thread...)

1. The machine administers the anesthetic to put people to sleep and is what ultimately dictates how much time you have and thus, dream in each level (exception being an early exit via a "kick"). The machine also connects people right? Otherwise how would they show up collectively on the same dream, but remain out of other people's dreams that are dreaming with other machines around the world (and vice-versa)? I only remember the I/V connection for the anesthetic from the machine, how else are they connected to it?

2. It's the dreamer's dream, populated by the subject with the environment (or level) created by the architect - is that right? And anyone else going in is what, a guest? Sooo the machine also sets this up? They don't show us how the architect "loads" up the levels, for example, or how the machine, or whatever is doing it makes sure that everyone goes into this guy or that guy's dream, and what controls who's mind you're breaking into? Is there a mental block for the others? Actually, others in the shared dream also populate the dream, as seen with Cobb's wife, so yeah, I'm definately going to have to watch this again to get how everything all ties together.

3. Once in a dream, or level 1, how do they get in deeper levels? The movie shows them using the machine again for the next level down and so on, but...they're already dreaming, so there's no actual or real 2nd machine, or 3rd one, and so on, taking them deeper and deeper, so what is it? Is it just the mind thinking it's going deeper and thus, by believeing it, it does so in the subconscious?? Whoa, that's a mind trip lol

[CYMBOL]

Originally Posted by Blu3

[Show spoiler]lol one of the things I'll enjoy when I'm very old - a good excuse to act senile and enjoy some crazy times again.

When I saw that part of them laying on the tracks, I assumed the reason why they were young again - because they made it clear that they spent some 50 years down there and grew old together - was just the director replacing the old couple with the young actors, so that we knew who we were actually watching and not get confused, OR it was how at that moment, Cobb realized they were in limbo and remembered how old (or young, really) they trully were, and we then started to watch the moments unfold from his eye view, which was back to their age in the real world.

I think your right - the director had the "young" version of them on the tracks cause it probably would have been confusing for some folks.

He clearly shows them as "old" later in the movie.

Besides, age is realitive, even in reality. Some people "think" of themselves as much younger (don't we all).

They grew old together in the dream - but maybe when they decided to "end it", the facade dropped and it was just them again, as they were in the waking world - young.

[mjbethancourt]

Originally Posted by CYMBOL

I think your right - the director had the "young" version of them on the tracks cause it probably would have been confusing for some folks.

He clearly shows them as "old" later in the movie.

Besides, age is realitive, even in reality. Some people "think" of themselves as much younger (don't we all).

They grew old together in the dream - but maybe when they decided to "end it", the facade dropped and it was just them again, as they were in the waking world - young.

Perceptions in dreams shifts a lot. Ariadne mentioned "I thought it would be all about the visual, but it's more about the 'feel' of the dreamspace". I think the visual presentation is controlled and kept static for the benefit of the audience, but I think it is implied that visual perception in the dream is actually a little bit more fluid than what is depicted on screen, (such as when we see them old and young in different flashbacks of the same scene, or Eames' skill to shift identities. I think that skill is based mostly on his ability to imitate mannerisms and idiosyncrasies, and the other dreamers just kind of "fill in" the visual information on their own.)

Dreams are weird.

[Petra_Kalbrain]

Originally Posted by Blu3

+1 lol I've only seen the movie once so far though

[Show spoiler]That picture diagram is cool, but it doesn't show how Cobb and Saito get out of limbo. As we see Saito reach for his gun once they both remember why they're there and what they are (or were) doing, we are led to believe that they simply shoot each other to wake up, which doesn't make sense at first because we're told that if anyone dies, as Saito did, they get stuck in limbo, but I suppose it's plausible, since they are already in limbo, and thus, could wake up by dying here (nowhere else to go but back to reality, or wake up). It's also possible that they remembered the "kicks" as a way to wake up based on Yusuuf's anesthetic formula, and simply knocked themselves over in their chairs or jumped out the window (your guess is as good as mine). Someone on an earlier page here mentioned they simply woke up after they remembered, but I doubt this, as the movie made it clear that you don't wake up from limbo until your time runs out, about ~50 years, which is what happened with Cobb and his wife, so Cobb and Saito would have to figure out a kick of their own to jump out early - the only thing I can't figure out is why Saito was so old by the time Cobb found him - are there two limbos going on here, and if so, why would one have a different timeline than the other (if all limbos are on the same dream level) - or is Cobb's dream not a limbo level??

All kinds of simple misunderstandings in that post.

[Show spoiler]#1. Diagram doesn't show Cobb & Saito get out of limbo because that is never clearly portrayed in the film. Besides, it doesn't matter if theyactually did or not. The film is about Cobb's journey to conquer his personal issues. That is why Nolan is so ambiguous after Cobb confronts and denies his Mal projection. So, no need to acknowledge it on the diagram.

#2. If/when Saito & Cobb kill themselves towards the end, they already are in limbo. The only way out of limbo is to believe that the world is a dreamspace and kill yourself. Otherwise, you are going to remain comatose in the real world. You have no connection line whatsoever to kick back along.

#3. A kick is something that has to happen a level down from your current state of subconsciousness. So, in Saito & Cobb's case, they would have to be kicked in the real world since they lost connection to the kick ladder. And, since they were in limbo, as stated in #2, a real world kick would not work in getting them back to reality.

#4. Saito being old makes perfect sense. Each level of dream has an exponentially more dense time conceptualization. They explain it clearly in the film. Something like 1 minute in the real world could be a decade in limbo (rough estimate from my memory, not actual number used in film). Cobb & Mal were in limbo for 50 years together, but when they woke up from it it seemed like they had only just been asleep for a few hours in the real world. So, since Saito died a few minutes before Cobb followed him to limbo, Saito experience would have been exponentially longer during that time. Thus, he lived a lifetime before Cobb could get to him.

5. A limbo shared by two or more dreamers will share the same time sensitivity. However, if those dreamers don't show up at the exact same time, whoever gets there first will be alone for quite some time in the matter of seconds between each persons arrival.

Originally Posted by mjbethancourt

I think they did shoot themselves, and the director just decided at that point it would be in bad taste to depict yet more suicide, especially in what turns out to be the segue to the warm, positive ending. Cobb and Mal did not wake up when their time ran out, they laid on a train track and got obliterated. The age-perception thing is interesting, as it seems that it is transitory... characters are shown both old and young in different depictions of the same dream scene. Dreams are weird that way. I know in most of my dreams, I'm usually 10-20 years younger than I really am, and it changes a lot.

Originally Posted by CYMBOL

I think your right - the director had the "young" version of them on the tracks cause it probably would have been confusing for some folks.

He clearly shows them as "old" later in the movie.

Besides, age is realitive, even in reality. Some people "think" of themselves as much younger (don't we all).

They grew old together in the dream - but maybe when they decided to "end it", the facade dropped and it was just them again, as they were in the waking world - young.

Ya. I agree that there is definitely an age perception in those particular scenes. I believe that

[Show spoiler]the first few times we see Cobb & Mal laying on the tracks, it is Cobb's memory. That's the key to understanding why we don't see old people in their place until later. When we see two old people wandering in limbo, it isn't a memory we are seeing. THOSE shots are more like the ACTUAL footage captured from an outside perspective looking in instead of Cobb's minds eye perspective on it.

Originally Posted by mjbethancourt

the time scale is controlled by the technology. Yusuf tailors compounds to specific parameters, including time scale. I think your assumption is basically correct, that all of those things are controlled by the technology. The director spares us those minute details, as there is already an abundance of exposition through dialogue.

This is wrong.

[Show spoiler]The machine only controls how long in perceived time the dreamers will remain sedated in that particular level. It has nothing to do with controlling how the length of the dream is perceived. No matter what they do with the machine, they can't make 2 minutes in one level seem like whatever amount of time they wish in the next level. That's a variable that can't be controlled. Yussuf has no power to change how time is perceived in any dream state. Nor does the machine. He only has the power to keep you sleeping for a certain period of time. How the subsequent time is perceived is out of everyones control.

Originally Posted by Bizdady

Yes I remembered that trying to backtrack lol One thing that I got to thinking now was dont they

[Show spoiler]need the briefcase machine to go into dreams? How did they get into Saitos limbo again? I dont remember Leo or Ellen killing themselves in dream 3.

[Show spoiler]Ok. Cobb & Ariadne link into Fischer to get to where he confronts Mal. However, Fischer & Ariadne get kicked back to the "hospital" level (I think it looks more like a military bunker). Cobb sticks around, gets stabbed by Mal, and either dies from that or loses his connection to the kick ladder when Fischer's dream collapses around him as Fischer and Ariadne are kicked back without him. THAT is why Cobb end up in limbo with Saito.

Originally Posted by Blu3

[Show spoiler]Yeah, but hang on a second - Cobb tells us that the reason why Mal thought the real world was fake and limbo was real was because of the idea that he planted in her, which was also the 1st inception, and not the mental age related to the time they spent down there. The idea he planted in her was that the world they were in was fake, which at that time was the limbo world (dream, really), to try and get her to come back to reality. When they woke up, Mal still had that idea in her head, which is what caused her to (again) believe that the world around her was fake (only this time it wasn't) and commit suicide in order to get to what she thought was the real world - back to limbo. Did I miss something?

Yup, you definitely missed something. A bit of a misunderstanding in your perception here as well.

[Show spoiler]When Mal killed herself by jumping off of the building, she WAS NOT trying to get back to limbo. The idea that Cobb planted became a virus that Mal would believe every reality she was in was another level of dreaming from which to "wake up." No matter the actual state of consciousness she was in. Therefore, she wasn't trying to "get back to limbo because she believed that to be her reality," as you put it. She figured that believing her current reality (the actual reality) was a dream, that killing herself was the only way to get back to her reality. So, she tried. At least having killed herself, she'll never know that she was wrong. So, she was never trying to get back to limbo. She was trying to, essentially, kick herself back to reality. But, alas, she was already there.

[mjbethancourt]

Originally Posted by Petra_Kalbrain

This is wrong. The machine only controls how long in perceived time the dreamers will remain sedated in that particular level. It has nothing to do with controlling how the length of the dream is perceived. No matter what they do with the machine, they can't make 2 minutes in one level seem like whatever amount of time they wish in the next level. That's a variable that can't be controlled. Yussuf has no power to change how time is perceived in any dream state. Nor does the machine. He only has the power to keep you sleeping for a certain period of time. How the subsequent time is perceived is out of everyones control.

You're wrong, Petra, go watch it again. Yusuf specifically explains that he tailors his compounds for different time-scales, among other things. He explicitly states that the one he uses for the inception mission is designed for a longer scale than the '5 min. = 1 hour' compound that Cobb typically uses, and he also says that the compound that he uses in his dream-room in Mombasa is for an especially long time scale.

[Petra_Kalbrain]

Originally Posted by mjbethancourt

You're wrong, Petra, go watch it again. Yusuf specifically explains that he tailors his compounds for different time-scales, among other things. He explicitly states that the one he uses for the inception mission is designed for a longer scale than the '5 min. = 1 hour' compound that Cobb typically uses, and he also says that the compound that he uses in his dream-room in Mombasa is for an especially long time scale.

That is not what is meant when he talks about that.

[Show spoiler]He talks about how effective the compound is at keeping people in a deep sleep long enough for those types of durations to occur. He can't affect the perception of time. The calculations are always based on the same scale. The first time we hear about that Ariadne is being trained. The next time we hear it Yussuf is trying to explain how potent his chemical is in allowing for deeper dreaming states which, in turn, expand the experience. His "den of dreaming" customers can go to levels deep enough to allow for 40 hours of dream time each day only because they can get layered deep enough into the dream levels to allow them to expand the experience without the stability of the dream collapsing.

[ScarredLungs]

Originally Posted by mjbethancourt

You're wrong, Petra, go watch it again. Yusuf specifically explains that he tailors his compounds for different time-scales, among other things. He explicitly states that the one he uses for the inception mission is designed for a longer scale than the '5 min. = 1 hour' compound that Cobb typically uses, and he also says that the compound that he uses in his dream-room in Mombasa is for an especially long time scale.

Actually, I believe you are wrong. The compound are tailored, yes, but that is for the intent to keep them under. It does not increase or decrease the time difference between the real world and the dream world. Yusuf does mention that the deeper the sleep, the time ratio is compounded. Indirectly the compound affects the time scale, but there is no direct correlation between the two.

Since they were going deep (3 levels), the dreams were less stable so they needed a stronger compound. Since they were in a deeper sleep, the time scale was magnified.

[mjbethancourt]

Originally Posted by cvm

Actually, I believe you are wrong. The compound are tailored, yes, but that is for the intent to keep them under. It does not increase or decrease the time difference between the real world and the dream world. Yusuf does mention that the deeper the sleep, the time ratio is compounded. Indirectly the compound affects the time scale, but there is no direct correlation between the two.

Since they were going deep (3 levels), the dreams were less stable so they needed a stronger compound. Since they were in a deeper sleep, the time scale was magnified.

He said BOTH. Yes, the deeper the level, the more expanded the scale is... but he also said that even at the first level, the scale would be more expanded with his compound versus the one they normally use.

Petra, your statement "the calculations are always based on the same scale" is flat-out wrong. Yusuf explicitly contradicts that statement. He said that his compound was stronger and would give them a full week at the first level. Are you going to make me have to cite a copy of the script to prove that?

[Petra_Kalbrain]

Originally Posted by mjbethancourt

He said BOTH. Yes, the deeper the level, the more expanded the scale is... but he also said that even at the first level, the scale would be more expanded with his compound versus the one they normally use.

Petra, your statement "the calculations are always based on the same scale" is flat-out wrong. Yusuf explicitly contradicts that statement. He said that his compound was stronger and would give them a full week at the first level. Are you going to make me have to cite a copy of the script to prove that?

Yes. I will make you cite the script.

[Show spoiler]I'm telling you right now that I never heard Yussuf say that he could control the exponential effects of time in each dream level. And I listened carefully to everything in the film both times I saw it. He never said that he was going to give them a week in the first level. He said that his compound would be strong enough to keep them under all three levels for the duration of what would be a weeks worth of dream time on the first level. That statement was based on a calculation of the regular scale of difference in time to keep them asleep on the plane for a certain duration. He knew that he could keep them asleep on the plane for 'x' amount of time, which would then translate to 1 week in the first level of dreaming.

There seems to be a slight difference in our understanding of what was said. I'm going to try and see it twice (maybe thrice) more times this weekend + Monday. I'm 99% certain though that Yussuf is just doing a calculation based on what everyone already knows about how time is affected by dreaming levels.

[radagast]

Originally Posted by Petra_Kalbrain

Ok. Cobb & Ariadne link into Fischer to get to where he confronts Mal. However, Fischer & Ariadne get kicked back to the "hospital" level (I think it looks more like a military bunker). Cobb sticks around, gets stabbed by Mal, and either dies from that or loses his connection to the kick ladder when Fischer's dream collapses around him as Fischer and Ariadne are kicked back without him. THAT is why Cobb end up in limbo with Saito.

Not quite correct. Ariadne was still with Cobb when Mal stabbed him. Ariadne then shot Mal and THEN took Fischer back "up".

[Petra_Kalbrain]

Originally Posted by radagast

Not quite correct. Ariadne was still with Cobb when Mal stabbed him. Ariadne then shot Mal and THEN took Fischer back "up".

Ok. I wasn't being as attentive when writing that post.

[Show spoiler]My intention was to point out the fact that he stuck around and the fact that he got stabbed.

I wasn't trying to specify the order in which those two particular events took place.

[CYMBOL]

Originally Posted by Petra_Kalbrain

All kinds of simple misunderstandings in that post.

#3. A kick is something that has to happen a level down from your current state of subconsciousness. So, in Saito & Cobb's case, they would have to be kicked in the real world since they lost connection to the kick ladder. And, since they were in limbo, as stated in #2, a real world kick would not work in getting them back to reality.

A big misunderstanding in that post.

Seriously though - the kick ladder was used so that everyone would wake up at the same time in the real world, after the drugs effect had worn away enough to allow them to awake. (I assume, so that they could wake up together and hide the evidence, etc. before the mark woke up).

Mal and Cobb kicked themselves out after their time was up (probably over their time, since Cobb had to work to convince Mal to leave) - that proves that you can kick yourself out of limbo - after the predertermined time is up - you can wake up - but Mal wouldn't leave, so he had to convince her to agree to the kick/death.

Cobb and Saito could kick themselves back awake - but only after their time was up - for Saito, it looked like he had done his time.

Fun stuff!

[Petra_Kalbrain]

Originally Posted by CYMBOL

A big misunderstanding in that post.

Seriously though - the kick ladder was used so that everyone would wake up at the same time in the real world, after the drugs effect had worn away enough to allow them to awake. (I assume, so that they could wake up together and hide the evidence, etc. before the mark woke up).

Mal and Cobb kicked themselves out after their time was up (probably over their time, since Cobb had to work to convince Mal to leave) - that proves that you can kick yourself out of limbo - after the predertermined time is up - you can wake up - but Mal wouldn't leave, so he had to convince her to agree to the kick/death.

Cobb and Saito could kick themselves back awake - but only after their time was up - for Saito, it looked like he had done his time.

Fun stuff!

Nope. Technically

[Show spoiler]lying on the train tracks and shooting oneself in the head (we assume that's what Cobb & Saito did) are not considered kicks. The notion of a kick is something physical that is done TO THE SLEEPING BODY in order to wake them up. You cannot be kicked from within the dream you already experiencing. It's only a kick if you are experiencing it the level down from a sleeping state. Hence the reference in Ariadne's training about the eardrum having maintained it's equilibrium faculties over the millenia of human evolution.

Also, once in limbo, there is no timer that comes into play. You are disconnected completely from reality. The death of your subconsciousness is the only way to reactivate your consciousness.

[CYMBOL]

Originally Posted by Petra_Kalbrain

Nope. Technically

[Show spoiler]lying on the train tracks and shooting oneself in the head (we assume that's what Cobb & Saito did) are not considered kicks. The notion of a kick is something physical that is done TO THE SLEEPING BODY in order to wake them up. You cannot be kicked from within the dream you already experiencing. It's only a kick if you are experiencing it the level down from a sleeping state. Hence the reference in Ariadne's training about the eardrum having maintained it's equilibrium faculties over the millenia of human evolution.

Also, once in limbo, there is no timer that comes into play. You are disconnected completely from reality. The death of your subconsciousness is the only way to reactivate your consciousness.

Ah, ok - well, I was going with the notion that killing oneself was considered a "kick" as well.

Thanks for the clarification.

[Buddy Christ]

Originally Posted by Petra_Kalbrain

Yes. I will make you cite the script.

[Show spoiler]I'm telling you right now that I never heard Yussuf say that he could control the exponential effects of time in each dream level. And I listened carefully to everything in the film both times I saw it. He never said that he was going to give them a week in the first level. He said that his compound would be strong enough to keep them under all three levels for the duration of what would be a weeks worth of dream time on the first level. That statement was based on a calculation of the regular scale of difference in time to keep them asleep on the plane for a certain duration. He knew that he could keep them asleep on the plane for 'x' amount of time, which would then translate to 1 week in the first level of dreaming.

There seems to be a slight difference in our understanding of what was said. I'm going to try and see it twice (maybe thrice) more times this weekend + Monday. I'm 99% certain though that Yussuf is just doing a calculation based on what everyone already knows about how time is affected by dreaming levels.

[Show spoiler] Wrong,he does state he can control time with the amount of sedative.

Originally Posted by Petra_Kalbrain

Nope. Technically

[Show spoiler]lying on the train tracks and shooting oneself in the head (we assume that's what Cobb & Saito did) are not considered kicks. The notion of a kick is something physical that is done TO THE SLEEPING BODY in order to wake them up. You cannot be kicked from within the dream you already experiencing. It's only a kick if you are experiencing it the level down from a sleeping state. Hence the reference in Ariadne's training about the eardrum having maintained it's equilibrium faculties over the millenia of human evolution.

Also, once in limbo, there is no timer that comes into play. You are disconnected completely from reality. The death of your subconsciousness is the only way to reactivate your consciousness.

[Show spoiler]A kick can happen in a dream, that is why Arthur simulates gravity in the elevator to make them feel like they are falling.

I have seen a least ten minutes of Inception five days a week ever since it came out and have seen it a full 5 times.

[Petra_Kalbrain]

Originally Posted by Buddy Christ

[Show spoiler] Wrong,he does state he can control time with the amount of sedative.

I want to see the script then.

[Show spoiler]Both times I understood it to mean that he could control a longer deep sleep with amazing stability. I still maintain that he can't effect how much longer each dream level will be perceived. That type of thing is far to deeply rooted in the human psyche to be manipulated.

Originally Posted by Buddy Christ

[Show spoiler]A kick can happen in a dream, that is why Arthur simulates gravity in the elevator to make them feel like they are falling.

WE ARE IN AGREEMENT THEN.

[Show spoiler]I stated that a kick is only able to be performed as a physical action to the person asleep in the dream level. So, When Arthur performs the kick in the elevator, he is still performing a kick ON THE PEOPLE WHO ARE ASLEEP. He does not perform the kick on himself. So, the elevator brings the team back from that next level of dreaming. Someone else implied that the scenario you mentioned would have sent Arthur back to the van instead of the van hitting the water sending him back. What I was counterpointing was that somebody was saying something along the lines of, "Why don't Saito & Cobb just perform a kick on themselves to get out of limbo instead of killing themselves?" Or... something like that. THAT is the situation that is not possible. You can't kick yourself from within the dream in which you are consciously (or subconsciously?) active. It either has to happen as a physical jolt to your sleeping body in the previous level or the drug/timer in the machine used in the previous level has to wear out/end.

So, we are in agreement that a kick can take place in a dream, however it cannot be initiated by someone from within their immediate personal experience. And, I don't consider death a kick by the definition of 'kick' in the film. Death within a dream is something completely different than a kick.

[Buddy Christ]

Originally Posted by Petra_Kalbrain

I want to see the script then.

[Show spoiler]Both times I understood it to mean that he could control a longer deep sleep with amazing stability. I still maintain that he can't effect how much longer each dream level will be perceived. That type of thing is far to deeply rooted in the human psyche to be manipulated.

WE ARE IN AGREEMENT THEN.

[Show spoiler]I stated that a kick is only able to be performed as a physical action to the person asleep in the dream level. So, When Arthur performs the kick in the elevator, he is still performing a kick ON THE PEOPLE WHO ARE ASLEEP. He does not perform the kick on himself. So, the elevator brings the team back from that next level of dreaming. Someone else implied that the scenario you mentioned would have sent Arthur back to the van instead of the van hitting the water sending him back. What I was counterpointing was that somebody was saying something along the lines of, "Why don't Saito & Cobb just perform a kick on themselves to get out of limbo instead of killing themselves?" Or... something like that. THAT is the situation that is not possible. You can't kick yourself from within the dream in which you are consciously (or subconsciously?) active. It either has to happen as a physical jolt to your sleeping body in the previous level or the drug/timer in the machine used in the previous level has to wear out/end.

So, we are in agreement that a kick can take place in a dream, however it cannot be initiated by someone from within their immediate personal experience. And, I don't consider death a kick by the definition of 'kick' in the film. Death within a dream is something completely different than a kick.

OK I will try to write it down tonight or tomorrow. If I can "pop in" at the right time.

[Blu3]

Originally Posted by Petra_Kalbrain

[Show spoiler]#1. Diagram doesn't show Cobb & Saito get out of limbo because that is never clearly portrayed in the film. - Blue3: but it clearly happened - Besides, it doesn't matter if they actually did or not. - Blue3: some of us just want to know what happened or why in certain scenes because we enjoyed every moment of it and the "smarts" behind it - The film is about Cobb's journey to conquer his personal issues. - Blue3: The movie is also about a man who's trying to get back to his children (and country for that matter) after being set up by his wife, and to do that he has to let her go emotionally (and get over his self-blame for it), or as you put it, "conquer his personal issues", and also do a little job for Saito (Fischer) - That is why Nolan is so ambiguous after Cobb confronts and denies his Mal projection. So, no need to acknowledge it on the diagram. - Blue: the diagram appears to show people going in and out of dreams throughout the Fisher job, and I simply pointed out that Cobb and Saito's little trip to limbo was missing. Not a biggie -

[Show spoiler]

Originally Posted by Petra_Kalbrain

#4. Saito being old makes perfect sense. Each level of dream has an exponentially more dense time conceptualization. They explain it clearly in the film. Something like 1 minute in the real world could be a decade in limbo (rough estimate from my memory, not actual number used in film). Cobb & Mal were in limbo for 50 years together, but when they woke up from it it seemed like they had only just been asleep for a few hours in the real world. So, since Saito died a few minutes before Cobb followed him to limbo, Saito experience would have been exponentially longer during that time. Thus, he lived a lifetime before Cobb could get to him.

I agree that Saito would've aged in the few minutes that it took for Cobb to go in after him, it just seemed like he aged a little too much when compared to Cobb and his wife's sleep, which was for a few hours if I recal, yet it only translated to 50 years, so a few minutes shouldn't have translated to a similar 50 years (lifetime) or at least the 20-40 years older that Saito looked like. In any case, I'll buy it.

Originally Posted by Petra_Kalbrain

5. A limbo shared by two or more dreamers will share the same time sensitivity. However, if those dreamers don't show up at the exact same time, whoever gets there first will be alone for quite some time in the matter of seconds between each persons arrival.

Well, you can see my first answer above on this, and I'll also add this to it - Cobb was already in level 3 of a dream world, where time is exponentially slower than the real world, so the difference in time between level 3 and limbo should have been much smaller than that between the real world and limbo, therefore, Saito shouldn't have aged that much. Like I said, I'll buy it for now, but I still find it odd that when Cobb found him, he was still young and Saito was very, very old. It's almost as if Saito's limbo was one level deeper than Cobb, Mal, Ariadne and Fischer's limbo.

Originally Posted by Petra_Kalbrain

Ok. Cobb & Ariadne link into Fischer to get to where he confronts Mal. However, Fischer & Ariadne get kicked back to the "hospital" level (I think it looks more like a military bunker). Cobb sticks around, gets stabbed by Mal, and either dies from that or loses his connection to the kick ladder when Fischer's dream collapses around him as Fischer and Ariadne are kicked back without him - Blue3: few things here: aren't they supposed to be in limbo in this level? If so, how can they "kick" themselves out, which they clearly do (Ariadne and Fischer by jumping)? If they are all in limbo, there shouldn't be any ties to any kick ladder, as you've mentioned. Or are they not in limbo after all? This could then explain the aging difference between Cobb and Saito afterwards... - . THAT is why Cobb end up in limbo with Saito. - Blue3: actually, that is how. The why is because Cobb needs Saito to finish his end of the deal in order to get back into the US and, ultimately, to his children -