INCEPTION Review Thread (SPOILERS!!)

[mjbethancourt]

I don't know if this confuses things further, or clears anything up, but Saito did not "die" on level 1, he got his wound on level 1. He was with them at the base on level 3 when he "died".

[Batman1980]

Originally Posted by mjbethancourt

I don't know if this confuses things further, or clears anything up, but Saito did not "die" on level 1, he got his wound on level 1. He was with them at the base on level 3 when he "died".

[Show spoiler]Yup, otherwise they wouldn't have been able to take him with them to level 3, he would've gone to limbo already and probably would've already gotten out by the time they got down there.

[Blu3]

Originally Posted by mjbethancourt

I don't know if this confuses things further, or clears anything up, but Saito did not "die" on level 1, he got his wound on level 1. He was with them at the base on level 3 when he "died".

Originally Posted by Gandalf Stormcrow

[Show spoiler]Yup, otherwise they wouldn't have been able to take him with them to level 3, he would've gone to limbo already and probably would've already gotten out by the time they got down there.

Not really. He was alive in the van long enough for them to reach level 3. We "see" him die in level 3 because that's where the story/movie was, but he could've died in any level, really, and it wouldn't have made a difference, he still would've gone straight to limbo, which he did.

And even though we see him die in level 3, the odds are he died back in level 1 (the van), because this is where he's bleeding to death faster, especially with the time differentials between the dream levels (hard to believe he would've bled that fast in the few minutes he spent in level 3, which were nano seconds in level 1 time). His wound also seemed to get smaller with each subsequent dream level, as we see him bleed less and less, but back in level 1, he's still bleeding to death in the van.

If you are in level 3 of a dream, your life back in levels 1 and 2 are still vulnerable to attack, which is why we see Yusuuf desperately running away from all the bullets with everyone in the van and Arthur bodyguarding them in the hotel room. If any of them dies during this time, in level 1 or 2, they would go straight to limbo and also "die" in level 3, thereby jeopardizing the entire mission.

What do you guys think?

[Buddy Christ]

Originally Posted by Blu3

Not really. He was alive in the van long enough for them to reach level 3. We "see" him die in level 3 because that's where the story/movie was, but he could've died in any level, really, and it wouldn't have made a difference, he still would've gone straight to limbo, which he did.

And even though we see him die in level 3, the odds are he died back in level 1 (the van), because this is where he's bleeding to death faster, especially with the time differentials between the dream levels (hard to believe he would've bled that fast in the few minutes he spent in level 3, which were nano seconds in level 1 time). His wound also seemed to get smaller with each subsequent dream level, as we see him bleed less and less, but back in level 1, he's still bleeding to death in the van.

If you are in level 3 of a dream, your life back in levels 1 and 2 are still vulnerable to attack, which is why we see Yusuuf desperately running away from all the bullets with everyone in the van and Arthur bodyguarding them in the hotel room. If any of them dies during this time, in level 1 or 2, they would go straight to limbo and also "die" in level 3, thereby jeopardizing the entire mission.

What do you guys think?

Agreed. If you have a potentially fatal wound in say L1 and are about to die, going deeper will give you more "dream" time at the lower level. But whatever level you got injured on and you die in that level you end up dying at all other levels. Going deeper just slows down the process and gives you more time. Had Yuseff not been able to avoid the bullets and everyone got shot, then everyone would have been sent to limbo and had a party with Saito and Fischer and Cobb.

[mjbethancourt]

Originally Posted by Blu3

Not really. He was alive in the van long enough for them to reach level 3. We "see" him die in level 3 because that's where the story/movie was, but he could've died in any level, really, and it wouldn't have made a difference, he still would've gone straight to limbo, which he did.

And even though we see him die in level 3, the odds are he died back in level 1 (the van), because this is where he's bleeding to death faster, especially with the time differentials between the dream levels (hard to believe he would've bled that fast in the few minutes he spent in level 3, which were nano seconds in level 1 time). His wound also seemed to get smaller with each subsequent dream level, as we see him bleed less and less, but back in level 1, he's still bleeding to death in the van.

If you are in level 3 of a dream, your life back in levels 1 and 2 are still vulnerable to attack, which is why we see Yusuuf desperately running away from all the bullets with everyone in the van and Arthur bodyguarding them in the hotel room. If any of them dies during this time, in level 1 or 2, they would go straight to limbo and also "die" in level 3, thereby jeopardizing the entire mission.

What do you guys think?

I think that at that point, they are "in" four places at once, (the plane, the van, the hotel, the base), and three of them are dreams; however, they are consciously in one place, the base. So, what I said was correct, in the sense that consciously, Saito is at the base when he "dies", from a wound that he got in the cab. What you say is also correct, that it is in the van where he is in the most jeopardy, and events at that level of dreaming (such as his wound) are still influencing Saito's experience at the mountain base level.

[radagast]

Originally Posted by mjbethancourt

I don't know if this confuses things further, or clears anything up, but Saito did not "die" on level 1, he got his wound on level 1. He was with them at the base on level 3 when he "died".

He died on level 3 because he "died" on level 1 where he was shot. Once he died on level 1, he would naturally die on every level below that. When the van was submerged in water at the end, Arthur takes the breathing mask to Cobb and sees he is still asleep. When he and Ariadne leave the van, you can see Saito also "out" to the left of the screen.

Originally Posted by Gandalf Stormcrow

[Show spoiler]They got to limbo by continuing to push the limits of dreaming, which is how he knew it was possible to get to 3 levels of dreaming when he set up the mission to go after Fischer.

But do you remember that Cobb said Saito would go to limbo if he was killed on the first level of dreaming, right?

[Blu3]

Originally Posted by radagast

He died on level 3 because he "died" on level 1 where he was shot. Once he died on level 1, he would naturally die on every level below that. When the van was submerged in water at the end, Arthur takes the breathing mask to Cobb and sees he is still asleep. When he and Ariadne leave the van, you can see Saito also "out" to the left of the screen.

Yup, because Cobb and Saito are still in limbo at this time (van in the water). When they finally get out of limbo, they go (wake up) straight to the real world (the plane). Is that correct?

[Foggy]

Originally Posted by Blu3

Yup, because Cobb and Saito are still in limbo at this time (van in the water). When they finally get out of limbo, they go (wake up) straight to the real world (the plane). Is that correct?

Yeah that is right

[Petra_Kalbrain]

Originally Posted by radagast

I was supporting what you said.



That doesn't make sense. How would Saito have just skipped 2 levels and gone straight to Limbo, unless Limbo is independent of "dream levels"? When Cobb said that about Saito, they were all in a level one dream. Furthermore, Cobb had already escaped from Limbo once, according to Arthur. Additionally there was no indication that Cobb and Mal had been through 3 levels of dreaming before they went into Limbo. There is no hard evidence in the movie that the only thing after level 3 is limbo.

Originally Posted by mjbethancourt

I don't know if this confuses things further, or clears anything up, but Saito did not "die" on level 1, he got his wound on level 1. He was with them at the base on level 3 when he "died".

Originally Posted by Buddy Christ

Agreed. If you have a potentially fatal wound in say L1 and are about to die, going deeper will give you more "dream" time at the lower level. But whatever level you got injured on and you die in that level you end up dying at all other levels. Going deeper just slows down the process and gives you more time. Had Yuseff not been able to avoid the bullets and everyone got shot, then everyone would have been sent to limbo and had a party with Saito and Fischer and Cobb.

Originally Posted by mjbethancourt

I think that at that point, they are "in" four places at once, (the plane, the van, the hotel, the base), and three of them are dreams; however, they are consciously in one place, the base. So, what I said was correct, in the sense that consciously, Saito is at the base when he "dies", from a wound that he got in the cab. What you say is also correct, that it is in the van where he is in the most jeopardy, and events at that level of dreaming (such as his wound) are still influencing Saito's experience at the mountain base level.

[Show spoiler]It doesn't matter what level Saito or anyone "technically" died in. The fact that they were so heavily sedated means that they would go to limbo whether they died in level 1, 2, or 3. Limbo is not level 4. Limbo is just a big open pit that is just always there. It has no level associated with it. Thinking of limbo as a 4th level just makes things more confusing and really is a moot point in discussing about. There could be 400 levels of dreams and that would make limbo level 401! But why get caught up in that? Can't we just say that it is evident that limbo is the deepest state of the dream state which is attainable only through means of subconscious separation from your waking consciousness?

As for Ariadne & Cobb following Fischer, THEY HAVE TO HAVE JACKED INTO HIM. They didn't die to get into limbo with Fischer. They wanted to make sure they had a safety net back up along the kick ladder. Otherwise they would risk being lost forever in limbo. Otherwise, when Cobb dies after confronting Mal, he would have just woke in the process of the kick ladder. Ariadne fell back to the military hosptial and Cobb did not. THAT tells me that they had to have linked into him. I'm certain that I saw Ariadne grab a metal suitcase just like every other dream machine we'd seen up until then while they are getting ready to go after Fischer. The defibrelator was in a different type of case.

So, if Cobb & Ariadne didn't link into Fischer with a dream machine AND they didn't kill themselves, how did they travel into limbo to rescue him? THAT does not make any sense in regards to the rules that the film spent hours establishing.

[mjbethancourt]

Originally Posted by Petra_Kalbrain

[Show spoiler]It doesn't matter what level Saito or anyone "technically" died in. The fact that they were so heavily sedated means that they would go to limbo whether they died in level 1, 2, or 3. Limbo is not level 4. Limbo is just a big open pit that is just always there. It has no level associated with it. Thinking of limbo as a 4th level just makes things more confusing and really is a moot point in discussing about. There could be 400 levels of dreams and that would make limbo level 401! But why get caught up in that? Can't we just say that it is evident that limbo is the deepest state of the dream state which is attainable only through means of subconscious separation from your waking consciousness?

As for Ariadne & Cobb following Fischer, THEY HAVE TO HAVE JACKED INTO HIM. They didn't die to get into limbo with Fischer. They wanted to make sure they had a safety net back up along the kick ladder. Otherwise they would risk being lost forever in limbo. Otherwise, when Cobb dies after confronting Mal, he would have just woke in the process of the kick ladder. Ariadne fell back to the military hosptial and Cobb did not. THAT tells me that they had to have linked into him. I'm certain that I saw Ariadne grab a metal suitcase just like every other dream machine we'd seen up until then while they are getting ready to go after Fischer. The defibrelator was in a different type of case.

So, if Cobb & Ariadne didn't link into Fischer with a dream machine AND they didn't kill themselves, how did they travel into limbo to rescue him? THAT does not make any sense in regards to the rules that the film spent hours establishing.

It's not up for debate whether Cobb and Ariadne used a dream-link machine to get to limbo. They did, end of story. But just because they used the machine, doesn't mean they hooked into Fischer. They wouldn't need to hook into him to get into limbo, all they would need to do is use the machine to drop a level beyond what they had pre-constructed: how do you think Cobb and Mal got into Limbo in their disastrous experiment? By hooking into somebody that was already there? Of course not. The film did not "spend hours establishing the rule" that you have to kill yourself in an over-sedated dream state or hook into somebody who is already there, in order to get to Limbo. There is no basis for jumping to that conclusion. All they ever said was that killing yourself in a deeply sedated dream-state was one way to get there, they never said it was the only way.

Of course, it's possible that they did hook into him, I don't remember if they did or not, (I don't think they did, and it wouldn't really make much sense, Limbo is not Fischer's dream); but my point is, it was never established as a necessary rule that it would be the only way to get there. Ariadne kicking back up to the hospital base doesn't really prove anything (other than that she was still in touch with a kick back to that level because she used a machine to drop to Limbo), after all, Fischer didn't use a machine to drop to Limbo, yet the defibrillator still kicked him back up to that level to complete the mission. You're inventing rules where there are none. The whole point of that scene was that Ariadne came up with a clever improvisation to complete the mission, and such improvisation would not be possible if the rules were so rigid.

As for the following:

Otherwise, when Cobb dies after confronting Mal, he would have just woke in the process of the kick ladder. Ariadne fell back to the military hosptial and Cobb did not. THAT tells me that they had to have linked into him.

Do you care to explain the logic of that? How does Ariadne following the kick-chain, while Cobb missed it, prove that they were hooked into Fischer? If anything, it would disprove that they were hooked into Fischer. That is what we call a non sequitur, a classic logical fallacy.

[Petra_Kalbrain]

Originally Posted by mjbethancourt

It's not up for debate whether Cobb and Ariadne used a dream-link machine to get to limbo. They did, end of story. But just because they used the machine, doesn't mean they hooked into Fischer. They wouldn't need to hook into him to get into limbo, all they would need to do is use the machine to drop a level beyond what they had pre-constructed: how do you think Cobb and Mal got into Limbo in their disastrous experiment? By hooking into somebody that was already there? Of course not. The film did not "spend hours establishing the rule" that you have to kill yourself in an over-sedated dream state or hook into somebody who is already there, in order to get to Limbo. There is no basis for jumping to that conclusion. All they ever said was that killing yourself in a deeply sedated dream-state was one way to get there, they never said it was the only way.

Of course, it's possible that they did hook into him, I don't remember if they did or not, (I don't think they did, and it wouldn't really make much sense, Limbo is not Fischer's dream); but my point is, it was never established as a necessary rule that it would be the only way to get there. Ariadne kicking back up to the hospital base doesn't really prove anything (other than that she was still in touch with a kick back to that level because she used a machine to drop to Limbo), after all, Fischer didn't use a machine to drop to Limbo, yet the defibrillator still kicked him back up to that level to complete the mission. You're inventing rules where there are none. The whole point of that scene was that Ariadne came up with a clever improvisation to complete the mission, and such improvisation would not be possible if the rules were so rigid.

[Show spoiler]Some people are adamant that Cobb & Ariadne didn't link to Fischer's dying/dead body in order to find him in limbo. So, there is a debate about it. And that is the only guaranteed way for them to know that they will be able to follow him. Without that direct connection they would be hoping that they would find themselves in limbo. In my mind, just going to sleep in level 3 in hopes to land in limbo would be like tossing a pebble into the shallowest part of the ocean and hoping to knock out a ***** whale with it. Cobb and Ariadne sharing a dream via the machine in hopes to get to limbo without a direct physical connection to Fischer is just too big a leap for me to believe. In that case they would most likely just end up in another dream space where it's not architecturally designed, but still one of their dreams.

Cobb and Mal got to limbo by not understanding the nature of dreams within dreams. At some point they lost their connection with their kick ladder back to reality. Obviously that is not what happens with Ariadne since she woke up in level 3. If her and Cobb had entered limbo the same way as Cobb and Mal, she would have woken up in the plane after jumping off of the building instead of riding the kick ladder back.

The defibrelator didn't "kick" Fischer back to the level 3 dream. It REVIVED him. That is a major difference. Remember that the human brain doesn't officially die right away, so it's plausible that they would be able to link to him because of that.

Originally Posted by mjbethancourt

Do you care to explain the logic of that? How does Ariadne following the kick-chain, while Cobb missed it, prove that they were hooked into Fischer? If anything, it would disprove that they were hooked into Fischer. That is what we call a non sequitur, a classic logical fallacy.

[Show spoiler]First, it means everything! Ariadne jumped off of the building and died. She woke in level 3. Cobb dies of his wounds? He should ALSO wake up in level 3. Cobb doesn't die of his wounds? He would be woken by the kick in level 3. He gets sent to his own limbo experience. Therefore, he loses his link to Fischer and thusly "gets lost." Thus, being forced into his own limbo experience (waking on the shoreline).

Like every other beginning to someone's experience in limbo, his body ends up in the ocean near/on the shoreline. The logic of him and Ariadne having the physical link to Fischer proves that his loss of THAT SPECIFIC connection forces him into HIS OWN limbo. If, as many say, Cobb and Ariadne get lost in limbo via the dream machine WITHOUT linking into Fischer, then he would just be able to continue on his merry way from where he was when Ariadne left. But, he didn't. He "rebooted" into limbo. This tells me that he had to have linked to Fischer. Otherwise he would wake in the plane or be able to walk out the door and start looking for Saito. His wounds from Mal wouldn't have killed him THAT quickly. Also, if Ariadne was connected to the dream machine and NOT connected to Fischer while having lost herself to limbo, she would have woken up in the plane and not followed the kick ladder back. Cobb and Mal got back to reality in one fell swoop, so why would Ariadne be any different? Being down there so long, Cobb and Mal would have missed whatever kick ladder they had established for themselves to get back, so they had to have come straight back to reality.

So, they had to be linked into Fischer. Otherwise, there are far too many "shot in the dark" coincidences that "just so happen to go their way perfectly" points for me to accept.

[mjbethancourt]

I think you've succeeded at confusing yourself... yet another Inception!

[zahinn]

Question about the ending. The scenes where Cobb is talking Saito after he washes up on the shore; why is it that its different in the ending compared to the opening ?

[JTStarkiller]

How so?

[vegeta88]

I remember it being the same shots, just cut differently.

I'm trying to get people rallied to see it so I can see it a third time.

[Buddy Christ]

Originally Posted by Petra_Kalbrain

[Show spoiler]Some people are adamant that Cobb & Ariadne didn't link to Fischer's dying/dead body in order to find him in limbo. So, there is a debate about it. And that is the only guaranteed way for them to know that they will be able to follow him. Without that direct connection they would be hoping that they would find themselves in limbo. In my mind, just going to sleep in level 3 in hopes to land in limbo would be like tossing a pebble into the shallowest part of the ocean and hoping to knock out a ***** whale with it. Cobb and Ariadne sharing a dream via the machine in hopes to get to limbo without a direct physical connection to Fischer is just too big a leap for me to believe. In that case they would most likely just end up in another dream space where it's not architecturally designed, but still one of their dreams.

Cobb and Mal got to limbo by not understanding the nature of dreams within dreams. At some point they lost their connection with their kick ladder back to reality. Obviously that is not what happens with Ariadne since she woke up in level 3. If her and Cobb had entered limbo the same way as Cobb and Mal, she would have woken up in the plane after jumping off of the building instead of riding the kick ladder back.

The defibrelator didn't "kick" Fischer back to the level 3 dream. It REVIVED him. That is a major difference. Remember that the human brain doesn't officially die right away, so it's plausible that they would be able to link to him because of that.

[Show spoiler]First, it means everything! Ariadne jumped off of the building and died. She woke in level 3. Cobb dies of his wounds? He should ALSO wake up in level 3. Cobb doesn't die of his wounds? He would be woken by the kick in level 3. He gets sent to his own limbo experience. Therefore, he loses his link to Fischer and thusly "gets lost." Thus, being forced into his own limbo experience (waking on the shoreline).

Like every other beginning to someone's experience in limbo, his body ends up in the ocean near/on the shoreline. The logic of him and Ariadne having the physical link to Fischer proves that his loss of THAT SPECIFIC connection forces him into HIS OWN limbo. If, as many say, Cobb and Ariadne get lost in limbo via the dream machine WITHOUT linking into Fischer, then he would just be able to continue on his merry way from where he was when Ariadne left. But, he didn't. He "rebooted" into limbo. This tells me that he had to have linked to Fischer. Otherwise he would wake in the plane or be able to walk out the door and start looking for Saito. His wounds from Mal wouldn't have killed him THAT quickly. Also, if Ariadne was connected to the dream machine and NOT connected to Fischer while having lost herself to limbo, she would have woken up in the plane and not followed the kick ladder back. Cobb and Mal got back to reality in one fell swoop, so why would Ariadne be any different? Being down there so long, Cobb and Mal would have missed whatever kick ladder they had established for themselves to get back, so they had to have come straight back to reality.

So, they had to be linked into Fischer. Otherwise, there are far too many "shot in the dark" coincidences that "just so happen to go their way perfectly" points for me to accept.

Watch the movie again. The dream machine gives you a sedative. Why would you give a dead guy a sedative? Fischer is not, not not hooked up to the machine!

[RudyC]

Originally Posted by Petra_Kalbrain

Some people are adamant that Cobb & Ariadne didn't link to Fischer's dying/dead body in order to find him in limbo.

limbo is created by the people that have been there .. in this case cobb.
so cobb knew if they went in limbo to find fisher mal would have him.

[Petra_Kalbrain]

Originally Posted by Buddy Christ

Watch the movie again. The dream machine gives you a sedative. Why would you give a dead guy a sedative? Fischer is not, not not hooked up to the machine!

Originally Posted by RudyC

limbo is created by the people that have been there .. in this case cobb.
so cobb knew if they went in limbo to find fisher mal would have him.

Oh, so everyone just happens to share dreams with each other for no other reason than being in close proximity to them?

That dream machine is far more involved in the process than just sedating the people. It has to link their minds somehow.

[Batman1980]

Originally Posted by Petra_Kalbrain

Oh, so everyone just happens to share dreams with each other for no other reason than being in close proximity to them?

That dream machine is far more involved in the process than just sedating the people. It has to link their minds somehow.

[Show spoiler]The dream machine keeps everyone sedated and also monitors/controls time depending on which level they are on, probably by controlling how much sedative they are getting.

[Petra_Kalbrain]

Originally Posted by Gandalf Stormcrow

[Show spoiler]The dream machine keeps everyone sedated and also monitors/controls time depending on which level they are on, probably by controlling how much sedative they are getting.

But that raises the question, how are they sharing the dream then? That machine must ALSO link their minds together.