INCEPTION Review Thread (SPOILERS!!)

[Batman1980]

Originally Posted by Petra_Kalbrain

But that raises the question, how are they sharing the dream then? That machine must ALSO link their minds together.

[Show spoiler]I think it keeps the connection going strong yes, it must take a lot of concentration to do what they did, have a dream within a dream within a dream and get all of their stuff done.

[radagast]

Originally Posted by Petra_Kalbrain

But that raises the question, how are they sharing the dream then? That machine must ALSO link their minds together.

Exactly. That is the sci-fi aspect of the story. Otherwise they could and would, link with anybody, anywhere, who was asleep and dreaming.

[Buddy Christ]

Originally Posted by Petra_Kalbrain

But that raises the question, how are they sharing the dream then? That machine must ALSO link their minds together.

Ok yes they are all linked in the airplane so everything after that is a shared dream. But there is no reason to link to Fischer when he dies. Then how is it Cobb and Saito are in the same dream. THEY WERE NOT LINKED TOGETHER in the hospital!

[Buddy Christ]

I have to remember we are debating science FICTION and none of us really have all of the answers.

[lDlisturb3d]

hey after viewing this movie for the 4th time i noticed that cobbs

[Show spoiler]Kids are wearing the same clothes. is he still dreaming? I thought limbo was as low as you can go. If saito was an old man and they woke up on the plane that there is enough proof to say he's woke.

[Petra_Kalbrain]

Originally Posted by Buddy Christ

Ok yes they are all linked in the airplane so everything after that is a shared dream. But there is no reason to link to Fischer when he dies. Then how is it Cobb and Saito are in the same dream. THEY WERE NOT LINKED TOGETHER in the hospital!

[Show spoiler]Cobb and Saito aren't in "the same dream." They are "in limbo together." There is a distinct difference there. Because they were linked into the dream share from the start of the mission, anyone from that group would fall into the same unconstructed dreamspace (limbo) together. They are still linked in the plane, therefore they are still linked at the basest level. However, they can go on having their own experiences without the other person interfering.

LIMBO is a bit of an exception when it comes to being linked to one another within the dream level process. However, the key with limbo is that you stil have to be linked together in the real world via the dream machine. Otherwise, limbo would be populated by hundreds of thousands of people on the planet who are in comas, in deep meditation, etc. And, since limbo is only populated by those within the dream share experience, it has to be due to the physical connection with the dream machine that keeps them linked together.

There is EVERY reason to link to Fischer when he dies! If they DON'T link to Fischer then they have no idea where they will end up. Just because there was not a "designed level 4" of dreamspace, that doesn't mean that they wouldn't end up in either persons dream instead of limbo. THAT is a pretty big shot in the dark to hope to land in limbo. Again, I've used this metaphor already, it would be like throwing a pebble into the shallowest part of the ocean and hoping that the pebble will knock out a sprm whale. Those odds are not very good. Having that physical link to Fischer via the dream machine GUARANTEES that they will be following Fischer. To add to that, the fact that Ariadne wakes in the hospital level indicates that she had a kick back option available to her. That means that she must have been linked to Fischer. Otherwise, Her and Fischer killing themselves by jumping off of the building, as well as Cobb dying from his wounds, would have sent them directly back to reality from limbo and not up the kick ladder (as proven by Cobb & Mal as well as Cobb & Saito returning from limbo). Her and Cobb putting themselves to sleep to get to limbo without some kind of link to Fischer doesn't make sense because they wouldn't have a way back. They could get lost too easily if they voluntarily dropped into "their own" limbos. They piggyback on Fischer's "limbo dream." That is why the defibrelator creates the lightning storm, Ariadne makes it back to the hospital, and Cobb gets "rebooted" into his own limbo. The dream machine must keep them connected to each other's subconscious'.

IF what you say is true, then it contradicts what the film has said about limbo. It's clearly stated that nobody can come back from limbo through conventional means. And, according to you, Ariadne comes back via conventional means. For a second, let's forget the semantics of how Ariadne & Cobb went into limbo to find Fischer. Cobb & Ariadne fall asleep in level 3. They happen to wake in limbo. According to the film's exposition, ANYONE who goes to limbo (it doesn't matter how) would be lost. So, that means that NO MATTER THE CIRCUMSTANCE, returning from limbo HAS TO BE STRAIGHT TO REALITY. That defies what happens with Ariadne & Fischer. Ariadne's link to Fischer gives her the ability to go back a level. And Fischer, although dead and lost, is just RECENTLY dead. And, therefore, his "being revived" by the defibrelator brings him back to level 3. And Cobb? Since his link is causing a dream share to limbo, he FALLS INTO HIS OWN PERSONAL EXPERIENCE limbo when he dies or his link to Fischer's level 3 dreaming body collapses.

Forgive me if I repeated myself in there. I just woke up.

[Petra_Kalbrain]

Originally Posted by lDlisturb3d

hey after viewing this movie for the 4th time i noticed that cobbs

[Show spoiler]Kids are wearing the same clothes. is he still dreaming? I thought limbo was as low as you can go. If saito was an old man and they woke up on the plane that there is enough proof to say he's woke.

[Show spoiler]First of all, it doesn't matter if he is dreaming or not. He conquered his personal issues. Therefore, he can live happily no matter where his is (dream or reality). That is why Nolan never clarifies anything after Saito picks up the handgun in limbo as an old man.

Secondly, he is awake. If for no other reason than the credits. Two seperate sets of actors are listed as playing the children at two different ages. This clearly proves that the kids we see in Cobb's dreams are "as he remembers them" and the kids we see at the end are approximately 2 years older, which implies that he is seeing his kids for the first time in two years.

According to IMDB:
Claire Geare ---------- Philipa (3 years)
Magnus Nolan -------- James (20 months)
Taylor Geare --------- Philipa (age 5)
Jonathan Geare ------ James (3 years)

[lDlisturb3d]

Originally Posted by Petra_Kalbrain

[Show spoiler]First of all, it doesn't matter if he is dreaming or not. He conquered his personal issues. Therefore, he can live happily no matter where his is (dream or reality). That is why Nolan never clarifies anything after Saito picks up the handgun in limbo as an old man.

Secondly, he is awake. If for no other reason than the credits. Two seperate sets of actors are listed as playing the children at two different ages. This clearly proves that the kids we see in Cobb's dreams are "as he remembers them" and the kids we see at the end are approximately 2 years older, which implies that he is seeing his kids for the first time in two years.

According to IMDB:
Claire Geare ---------- Philipa (3 years)
Magnus Nolan -------- James (20 months)
Taylor Geare --------- Philipa (age 5)
Jonathan Geare ------ James (3 years)

Thanks this makes allot of sense

[radagast]

Originally Posted by lDlisturb3d

hey after viewing this movie for the 4th time i noticed that cobbs

[Show spoiler]Kids are wearing the same clothes. is he still dreaming? I thought limbo was as low as you can go. If saito was an old man and they woke up on the plane that there is enough proof to say he's woke.

A reviewer of the movie noted that the kids at the end are different kids than the ones in Cobb's dreams. They are also a couple of years older.

[mjbethancourt]

Originally Posted by Petra_Kalbrain

[Show spoiler]Cobb and Saito aren't in "the same dream." They are "in limbo together." There is a distinct difference there. Because they were linked into the dream share from the start of the mission, anyone from that group would fall into the same unconstructed dreamspace (limbo) together. They are still linked in the plane, therefore they are still linked at the basest level. However, they can go on having their own experiences without the other person interfering.

LIMBO is a bit of an exception when it comes to being linked to one another within the dream level process. However, the key with limbo is that you stil have to be linked together in the real world via the dream machine. Otherwise, limbo would be populated by hundreds of thousands of people on the planet who are in comas, in deep meditation, etc. And, since limbo is only populated by those within the dream share experience, it has to be due to the physical connection with the dream machine that keeps them linked together.

There is EVERY reason to link to Fischer when he dies! If they DON'T link to Fischer then they have no idea where they will end up. Just because there was not a "designed level 4" of dreamspace, that doesn't mean that they wouldn't end up in either persons dream instead of limbo. THAT is a pretty big shot in the dark to hope to land in limbo. Again, I've used this metaphor already, it would be like throwing a pebble into the shallowest part of the ocean and hoping that the pebble will knock out a sprm whale. Those odds are not very good. Having that physical link to Fischer via the dream machine GUARANTEES that they will be following Fischer. To add to that, the fact that Ariadne wakes in the hospital level indicates that she had a kick back option available to her. That means that she must have been linked to Fischer. Otherwise, Her and Fischer killing themselves by jumping off of the building, as well as Cobb dying from his wounds, would have sent them directly back to reality from limbo and not up the kick ladder (as proven by Cobb & Mal as well as Cobb & Saito returning from limbo). Her and Cobb putting themselves to sleep to get to limbo without some kind of link to Fischer doesn't make sense because they wouldn't have a way back. They could get lost too easily if they voluntarily dropped into "their own" limbos. They piggyback on Fischer's "limbo dream." That is why the defibrelator creates the lightning storm, Ariadne makes it back to the hospital, and Cobb gets "rebooted" into his own limbo. The dream machine must keep them connected to each other's subconscious'.

IF what you say is true, then it contradicts what the film has said about limbo. It's clearly stated that nobody can come back from limbo through conventional means. And, according to you, Ariadne comes back via conventional means. For a second, let's forget the semantics of how Ariadne & Cobb went into limbo to find Fischer. Cobb & Ariadne fall asleep in level 3. They happen to wake in limbo. According to the film's exposition, ANYONE who goes to limbo (it doesn't matter how) would be lost. So, that means that NO MATTER THE CIRCUMSTANCE, returning from limbo HAS TO BE STRAIGHT TO REALITY. That defies what happens with Ariadne & Fischer. Ariadne's link to Fischer gives her the ability to go back a level. And Fischer, although dead and lost, is just RECENTLY dead. And, therefore, his "being revived" by the defibrelator brings him back to level 3. And Cobb? Since his link is causing a dream share to limbo, he FALLS INTO HIS OWN PERSONAL EXPERIENCE limbo when he dies or his link to Fischer's level 3 dreaming body collapses.

Forgive me if I repeated myself in there. I just woke up.

Look, chief, Buddy Christ nailed it, and you're just talking yourself in circles now: why would they have to be hooked up to Fischer to find him in Limbo, but not have to be hooked up to Saito to find him there? It's just amazing how many words you used to seemingly intentionally avoid answering that question. You're playing games because it hurts you so much to admit that you are wrong about something... well, I don't think you have anybody convinced, so you've wasted a lot of your own time and effort.

[Petra_Kalbrain]

Originally Posted by mjbethancourt

Look, chief, Buddy Christ nailed it, and you're just talking yourself in circles now: why would they have to be hooked up to Fischer to find him in Limbo, but not have to be hooked up to Saito to find him there? It's just amazing how many words you used to seemingly intentionally avoid answering that question. You're playing games because it hurts you so much to admit that you are wrong about something... well, I don't think you have anybody convinced, so you've wasted a lot of your own time and effort.

The difference is that Cobb knows that he'll be going to limbo to look for Saito whether he links to him or not. He will die from his wounds or Fischer's link will sever. In either of those cases, Cobb will drop into limbo himself where he knows Saito is. Since Ariadne & Cobb are "going to sleep" they have no idea if they will be going to limbo or just a 4th level of dreamspace. They need that link to Fischer in order to GUARANTEE that they end up in the same place.

I'm not talking in circles. I'm just trying to explain the LACK of logic behind the dream machine only being a sedative regulator. If it just sedates people and the dreamspace is just magically shared amidst them all, they wouldn't be the only ones in the dreams. Random people would keep popping in and out throughout the mission. The entire planet would be sharing dreams all of the time. That machine is far more integral to the dream share than just sedating people. It connects their subconscious' together through the physical means of "transferring data" (for lack of better terminology).

Now that I've been awake for a while, that explanation is much more cohesive.

[Buddy Christ]

Originally Posted by Petra_Kalbrain

The difference is that Cobb knows that he'll be going to limbo to look for Saito whether he links to him or not. He will die from his wounds or Fischer's link will sever. In either of those cases, Cobb will drop into limbo himself where he knows Saito is. Since Ariadne & Cobb are "going to sleep" they have no idea if they will be going to limbo or just a 4th level of dreamspace. They need that link to Fischer in order to GUARANTEE that they end up in the same place.

I'm not talking in circles. I'm just trying to explain the LACK of logic behind the dream machine only being a sedative regulator. If it just sedates people and the dreamspace is just magically shared amidst them all, they wouldn't be the only ones in the dreams. Random people would keep popping in and out throughout the mission. The entire planet would be sharing dreams all of the time. That machine is far more integral to the dream share than just sedating people. It connects their subconscious' together through the physical means of "transferring data" (for lack of better terminology).

Now that I've been awake for a while, that explanation is much more cohesive.

With your theory~ Cobb finds Fischer due to link with machine.
Cobb does not link with machine to Saito yet finds him.

HOW?

[Batman1980]

Originally Posted by Buddy Christ

With your theory~ Cobb finds Fischer due to link with machine.
Cobb does not link with machine to Saito yet finds him.

HOW?

[Show spoiler]Cobb was able to find Saito and Fischer because he had built limbo to what he wanted it to be so he knew where they would be.

[Buddy Christ]

Originally Posted by Gandalf Stormcrow

[Show spoiler]Cobb was able to find Saito and Fischer because he had built limbo to what he wanted it to be so he knew where they would be.

I know that But Petra claims that Cobb and Ariadne HAVE to HAD hooked up to the machine in the hospital to get to Fischer. I watched the scene AGAIN tonight and Cobb puts the machine down, hooks up him and her and that is it. I am confused on why anyone thinks they HAVE to link into Fischer to see him.

Case in pont, no one hooks up to Saito but Cobb (inadvertently) finds him any way

[Petra_Kalbrain]

Originally Posted by Buddy Christ

With your theory~ Cobb finds Fischer due to link with machine.
Cobb does not link with machine to Saito yet finds him.

HOW?

Originally Posted by Gandalf Stormcrow

[Show spoiler]Cobb was able to find Saito and Fischer because he had built limbo to what he wanted it to be so he knew where they would be.

Originally Posted by Buddy Christ

I know that But Petra claims that Cobb and Ariadne HAVE to HAD hooked up to the machine in the hospital to get to Fischer. I watched the scene AGAIN tonight and Cobb puts the machine down, hooks up him and her and that is it. I am confused on why anyone thinks they HAVE to link into Fischer to see him.

Case in pont, no one hooks up to Saito but Cobb (inadvertently) finds him any way

Cobb & Ariadne link to Fischer to enter HIS limbo. Cobb doesn't need to link to Saito to find him because he'll be dropping into limbo himself where Saito already is when he dies... he knows that. Ariadne & Cobb link to Fischer because there is no way to know if just going to sleep in the hospital level will take them to limbo. It's a shot in the dark. They may end up in a 4th level that is just one of their dreams instead of actual limbo. If they don't have that link, there is no way to GUARANTEE that they will end up where Fischer is. It is too much of a wild card. Without the DEATH factor, there is ABSOLUTELY NO GUARANTEE that they will end up with Fischer. AND, on top of that, Cobb would not find himself face down in the ocean before finding Saito. He would walk out of the room in which he confronted Mal, out of the building in which he confronted Mal, walk down the street, and find Saito that way. His "reboot/drop" into limbo implies that he lost his link back to the hospital level and was re-dropped into limbo instead. Had just just fallen asleep and gone to limbo with Ariadne, there would be no need for him to be face down in the ocean when we next see him. He would just be walking around in limbo as if he walked out of the building after his confrontation with Mal.

[mjbethancourt]

There is no "Fischer's Limbo", there is only Limbo, it's the same place for everybody; and Cobb and Ariadne do not go to "level 4" or "Fischer's Limbo" to find Fischer. They are going to Limbo to find him, they know and say they know that they are going to Limbo, and Cobb does not go to a "different" Limbo to find Saito, he STAYS BEHIND in Limbo to find him, after he sends Ariadne back with Fischer; that's what he says he's doing, and that is what he does. Fischer is not linked into the dream machine at the mountain base, he is already in Limbo; Cobb and Ariadne are linked into the machine, which sends them to Limbo. All of this is laid out and explained very clearly and very simply in the movie. It's not as complicated as you are trying to make it out to be with your text-walls. You just missed a simple detail or two, (which shouldn't be such a big deal, I don't know why it kills you so much to admit it), some other people that saw the movie didn't miss those details, and you are wasting your time trying at some exercise of semantic attrition to "prove" you are right, to people who already know you are wrong.

Just go watch the movie again, (or don't), pay more attention, and stop being so adamant that what you missed supercedes what the rest of us didn't miss.

[Blu-Curry]

I read somewhere that Inception was the highest grossing original film of our times, but i can't find it anymore! I thought i saw it on IMDB or Wikipedia... anybody know what i'm talking about? lol

[Foggy]

Originally Posted by Blu-Curry

I read somewhere that Inception was the highest grossing original film of our times, but i can't find it anymore! I thought i saw it on IMDB or Wikipedia... anybody know what i'm talking about? lol

I don't think so, Wikipedia and IMDB are not trustworthy sources

[Petra_Kalbrain]

Originally Posted by mjbethancourt

There is no "Fischer's Limbo", there is only Limbo, it's the same place for everybody; and Cobb and Ariadne do not go to "level 4" or "Fischer's Limbo" to find Fischer. They are going to Limbo to find him, they know and say they know that they are going to Limbo, and Cobb does not go to a "different" Limbo to find Saito, he STAYS BEHIND in Limbo to find him, after he sends Ariadne back with Fischer; that's what he says he's doing, and that is what he does. Fischer is not linked into the dream machine at the mountain base, he is already in Limbo; Cobb and Ariadne are linked into the machine, which sends them to Limbo. All of this is laid out and explained very clearly and very simply in the movie. It's not as complicated as you are trying to make it out to be with your text-walls. You just missed a simple detail or two, (which shouldn't be such a big deal, I don't know why it kills you so much to admit it), some other people that saw the movie didn't miss those details, and you are wasting your time trying at some exercise of semantic attrition to "prove" you are right, to people who already know you are wrong.

Just go watch the movie again, (or don't), pay more attention, and stop being so adamant that what you missed supercedes what the rest of us didn't miss.

I'm not saying that there is a "Fishcer's limbo" or a "Saito's limbo." I know that they are both in the same limbo. Anyone who goes to limbo is in the same place... even Cobb & Ariadne. But, Cobb & Ariadne just going to sleep in the hospital level does not guarantee that they end up in limbo. Sure, they say that they are going to have to go to limbo in order to get Fischer back, but there are only two ways to go about that with certainty... die or link to Fischer. And they don't die to get to him.

I'm trying to make it less complicated and more believable than you are. If dreams are just shared by everyone being asleep and not connected via the workings of the dream machine, how many hundreds of people would be in the dream world with them? Ariadne never had any training to dream share and yet her and Cobb were together in the dream world so he could teach her how things work. She just magically tuned into the same brainwave frequency as Cobb did like finding a radio station? Picking up brainwave frequencies out of thin air?

My main arguement in all of this isn't necessarily that Cobb & Ariadne linked into Fischer to get to limbo, although that is a point of reference for my arguement. My main arguement is that the dream machine is an integral part of allowing everyones psyches to be linked so that they can share the dreams. It's the equivalent of a computer network router. The data between units needs to be regulated through that piece of hardware in order for them to be able to exist and work together within the construct of the network.

[Buddy Christ]

Cobb & Ariadne link to Fischer to enter HIS limbo.


I'm not saying that there is a "Fishcer's limbo"

Petra, both of those quotes are yours.