INCEPTION Review Thread (SPOILERS!!)

[Foggy]

Originally Posted by DeeChizzle

Kalbrain vs MJbethancourt

So far I have MJ winning. Interesting debate you two are having. I'm with MJ, who are we to "establish" what is factual and non factual in this movie? That's what's so great about this movie, the moment that Nolan leaves that top spinning in the end everything and I mean everything in this film is open to questioning and interpretation.

Don't take sides, it's only getting childish

[DeeChizzle]

Originally Posted by Foggy

Don't take sides, it's only getting childish

LOL Why not? As long as it doesn't get out of hand. I'm actually enjoying going back and reading their back and forth debating.

[Diesel]

I haven't read all the posts completely, but let's just make sure it is debating/discussing about the movie and not arguing and personal attacks.

[kefrank]

Originally Posted by Petra_Kalbrain

The only way out of limbo is to kill oneself and that leads to superceding any/all levels kicks and waking in the real world.

In the interest of discussing these plot points civilly, where in the movie is the above rule established? I'm asking honestly, because I don't remember that rule being explained or suggested explicitly. Then again, limbo and its surrounding rules were probably the most hazy thing for me in the movie.

[CYMBOL]

Originally Posted by DeeChizzle

Kalbrain vs MJbethancourt

So far I have MJ winning. Interesting debate you two are having. I'm with MJ, who are we to "establish" what is factual and non factual in this movie? That's what's so great about this movie, the moment that Nolan leaves that top spinning in the end everything and I mean everything in this film is open to questioning and interpretation.

That part was so funny with the crowd I was in.

When he spun it and started walking away and the camera stays on the spinning top - you could feel the crowd leaning collectively forward - waiting for the final reveal - and then, "The End"! The whole crowd went, "AAWWW" - but not in that, "that's ruins everything" - but rather a kind of, "Ah Nolan! Yooouuuu!"

Good stuff.

[Diesel]

Originally Posted by CYMBOL

That part was so funny with the crowd I was in.

When he spun it and started walking away and the camera stays on the spinning top - you could feel the crowd leaning collectively forward - waiting for the final reveal - and then, "The End"! The whole crowd went, "AAWWW" - but not in that, "that's ruins everything" - but rather a kind of, "Ah Nolan! Yooouuuu!"

Good stuff.

At least a handful of people in my theater were




Some guy on the same row as me went, "AW COME ON!!!"

[Batman1980]

Originally Posted by CYMBOL

That part was so funny with the crowd I was in.

When he spun it and started walking away and the camera stays on the spinning top - you could feel the crowd leaning collectively forward - waiting for the final reveal - and then, "The End"! The whole crowd went, "AAWWW" - but not in that, "that's ruins everything" - but rather a kind of, "Ah Nolan! Yooouuuu!"

Good stuff.

I don't think most of the people in my theatre got that because they just blinked and walked out. I think the ending would've been funny if the top had fallen down and then gotten back up and started spinning again on its own.

[Foggy]

Originally Posted by Gandalf Stormcrow

I don't think most of the people in my theatre got that because they just blinked and walked out. I think the ending would've been funny if the top had fallen down and then gotten back up and started spinning again on its own.

I would of laughed at the person who blinked when the words Inception came up and then "OH F***, What was it?"

[mjbethancourt]

Originally Posted by kefrank

In the interest of discussing these plot points civilly, where in the movie is the above rule established? I'm asking honestly, because I don't remember that rule being explained or suggested explicitly. Then again, limbo and its surrounding rules were probably the most hazy thing for me in the movie.

It never was established as a rule. In fact, when they were discussing it during the kidnapping, they said you would eventually wake up, but you will have lost your mind.

As for theories, I do have some that could explain the ending. Mind you, it's only theory, so I'm not going to fall apart if nobody buys it: the reason Fischer and Ariadne are able to follow a "kick" back to the base, is because that space was still "open" to them. It was never asserted that leaving Limbo automatically wakes you up, (and how can it, if they are so heavily sedated?). When Cobb and Mal killed themselves to leave Limbo, it was never said that they entered Limbo by climbing down multiple dream levels, so waking up may have been the only other place for them to go, (and as it stands, Mal believed that they had just gone to another dream... if that weren't at least a possibility, she probably wouldn't have had such a problem); but when Fischer and Ariadne leave Limbo, they are still tied in to the other dream levels, so those levels are alternatives to simply waking up or "bouncing" back to Limbo.

Cobb washing up on the beach before he finds Saito means nothing: it doesn't prove that he didn't just walk out of the building after dealing with Mal. Finding Fischer was easy for him, he knew that the constructs of his subconscious (his kids, Mal) would lead him there. Finding Saito was not so simple. He probably wandered around for a very long time, there is nothing to indicate that he washed up on that beach instantly after dealing with Mal, it could have been decades of Limbo time, (and probably was, considering the condition he found Saito in).

"Beach = reboot" is a debatable inference; and anyway, I speculate that Cobb washing up on Saito's beach is a result of Cobb drowning in the van. The reason Cobb and Saito wake up on the airplane after "killing themselves" out of Limbo, is because those other dream levels were no longer open to them, Cobb and Saito were no longer connected to them because they were "dead" there, (Saito from his wounds, Cobb from drowning; no point in rescuing Cobb from drowning, since drowning would just send him to Limbo, where he was anyway; letting Cobb drown saved him the trouble of needing to follow the kick-chain, and may have actually helped him find Saito faster. Sure, it would have been easier to follow if we had seen Cobb step out of the building, and see a swell of ocean crash in on him and the city, representing his drowning in the van... then again, that image IS depicted on the movie posters). Fischer woke up from Limbo in the Hospital Base rather than the plane, because he was being defibrillated at the Hospital Base... otherwise, he probably would have just woke up on the airplane (or maybe bounced back to Limbo if the sedatives were still in full effect), since he's dead in the dream if he isn't defibrillated. They still needed him back at the Hospital Base to finish the mission. Ariadne also can wake up at the Base because she is not dead there, she's just on a dreamlink machine. But Cobb does not wake up at the Base, because by the time he leaves limbo, he is dead in the dream and can't wake up there, but he can wake up on the plane, because the sedative has abated enough to allow it.

So you see, there isn't only one explanation that makes "100%, in your face, logical sense", and I think my alternative makes far fewer unsubstantiated assumptions. My explanation works within the facts of the film, instead of trying to change or defy the facts to fit a theory.

[mjbethancourt]

Originally Posted by Diesel

At least a handful of people in my theater were




Some guy on the same row as me went, "AW COME ON!!!"

Yeah, I heard a lot of that crap, too.

Guess the artistic device of the spinning top didn't work for everybody. I was tickled by the sybolism, myself. That closing shot, all by itself, speaks volumes for what the whole thing was really about.

[Buddy Christ]

People the rules are laid out to an extent.

1. When in limbo (either from "going deep" or dying DURING HEAVY SEDATION) the way out is to die. Cobb and Mal on the tracks is the only other time we witness this.

2. When you die in HEAVILY SEDATED dream space you go to limbo.

3. If you want to go to limbo voluntarily, just go deep enough that is not constructed. OR die in heavy sedation.

4. In a shared dream (via machine) when someone dies in HEAVY SEDATION they go to limbo. Hence if you are in a shared dream and you want to get to limbo just go deeper than the constructs provided as Cobb and Ariadne did

5. Since Cobb experimented with depths, he only new of getting to limbo from going deep.It was not until Yuseff said that if you die in heavy sedation gets you to limbo did every one learn this.

6. It was not Cobbs idea to chase Fischer but Ariadnes, she started to understand (as a student) what had to be done in the Hospital. Cobb even said they needed to improvise.

7. The rules of getting OUT of limbo have not been made clear. When Ariadne jumps off the building in limbo the shot shows her falling then waking in the hospital then waking in the hotel which tends to make you believe that falling in limbo will get you out. We also never SEE how Cobb and Saito get out, but then again the shot of the gun on the table...Now if all kicks are exhausted and the machines time is up on the plane then yes you would be kicked straight to reality. IMO!

As smart as Cobb was, his student learned what needed to be done, because Cobb was clouded by his need to get closure.

[Buddy Christ]

Originally Posted by mjbethancourt

It never was established as a rule. In fact, when they were discussing it during the kidnapping, they said you would eventually wake up, but you will have lost your mind.

As for theories, I do have some that could explain the ending. Mind you, it's only theory, so I'm not going to fall apart if nobody buys it: the reason Fischer and Ariadne are able to follow a "kick" back to the base, is because that space was still "open" to them. It was never asserted that leaving Limbo automatically wakes you up. When Cobb and Mal killed themselves to leave Limbo, it was never said that they entered Limbo by climbing down multiple dream levels, so waking up may have been the only other place for them to go, (and as it stands, Mal believed that they had just gone to another dream... if that weren't at least a possibility, she probably wouldn't have had such a problem); but when Fischer and Ariadne leave Limbo, they are still tied in to the other dream levels, so those levels are alternatives to simply waking up.

Cobb washing up on the beach before he finds Saito means nothing: it doesn't prove that he didn't just walk out of the building after dealing with Mal. Finding Fischer was easy for him, he knew that the constructs of his subconscious (his kids, Mal) would lead him there. Finding Saito was not so simple. He probably wandered around for a very long time, there is nothing to indicate that he washed up on that beach instantly after dealing with Mal, it could have been decades of Limbo time, (and probably was, considering the condition he found Saito in).

"Beach = reboot" is a debatable inference; and anyway, I speculate that Cobb washing up on Saito's beach is a result of Cobb drowning in the van. The reason Cobb and Saito wake up on the airplane after "killing themselves" out of Limbo, is because those other dream levels were no longer open to them, Cobb and Saito were no longer connected to them because they were "dead" there, (Saito from his wounds, Cobb from drowning; no point in rescuing Cobb from drowning, since drowning would just send him to Limbo, where he was anyway; letting Cobb drown saved him the trouble of needing to follow the kick-chain, and may have actually helped him find Saito faster. Sure, it would have been easier to follow if we had seen Cobb step out of the building, and see a swell of ocean crash in on him and the city, representing his drowning in the van... then again, that image IS depicted on the movie posters). Fischer woke up from Limbo in the Hospital Base rather than the plane, because he was being defibrillated at the Hospital Base... otherwise, he probably would have just woke up on the airplane, since he's dead in the dream if he isn't defibrillated. They still needed him back at the Hospital Base to finish the mission. Ariadne also can wake up at the Base because she is not dead there, she's just on a dreamlink machine. But Cobb does not wake up at the Base, because by the time he leaves limbo, he is dead in the dream and can't wake up there.

So you see, there isn't only one explanation that makes "100%, in your face, logical sense", and I think my alternative makes far fewer unsubstantiated assumptions. My explanation works within the facts of the film, instead of trying to change or defy the facts to fit a theory.

[JLant19]

Originally Posted by Gandalf Stormcrow

I don't think most of the people in my theatre got that because they just blinked and walked out. I think the ending would've been funny if the top had fallen down and then gotten back up and started spinning again on its own.

That just made my day. I pictured it and all.

[kefrank]

Originally Posted by Buddy Christ

7. The rules of getting OUT of limbo have not been made clear. When Ariadne jumps off the building in limbo the shot shows her falling then waking in the hospital then waking in the hotel which tends to make you believe that falling in limbo will get you out. We also never SEE how Cobb and Saito get out, but then again the shot of the gun on the table...Now if all kicks are exhausted and the machines time is up on the plane then yes you would be kicked straight to reality. IMO!

I agree with this and with most of mjbethancourt's lengthy post. It makes sense that dying in limbo would kick you back up to a dream level above, if there still is one. Otherwise dying in limbo would kick you all the way back up to reality. This all seems internally consistent with the events and explicit explanations that we do get in the film.

A couple of additional points (or maybe discrepancies):
-- As I remember it, Cobb did in fact know that dying under heavy sedation would send you to limbo. I thought he was the one who primarily explained it and Yusuf just confirmed it. I remember that because someone else exclaims to Yusuf [paraphrasing], "You knew about this too!?!?"

-- When you die in heavy sedation and go to limbo, I think you also must lose lucidity (your conscious mind then believes that limbo is reality), at least if you've never been to limbo before. Otherwise, all the hand-wringing that everyone expresses about dying under heavy sedation and going to limbo is moot. There would be no risk, since you would know that killing yourself would get you out.

-- I'm a little hazy on exactly what was expressed about what happens to your "real-world" self when you're stuck in limbo. My understanding was, if you're still in limbo when the machine in the real world times out and ends the shared dream (in other words, you missed the kicks), your real-world self is essentially in a vegetative/comatose state. Although you're technically no longer "asleep," your mind is not there. Dying in limbo would then bring you out of that state in the real world, back to full consciousness (though perhaps there may be some residual brain-damage, depending on how much real time passed?). Is this understanding anywhere close to correct?

[mjbethancourt]

Originally Posted by kefrank

-- When you die in heavy sedation and go to limbo, I think you also must lose lucidity (your conscious mind then believes that limbo is reality), at least if you've never been to limbo before. Otherwise, all the hand-wringing that everyone expresses about dying under heavy sedation and going to limbo is moot. There would be no risk, since you would know that killing yourself would get you out.

It sure seems that way. Cobb certainly had to convince Saito of the necessity of coming back.

-- I'm a little hazy on exactly what was expressed about what happens to your "real-world" self when you're stuck in limbo. My understanding was, if you're still in limbo when the machine in the real world times out and ends the shared dream (in other words, you missed the kicks), your real-world self is essentially in a vegetative/comatose state. Although you're technically no longer "asleep," your mind is not there. Dying in limbo would then bring you out of that state in the real world, back to full consciousness (though perhaps there may be some residual brain-damage, depending on how much real time passed?). Is this understanding anywhere close to correct?

Maybe... probably depends a lot on how long your perceived experience of Limbo was. They were down for a 10-hour trip, that's a major factor of their concern. That's probably longer than any "successful" experimenting with Limbo.

[ScarredLungs]

Movies like this are great. Many movies are talked about a lot, but few movies are actually discussed as much as this. Inception Rocks!

[mjbethancourt]

Originally Posted by cvm

Movies like this are great. Many movies are talked about a lot, but few movies are actually discussed as much as this. Inception Rocks!

The controversies and conversations are its greatest success. It's been a long time since a movie was discussed as much as this one, (and I mean outside of the world of internet jabber... here, everything gets chewed to death).

[Porkchop Express]

I finally saw this last night , so I'm a little late to this 100+ page discussion. After reading through a bit of this thread, my thoughts on the movie more or less agree with MJbethancourt ideas.

This has probably been discussed, but at the end, does anyone feel that seeing his children's faces serves as a totem. We never saw them in the dreams.

[ScarredLungs]

Originally Posted by Porkchop Express

I finally saw this last night , so I'm a little late to this 100+ page discussion. After reading through a bit of this thread, my thoughts on the movie more or less agree with MJbethancourt ideas.

This has probably been discussed, but at the end, does anyone feel that seeing his children's faces serves as a totem. We never saw them in the dreams.

I think that he was awake at the end of the movie. As mentioned, he does see his kids faces, which he never sees at any other time in the movie.

Will someone explain the Cobb's wedding ring being a totem to me. I've read a little here and there on it in this thread.

[Foggy]

Originally Posted by cvm

I think that he was awake at the end of the movie. As mentioned, he does see his kids faces, which he never sees at any other time in the movie.

Will someone explain the Cobb's wedding ring being a totem to me. I've read a little here and there on it in this thread.

When he's in the real world his ring is off, but when he's in a dream his ring is on. At the end when he see's his children his ring is off.