INCEPTION Review Thread (SPOILERS!!)

[radagast]

Originally Posted by Josh

That scene is another nod to it all being a dream. Check out this sequence:

1) Saito dies and goes into limbo.
2) Cobb and Ariadne go to limbo together and wash up on shore.
3) They find Mal
4) Ariadne jumps out the window for her "kick" and goes back
5) Cobb says he'll find Saito
6) Cobb washes up on shore and is greeted by an armed guard
7) Cobb meets old Saito

#6 seems to indicate that there is a step lower than limbo. Remember, when they met Mal, that was supposed to be limbo. So when he washes up on shore, he is somewhere else. Somewhere lower than limbo. The rules of dreaming are broken - and we know that oddities are all apart of (drum roll) dreaming! Cobb is in a dream, and thus the "rules" can be broken in order to continue the story. Otherwise, he wouldn't have to wash up in Saito's world - he was already there.

The problem with that is that Cobb washes up on the same shore, once with Ariadne and then by himself. Why would there be two shores to appear in?

Originally Posted by Josh

I watched Inception this past weekend, and after thinking about it, I believed that the entire movie was a dream. There are too many leads pointing to that direction. However, after reading the interview Nolan had with Wired, he said one thing that made me rethink the ending:



To me, this makes the suggestion that it is all a dream, but, the positive emotion of seeing his children wakes him from the dream. That it was the negative emotion of losing his wife that held him in the dream state. So, the end was "reality", but only after Cobb woke up. That is why his dad walked in the room and smiled, because the dream that he had put together to wake up Cobb worked, and he was back.

The top is a red herring. In the beginning of the movie, I remember Cobb puts a gun to his head and spins the top. When it falls, he pulls the gun down. Now, we know that the way to get out of a dream is to die in the dream. Cobb wouldn't commit suicide - he's trying to see his children again. He would only shoot himself if he was in a dream, and so, the top falls in the dream state - it stays up in reality.

This is further reinforced when they show Mal put the top in her safe. The top is laying on its side. Cobb then says he changed it to convince her she was dreaming - he spins the top and closes the door. The top now does the same thing in both reality and in the dream - so it no longer works for Mal and she is further lost to the dream.

There are a couple of things that confused me, however. Why is the "train" scene happening when they are young, rather than old? Cobb said he they grew old together in limbo, but they killed themselve - to get back to reality - at a young age. Was thing just Cobb's mind failing him?

Also, what is the importance of the levels of Cobb's sub-conscious. I didn't see a connection to that story line beyond just showing Cobb had issues.

I feel the exact opposite. I feel there are too many things pointing to Cobb waking up at the end.

1) A split second before the picture cuts out, the totem starts to wobble. It wouldn't do that in a dream.
2) Cobb's wedding ring.
3) Cobb's children are at about 2 years younger EVERYWHERE ELSE except at the end.
4) It was clearly stated by Arthur that Cobb had been in limbo once and had escaped.
5) In limbo, Saito and Cobb are essentially in the same scenario as was Cobb and Ariadne, while in Limbo. It's just that Saito was in a different "place" than where Cobb was confronting Mal. Yet both Cobb and Saito wake up on the jet with projections of everyone else and we are supposed to think they are still in limbo? Doesn't ring true.


You have a point about the train scene. That could just be nothing more than Cobb remembering it with there young faces. Why didn't Mal just use her totem to detemine if she was awake or not? Even insane she must have thought of that.

[radagast]

Originally Posted by MMatt

For all the reality-believers here


Large: http://img132.imageshack.us/img132/6...finalframe.jpg

Wallpaper

1024x768: http://img442.imageshack.us/img442/5...lframewall.jpg

I want a T-shirt with that on it.

[Josh]

Originally Posted by Josh

The top is a red herring. In the beginning of the movie, I remember Cobb puts a gun to his head and spins the top. When it falls, he pulls the gun down. Now, we know that the way to get out of a dream is to die in the dream. Cobb wouldn't commit suicide - he's trying to see his children again. He would only shoot himself if he was in a dream, and so, the top falls in the dream state - it stays up in reality.

I don't know if it was lack of coffee or what, but that doesn't make sense to me anymore. The top falls down, so that is reality (he thinks) and he can't shoot himself to escape. I still think the top is a red herring, but for the other reasons, not this one.

[Q?]

What if Mal is Cobbs kind of a dream totem? He gets rid of the projection of her in the end, can no longer tell the difference between dream and reality?

[Foggy]

Originally Posted by Q!

What if Mal is Cobbs is kind of a dream totem? He gets rid of the projection of her in the end, can no longer tell the difference between dream and reality?

I always thought his wedding ring was a kind of totem

[menaceuk]

Originally Posted by Q!

What if Mal is Cobbs is kind of a dream totem? He gets rid of the projection of her in the end, can no longer tell the difference between dream and reality?

Maybe the whole thing is Inception too Keep Cobb in Limbo with Mal.But the Good emotion of reuniting with his children triumphs over the evil emotion of Guilt and regret

[Josh]

Originally Posted by radagast

The problem with that is that Cobb washes up on the same shore, once with Ariadne and then by himself. Why would there be two shores to appear in?

I feel the exact opposite. I feel there are too many things pointing to Cobb waking up at the end.

1) A split second before the picture cuts out, the totem starts to wobble. It wouldn't do that in a dream.
2) Cobb's wedding ring.
3) Cobb's children are at about 2 years younger EVERYWHERE ELSE except at the end.
4) It was clearly stated by Arthur that Cobb had been in limbo once and had escaped.
5) In limbo, Saito and Cobb are essentially in the same scenario as was Cobb and Ariadne, while in Limbo. It's just that Saito was in a different "place" than where Cobb was confronting Mal. Yet both Cobb and Saito wake up on the jet with projections of everyone else and we are supposed to think they are still in limbo? Doesn't ring true.

You have a point about the train scene. That could just be nothing more than Cobb remembering it with there young faces. Why didn't Mal just use her totem to detemine if she was awake or not? Even insane she must have thought of that.

The effect of washing ashore is the result of entering limbo. If he was already there (with Mal), why would he have to re-enter to meet Saito? He should have just had to find him there already.

I'll admit that the ring is an issue. It is an obvious materialization of his emotional tie to his wife. However, it is possible that it too is a red herring - only making appearances when Mal does. Its difficult because of the way Nolan framed the shots - we never really see his left hand in every scene. I'm going through some screenshots now trying to find a lapse, but its hard to even see his hand most of time.

The children, I will agree are real at the very end. Though, I'm not sure they are the same children when he looks at them immediately after spinning the top (spin top, shot of children, back to Cobb, and then back to children). I need to watch it again.

[Petra_Kalbrain]

Originally Posted by Josh

I watched Inception this past weekend, and after thinking about it, I believed that the entire movie was a dream. There are too many leads pointing to that direction. However, after reading the interview Nolan had with Wired, he said one thing that made me rethink the ending:



To me, this makes the suggestion that it is all a dream, but, the positive emotion of seeing his children wakes him from the dream. That it was the negative emotion of losing his wife that held him in the dream state. So, the end was "reality", but only after Cobb woke up. That is why his dad walked in the room and smiled, because the dream that he had put together to wake up Cobb worked, and he was back.

The top is a red herring. In the beginning of the movie, I remember Cobb puts a gun to his head and spins the top. When it falls, he pulls the gun down. Now, we know that the way to get out of a dream is to die in the dream. Cobb wouldn't commit suicide - he's trying to see his children again. He would only shoot himself if he was in a dream, and so, the top falls in the dream state - it stays up in reality.

This is further reinforced when they show Mal put the top in her safe. The top is laying on its side. Cobb then says he changed it to convince her she was dreaming - he spins the top and closes the door. The top now does the same thing in both reality and in the dream - so it no longer works for Mal and she is further lost to the dream.

There are a couple of things that confused me, however. Why is the "train" scene happening when they are young, rather than old? Cobb said he they grew old together in limbo, but they killed themselve - to get back to reality - at a young age. Was thing just Cobb's mind failing him?

Also, what is the importance of the levels of Cobb's sub-conscious. I didn't see a connection to that story line beyond just showing Cobb had issues.

Everything you stated above makes absolutely no sense based on anything that I perceived from all 4 of my viewings of the film. Not even close to be honest. In the end it is not a dream. Cobb is definitely awake. People involved with the production have attested to that. The top falls over in the waking world and remains in a state of spin in the dream state.

Originally Posted by menaceuk

I have a question about this film.

How did Cobb and saito get back ? Having the Gun in the room with them implies they used that but it was said they couldn't do that because they were so heavily sedated and they would end up in Limbo.

Or is it the fact they were already in Limbo means they could just Kill themselves and get back. That way seems a little convenient to me though.

It is shown by example that so long as one accepts the fact that one is dreaming, one can escape limbo DIRECTLY TO THE REAL WAKING WORLD via "dream state death." Cobb and Mal kill themselves on the train tracks and wake in their living room. Since they had accepted the dream state, they woke up. Had either of them not believed that they were dreaming, they'd just wash-up in limbo again.

Originally Posted by menaceuk

I am Curious though, Is Limbo a singular place or does everybody have a limbo and Killing yourself in your Limbo transfers you to the next Mind in Limbo ?


Maybe he Jumped from the Building and Killed himself to get in to Saito's Dream/Limbo .


Or maybe i am simply reaching.

Movie analysis and Interpretation isn't something i am terribly good at.Sure that is obvious

Ok. This is where things can be a littlbe bit confusing. Many people have been confused about the concept of limbo. The trick to understanding limbo is this: Limbo is vast unconstructed dream space. Along the levels of dreaming they establish in order to achieve their goal, we constantly hear about who's dream they are in. Yussuf in the van level. Arthur in the hotel level. Eames in the hospital/military bunker level. Limbo has no dreamer associated with it. That space is so deep that everyone shares it equally at a much deeper state of mind. Therefore, it belongs to everyone's subconscious. And, it only really has form if someone sharing the dream has been there before. Hence, when Saito, Cobb, Ariadne, and Fischer go there, it is an unkept reflection of Cobb and Mal's environment from their previous stay within their own shared subconscious dream space.

As for Cobb getting to Saito, I have two theories on that. One of which would have made a lot more sense if Nolan had included one small detail. But, I'll leave that one alone since it has caused much heated debate with many in this thread already. The most likely theory is that he simply stubles out of the building and looks for Saito, ending up in the ocean somehow where the guard finds him. Remember that when Ariadne and Cobb follow Fischer and Mal after she kills him in the hospital/military bunker level, they are going to limbo where Saito has already been dwelling for a few minutes (which equates to decades in the dream time transition). So, they are already in the same dream space, but just in different parts of the "city."

[Petra_Kalbrain]

Originally Posted by Josh

I don't know if it was lack of coffee or what, but that doesn't make sense to me anymore. The top falls down, so that is reality (he thinks) and he can't shoot himself to escape. I still think the top is a red herring, but for the other reasons, not this one.

Originally Posted by menaceuk

Maybe the whole thing is Inception too Keep Cobb in Limbo with Mal.But the Good emotion of reuniting with his children triumphs over the evil emotion of Guilt and regret

I stated this earlier in the thread, but you may have missed it. So, I'll repeat myself.

To be honest, I didn't/don't care if he's awake or dreaming at the end of the film. The way Nolan directed and presented every frame after Cobb denies his guilt (the projection of his wife) and lets it die while in limbo implies to me that Nolan's film is not about a man's journey to get back to his kids. To me, the film is a cleverly disguised character study about a man conquering his feelings of inadequacy and guilt. Once that goal is achieved, the story is complete. There is no need to show anything beyond him and his team "waking" in the plane. Nolan just put the rest in to appease the "average moviegoer." But, in doing so, he also had to add the ambigously spinning/wavering top in order to reinforce his notion that the state of being in which Cobb is existing at the time doesn't matter. Regardless of whether Cobb is dreaming or not, he can continue his existence as a happy man without guilt trying to control his every moment.

[menaceuk]

Originally Posted by Petra_Kalbrain

It is shown by example that so long as one accepts the fact that one is dreaming, one can escape limbo DIRECTLY TO THE REAL WAKING WORLD via "dream state death." Cobb and Mal kill themselves on the train tracks and wake in their living room. Since they had accepted the dream state, they woke up. Had either of them not believed that they were dreaming, they'd just wash-up in limbo again.

But how does that make the heavy sedation Irrelevant ? which is the basic form of my question.

If they can't escape that way from one of the other minds why can they do it in Limbo.

The only thing that pops straight in to my head is this .

Since Limbo is a collective and shared by all it isn't bound by the same rules as a normal dream state.

[menaceuk]

Originally Posted by Petra_Kalbrain

I stated this earlier in the thread, but you may have missed it. So, I'll repeat myself.

To be honest, I didn't/don't care if he's awake or dreaming at the end of the film. The way Nolan directed and presented every frame after Cobb denies his guilt (the projection of his wife) and lets it die while in limbo implies to me that Nolan's film is not about a man's journey to get back to his kids. To me, the film is a cleverly disguised character study about a man conquering his feelings of inadequacy and guilt. Once that goal is achieved, the story is complete. There is no need to show anything beyond him and his team "waking" in the plane. Nolan just put the rest in to appease the "average moviegoer." But, in doing so, he also had to add the ambigously spinning/wavering top in order to reinforce his notion that the state of being in which Cobb is existing at the time doesn't matter. Regardless of whether Cobb is dreaming or not, he can continue his existence as a happy man without guilt trying to control his every moment.

That is an interesting take on it and one I like.

I will have to try and keep this in mind the next time I watch it.

[Petra_Kalbrain]

Originally Posted by menaceuk

But how does that make the heavy sedation Irrelevant ? which is the basic form of my question.

If they can't escape that way from one of the other minds why can they do it in Limbo.

The only thing that pops straight in to my head is this .

Since Limbo is a collective and shared by all it isn't bound by the same rules as a normal dream state.

It makes heavy sedation irrelevant because of the nature of limbo. Remember that limbo is the deepest level of dream state that one can attain. So, dying in any other dream level under that sedation loses the "dream deceased" into the unconstructed dream space. Once there, there is nowhere else to go but to reality. The trick is acknowledging that they are dreaming before "ending the dream." Otherwise, their delusional minds will keep them in limbo. The heavy sedation doesn't factor in and keep rebooting them into limbo because it's a completely different section of the brain that handles that state of being. And, that part of the brain is not what the sedation is having an effect on.

[Josh]

Originally Posted by Petra_Kalbrain

Everything you stated above makes absolutely no sense based on anything that I perceived from all 4 of my viewings of the film. Not even close to be honest. In the end it is not a dream. Cobb is definitely awake. People involved with the production have attested to that. The top falls over in the waking world and remains in a state of spin in the dream state.

I don't disagree that at the very end, he is awake. I just don't know how much of the rest of the film is based in "the real world". Mal (who is really just Cobb's voice) continuously tries to convince Cobb that he is in a dream state and needs to wake up. Some of the dialog also points to the idea of Cobb needing to wake up.

Why is Cobb the only person's sub-conscience who invades the dreamscape? Everyone else likely has issues, but they never come up - or at least not as predominantly as Cobb's. Mal (and even that train) keep showing up even though he isn't the architect. That implies that Cobb also has a "defense mechnism", except his was implanted by his dad (as Mal) to stop his guilt over the loss of his wife?

I still have issue with the personal safe. Mal puts the top in the safe laying down, implying that in the dream world, the top will fall. Cobb changes that to make it keep spinning in the dream world. Do we ever see Mal spin the top before he changes it?

Maybe what we believe is reality, is reality and I'm looking too hard for the exception. Mal is meant to through the viewer (and Cobb) off the trail, but that seems sort of too simple. It would be telling the audience, "what you think is true, is true, and there is no reason to think differently". Why include that at all? No need to reinforce the obvious.

[Batman1980]

The only real knock I have on this movie is

[Show spoiler]why doesn't Mal show up the first time Ariadne and Cobb dream together?

[Blu-Benny]

Originally Posted by Gandalf Stormcrow

The only real knock I have on this movie is

[Show spoiler]why doesn't Mal show up the first time Ariadne and Cobb dream together?

weren't they in her subconcious then??

[menaceuk]

Originally Posted by Gandalf Stormcrow

The only real knock I have on this movie is

[Show spoiler]why doesn't Mal show up the first time Ariadne and Cobb dream together?

Because Ariadne changed too much and Cobb's Sub concious ( where Mal originates) is aware too Ariadne's presence/Influences.

[Petra_Kalbrain]

Originally Posted by Josh

I don't disagree that at the very end, he is awake. I just don't know how much of the rest of the film is based in "the real world". Mal (who is really just Cobb's voice) continuously tries to convince Cobb that he is in a dream state and needs to wake up. Some of the dialog also points to the idea of Cobb needing to wake up.

Why is Cobb the only person's sub-conscience who invades the dreamscape? Everyone else likely has issues, but they never come up - or at least not as predominantly as Cobb's. Mal (and even that train) keep showing up even though he isn't the architect. That implies that Cobb also has a "defense mechnism", except his was implanted by his dad (as Mal) to stop his guilt over the loss of his wife?

I still have issue with the personal safe. Mal puts the top in the safe laying down, implying that in the dream world, the top will fall. Cobb changes that to make it keep spinning in the dream world. Do we ever see Mal spin the top before he changes it?

Maybe what we believe is reality, is reality and I'm looking too hard for the exception. Mal is meant to through the viewer (and Cobb) off the trail, but that seems sort of too simple. It would be telling the audience, "what you think is true, is true, and there is no reason to think differently". Why include that at all? No need to reinforce the obvious.

The top will not fall in the dream world though. There is a HUGE difference between the top falling once it is spun and placing the top on a surface on its side without spinning it. She purposely hid the top away so that she could allow herself to believe that limbo was her reality because she realized that they were stuck there indefinitely. They had no idea how to escape limbo at the time.

As for Cobb's subconscious constantly appearing and nobody elses? That's a pretty obvious one. Cobb has some serious psychological issues that he is dealing with surrounding the death of his wife. That type of trauma is scarring to the point of requiring major professional help. Certainly the other team members have personal issues, but none of them would be nearly anywhere as potent, powerful, and deeply rooted as Cobb's.

[Petra_Kalbrain]

Originally Posted by Gandalf Stormcrow

The only real knock I have on this movie is

[Show spoiler]why doesn't Mal show up the first time Ariadne and Cobb dream together?

Don't you mean, "Why DOES Mal show up the first time...?"

Because the space that Ariadne constructed was a real place where Cobb and his wife had a real experience. Hence why he gets so worked up. "Never use real places to construct the space!" The environment brought the memories of his wife to the surface, exposing the dream space to his feelings of guilt... thus, manifesting one of the projections as his wife (a representation of his issues).

[JW13]

Originally Posted by Josh

I still have issue with the personal safe. Mal puts the top in the safe laying down, implying that in the dream world, the top will fall. Cobb changes that to make it keep spinning in the dream world. Do we ever see Mal spin the top before he changes it?

i dont think that's the case.. she laid it down to convince herself that she wasnt dreaming, if she spun it she would have known it was a dream.

[Josh]

Originally Posted by Petra_Kalbrain

The top will not fall in the dream world though. There is a HUGE difference between the top falling once it is spun and placing the top on a surface on its side without spinning it. She purposely hid the top away so that she could allow herself to believe that limbo was her reality because she realized that they were stuck there indefinitely. They had no idea how to escape limbo at the time.

But if there is no difference between placing a top on its side, and the top falling after it has been spun, then why would Cobb have to spin the top in her safe? The act of spinning the top must have done something, and if so, then the lack of spinning must have also had an affect. What affect did the lack of spinning (laying the top on its side) have?