HDMI 2.1: HDR Dynamic Metadata

[bruceames]

Originally Posted by bootman

No my point to those asking should I wait to future proof is a flawed question.
Technology is always moving so buy when you need it vs waiting until it has everything you THINK you need.

Exactly my point of view as well.

[2pacalypsenow]

Man Im really getting tired of this whole UHD era, I mean Is any TV safe from not being 100% compatible in the next year or 2?

[kristoffer]

Guess I should wait till to 2017 then..

[Penton-Man]

Originally Posted by K i r a

+1.

Here I thought BT.2020 was the highest color space, and now I'm reading about SMPTE ST.2094? Is that right?

What the actual ****?

2094 is a new standard suite of documents which is a work in progress, the overall project being about 50% complete. Specifically, ST 2094-10 Application #1, which just fairly recently was posted for pre-FCD ballot review and discussed by the compression (HEVC) engineers as to exactly how to implement it as a new SEI message in order to carry der metadata.

In a nutshell, SMPTE 2094 is being developed to provide some display adaptation metadata. The nominal purpose of SMPTE 2094 is to enable adaptation of a video signal to a smaller color volume (e.g., lower dynamic range).

You desire a greater color volume than that of BT. 2020, then….




or, subtracting out all the overriding triangles seen above ^…..

[jibucha]

HDR10 :: required across the board (basic standard)
Dolby Vision :: inclusive of HDR10 (actually, the 'premium level')
Dolby Vision :: as it becomes understood (premium performance), it will be 'appreciated' and not ignored
Dolby Vision :: it will be supported (content - players - displays), especially by myself (i cannot wait for owning the 'complete chain')
HDR10 :: 'baseline HDR' - 'baby upgrade' (Dolby Vision is the 'huge upgrade' & 'the future')

Originally Posted by bruceames.

Well I read something different above, that DV doesn't need it. Even if they do, a lot of horn blowing over nothing. Most owners already know that their TV will never support Dolby Vision. Heck, even the players coming out don't support it, nor the discs so far released. We may never see DV, and if we do then it's just another upgrade to look forward. For those who want to wait for a 'maybe' upgrade, be my guest, but for me life's too short for that and HDR10 is already a huge upgrade as it is. I'll buy some Blu-ray titles that I don't think will ever see the light of day on UHD, but for the rest it's UHD from here on out.

[bruceames]

Originally Posted by jibucha

HDR10 :: required across the board (basic standard)
Dolby Vision :: inclusive of HDR10 (actually, the 'premium level')
Dolby Vision :: as it becomes understood (premium performance), it will be 'appreciated' and not ignored
Dolby Vision :: it will be supported (content - players - displays), especially by myself (i cannot wait for owning the 'complete chain')
HDR10 :: 'baseline HDR' - 'baby upgrade' (Dolby Vision is the 'huge upgrade' & 'the future')

The definitive tone of your post leads me to assume you've seen Dolby Vision, right?

[jibucha]

yes :: and a lot more displays; forthcoming 2016 (Q3 & Q4)

Vizio Reference Series; last year :: so far, nothing comes close

it's truly remarkable :: you have to see it to 'truly understand HDR' - at this point in time

it's not my intent to criticize HDR10 or other displays ('UltraHD Premium'); it's just that they are not at this level at this time

i guess that the 'bottom line' is buy what you 'like' just make certain that it has HDMI 2.0a inputs (necessary for 4K HDR UltraHD Blu-ray) & as importantly, meets the UHD Alliance 'UltraHD Premium' standards (UHD Alliance Certified)

the information i include is simply for 'perspective and guidance'; no more - no agenda

regarding the Vizio Reference Series; unfortunately 'very difficult to have opportunities to see' (limited to custom installation businesses - some Best Buy Magnolia that have an custom installation dept)

Originally Posted by bruceames.

The definitive tone of your post leads me to assume you've seen Dolby Vision, right?

[bruceames]

Have you watched UHD BD movies at home in HDR? If you think it's a 'baby upgrade', then something isn't right. I watched Smurfs 2 with my granddaughter last night and was just blown away with this HDR10 that you call a baby upgrade. It was an amazing experience, the best PQ I've ever seen. It's a really big upgrade to me, sorry to disagree with you. At the same time I'll look forward to owning movies with the dynamic HDR, upgrades are always nice.

BTW, don't know what DV videos clips you've seen, but I know that the before/after clips are very exaggerated (they dumb down the 'before' to make the difference look more than it really is).

[jibucha]

'baby upgrade' :: misleading perhaps; 'the intended meaning' was the contrast of HDR10 and Dolby Vision - that the difference between the two is 'quite a bit' - certainly, both would be 'highly appreciated' by anyone - my apology for not clarifying further; just a matter of limited time - again, it is not my intent to criticize any of the HDR formats (after all, they are HDR and it is an significant improvement; just a matter of 'how much improvement' between the various implementations, and more importantly, how much a particular person 'appreciates'

HDR :: HDR10 is the 'basic experience' HDR and Dolby Vision is the 'premium experience' HDR - regardless whether this difference is 'appreciated' or not, it does exist and hopefully will be something without dispute - as time goes on and we all become more familiar with the different HDR formats and their respective differences, including i am hopeful, that there is not a lack of understanding and agreement - regardless, 'any' HDR is 'outstanding'; quite obvious, as you indicated

video clips :: the clips that i have seen are not 'exaggerated' or in any way misleading; to the contrary; especially the Vizio Reference Series, which was 'unusually accurate and comparative' due to the professionalism of the demonstration

disagree? :: i do not think that we disagree, just a miscommunication on my part; communicating something that is new and not widely experienced at this point in time, has it's 'learning curve' both 'perception' and 'words' - to be clear, i expect anyone experiencing HDR, whether in a retail environment or at home, to immediately appreciate it (question :: did you have a different perception when purchasing at a store with what you experienced at home? :: just curious)

at home :: absolutely not :: i am waiting for the 'right' Dolby Vision display (primarily, has to have HDMI 2.0a, which none currently do, without which 4K HDR UltraHD Blu-ray will not pass through the 'HDR') - and, of course, a supporting 4K HDR UltraHD Blu-ray player (none announced to date that i am aware of, but while anxious to acquire one, i will patiently wait for one to become available) - in the interim, i will begin acquiring content (Dolby Vision) as they become available (of course, movies or television that i like) - regardless, back to your point; what i have not seen at home, is without question (for myself) what i will see at home; it would surprise me if their were any difference (if any, it would simply look even better)

Vizio Reference Series :: no HDMI 2.0a support :: without this input capability, it will not work for me; i do not watch any streaming content - Vizio may or may not be able to have an firmware upgrade solution; currently i have no idea (Vizio may or may not have one possible, otherwise it will have to be a new model later) - regardless, currently, this is the 'reference standard, both for a display and for Dolby Vision - if it had HDMI 2.0a, i would have already purchased, without delay

Originally Posted by bruceames.

Have you watched UHD BD movies at home in HDR? If you think it's a 'baby upgrade', then something isn't right. I watched Smurfs 2 with my granddaughter last night and was just blown away with this HDR10 that you call a baby upgrade. It was an amazing experience, the best PQ I've ever seen. It's a really big upgrade to me, sorry to disagree with you. At the same time I'll look forward to owning movies with the dynamic HDR, upgrades are always nice.

BTW, don't know what DV videos clips you've seen, but I know that the before/after clips are very exaggerated (they dumb down the 'before' to make the difference look more than it really is).

[bootman]

Originally Posted by kristoffer

Guess I should wait till to 2017 then..

And if HDMI 3.0 is announced in 2017?

if you need a set now, buy what you can afford now.

[JoeDeM]

Originally Posted by jibucha

'baby upgrade' :: misleading perhaps; 'the intended meaning' was the contrast of HDR10 and Dolby Vision - that the difference between the two is 'quite a bit' - certainly, both would be 'highly appreciated' by anyone - my apology for not clarifying further; just a matter of limited time - again, it is not my intent to criticize any of the HDR formats (after all, they are HDR and it is an significant improvement; just a matter of 'how much improvement' between the various implementations, and more importantly, how much a particular person 'appreciates'

HDR :: HDR10 is the 'basic experience' HDR and Dolby Vision is the 'premium experience' HDR - regardless whether this difference is 'appreciated' or not, it does exist and hopefully will be something without dispute - as time goes on and we all become more familiar with the different HDR formats and their respective differences, including i am hopeful, that there is not a lack of understanding and agreement - regardless, 'any' HDR is 'outstanding'; quite obvious, as you indicated

video clips :: the clips that i have seen are not 'exaggerated' or in any way misleading; to the contrary; especially the Vizio Reference Series, which was 'unusually accurate and comparative' due to the professionalism of the demonstration

disagree? :: i do not think that we disagree, just a miscommunication on my part; communicating something that is new and not widely experienced at this point in time, has it's 'learning curve' both 'perception' and 'words' - to be clear, i expect anyone experiencing HDR, whether in a retail environment or at home, to immediately appreciate it (question :: did you have a different perception when purchasing at a store with what you experienced at home? :: just curious)

at home :: absolutely not :: i am waiting for the 'right' Dolby Vision display (primarily, has to have HDMI 2.0a, which none currently do, without which 4K HDR UltraHD Blu-ray will not pass through the 'HDR') - and, of course, a supporting 4K HDR UltraHD Blu-ray player (none announced to date that i am aware of, but while anxious to acquire one, i will patiently wait for one to become available) - in the interim, i will begin acquiring content (Dolby Vision) as they become available (of course, movies or television that i like) - regardless, back to your point; what i have not seen at home, is without question (for myself) what i will see at home; it would surprise me if their were any difference (if any, it would simply look even better)

Vizio Reference Series :: no HDMI 2.0a support :: without this input capability, it will not work for me; i do not watch any streaming content - Vizio may or may not be able to have an firmware upgrade solution; currently i have no idea (Vizio may or may not have one possible, otherwise it will have to be a new model later) - regardless, currently, this is the 'reference standard, both for a display and for Dolby Vision - if it had HDMI 2.0a, i would have already purchased, without delay

HDMI 2.0a was enabled in firmware on most 2015 Samsung displays, as well as some Sony displays, perhaps you mean HDMI 2.1 dynamic HDR, which no current display supports. There are only a few 2016 displays that are Dolby Vision certified, and they are all upper tier displays

[jibucha]

no :: i meant HDMI 2.0a :: this is what is required, not HDMI 2.1 or HDMI 3.0 or whatever is forthcoming (by required, i am referring to 4K HDR UltraHD Blu-ray)

yes :: Samsung 2015 displays are 'upgraded', however ask Samsung what the 'maximum light output - (nits)' is; at this moment i do not know, does anyone?

Samsung 2015 & 2016 :: the 2015 displays are 'edge lighting' hardly ideal for HDR; perhaps Samsung agrees (rumor is that 'for this very reason' that the 2016 models will be 'back lighting') - (zones that allow for the HDR performance to be 'controlled' effectively, which is not possible with edge lighting (for example: Man of Steel, in dark scenes, and an 'ultra bright' explosion, at 1000-nits; now that is something to experience, leaving the dark scenes dark and the contrasting white areas, neither affecting the other - quite remarkable )

Sony :: i have no idea (2015 or 2016) displays regarding their 'lighting' specifics; does anyone here (actually, i would like to know) - (great company, but confusing) - (meaning how many zones & how bright in nits)

Vizio :: while the Reference Series is the definitive display currently; it's not 2.0a compliant, which is a serious issue (were it HDMI 2.0a compliant; i would already own it - i watch optical disc content; absolutely no streaming) - (picture quality matters and has a direct relationship on enjoyment of movies and television; at least for me)

Vizio :: update :: 3/22/16 :: Vizio has announced availability of the (2016) P-Series :: pricing is as follows:
link :: http://www.vizio.com/p-series
link :: http://www.vizio.com/tvs.html?technology=840
note :: all models are - 126/128 zone, 600 nits, Dolby Vision - HDR-10 (90-days), HDMI 2.0a, Tablet remote

50" :: Model #P50-C1 :: $999.99 :: 120Hz - (panel type VA)
55" :: Model #P55-C1 :: $1299.99 :: 240Hz - (panel type IPS)
65" :: Model #P65-C1 :: $1999.99 :: 240Hz - (panel type VA)
75" :: Model #P75-C1 :: $3799.99 :: 240Hz - (panel type VA)

Dolby Vision :: displays :: yes, it's premium performance and a 'higher pricing, however, TCL and Phillips, will be releasing this year, definitely 'highly affordable' and not 'low grade', and for those liking OLED, 'all' LG OLED displays forthcoming, will be 'Dolby Vision' (this information included for insight into the quality of Dolby Vision and the high performance OLED designs - obviously, they go 'hand-and-hand')

note :: i am aware of the 'firmware upgrades' of Samsung & Sony (possible others are forthcoming), just keep in mind that these are not UHD Alliance Certified and were not 'designed for HDR (were they? - perspective?), however 2016 displays properly supported were specifically designed for HDR (what do you think?) as the standards are now 'clearer & implemented more consistently'; still evolving though

display lighting (LCD) :: important; especially to HDR :: how many 'nits' and how many 'zones' - (the current baseline is: 300+zones and 800+nits light output) - - - (2017 :: could bring 1000+zones & 4,000+nits? - lets see what actually happens in a year)

Originally Posted by JoeDeM

HDMI 2.0a was enabled in firmware on most 2015 Samsung displays, as well as some Sony displays, perhaps you mean HDMI 2.1 dynamic HDR, which no current display supports. There are only a few 2016 displays that are Dolby Vision certified, and they are all upper tier displays

[KubrickKurasawa]

Originally Posted by bootman

No my point to those asking should I wait to future proof is a flawed question.
Technology is always moving so buy when you need it vs waiting until it has everything you THINK you need.

Fantastic point!

[aaronwt2065]

Originally Posted by jibucha

no :: i meant HDMI 2.0a :: this is what is required, not HDMI 2.1 or HDMI 3.0 or whatever is forthcoming (by required, i am referring to 4K HDR UltraHD Blu-ray)

yes :: Samsung 2015 displays are 'upgraded', however ask Samsung what the 'maximum light output - (nits)' is; at this moment i do not know, does anyone?

Samsung 2015 & 2016 :: the 2015 displays are 'edge lighting' hardly ideal for HDR; perhaps Samsung agrees (rumor is that 'for this very reason' that the 2016 models will be 'back lighting') - (zones that allow for the HDR performance to be 'controlled' effectively, which is not possible with edge lighting (for example: Man of Steel, in dark scenes, and an 'ultra bright' explosion, at 1000-nits; now that is something to experience, leaving the dark scenes dark and the contrasting white areas, neither affecting the other - quite remarkable )

Sony :: i have no idea (2015 or 2016) displays regarding their 'lighting' specifics; does anyone here (actually, i would like to know) - (great company, but confusing) - (meaning how many zones & how bright in nits)

Vizio :: while the Reference Series is the definitive display currently; it's not 2.0a compliant, which is a serious issue (were it HDMI 2.0a compliant; i would already own it - i watch optical disc content; absolutely no streaming) - (picture quality matters and has a direct relationship on enjoyment of movies and television; at least for me)

Dolby Vision :: displays :: yes, it's premium performance and a 'higher pricing, however, TCL and Phillips, will be releasing this year, definitely 'highly affordable' and not 'low grade', and for those liking OLED, 'all' LG OLED displays forthcoming, will be 'Dolby Vision' (this information included for insight into the quality of Dolby Vision and the high performance OLED designs - obviously, they go 'hand-and-hand')

note :: i am aware of the 'firmware upgrades' of Samsung & Sony (possible others are forthcoming), just keep in mind that these are not UHD Alliance Certified and were not 'designed for HDR (were they? - perspective?), however 2016 displays properly supported were specifically designed for HDR (what do you think?) as the standards are now 'clearer & implemented more consistently'; still evolving though

display lighting :: important; especially to HDR :: how many 'nits' and how many 'zones' - (the current baseline is: 300+zones and 800+nits light output) - - - (2017 :: could bring 1000+zones & 4,000+nits? - lets see what actually happens in a year)

The 2016 Samsung sets are still Edge lit. That doesn't stop all the 2016 SUHD Samsung sets from getting the UHD Premium certification.(they all have it)
For the Premium UHD certification it must have
"Minimum brightness and contrast ratios: This is probably the most interesting one, as it's great for consumers and shows the different players here at work. There are two possible minimum specs. A minimum brightness of 1,000 nits, along with a black level of a maximum of 0.05 nits (20,000:1 contrast ratio), or a minimum brightness of 540 nits, along with a black level of a maximum of 0.0005 (1,080,000:1)."

http://www.cnet.com/news/what-is-uhd...ium-certified/

http://www.engadget.com/2016/01/04/u...remium-4k-tvs/

[jibucha]

clarification? :: Ultra HD Premium Certification :: the two 'different specifications' are simply, inclusive 'differentiator' regarding the two prevalent display technologies; LCD & OLED - i am only mentioning this as this information might not be 'well-known'

Originally Posted by aaronwt2065

For the Premium UHD certification it must have
"Minimum brightness and contrast ratios: This is probably the most interesting one, as it's great for consumers and shows the different players here at work. There are two possible minimum specs. A minimum brightness of 1,000 nits, along with a black level of a maximum of 0.05 nits (20,000:1 contrast ratio), or a minimum brightness of 540 nits, along with a black level of a maximum of 0.0005 (1,080,000:1)."

http://www.cnet.com/news/what-is-uhd...ium-certified/

http://www.engadget.com/2016/01/04/u...remium-4k-tvs/

[puddy77]

Originally Posted by MisterXDTV

This applies to both Philips and Dolby Vision HDR, dynamic metadata is not supported (yet) by HDR-10

https://kws.smpte.org/kws/public/pro...project_id=294

Originally Posted by DanBa

An HDMI 2.0a port is required to accept the static metadata of an HDR10 signal, but HDMI 1.4 is sufficient for Dolby Vision, which embeds its dynamic metadata in the signal itself.

"We had anticipated the challenge of getting high dynamic range (HDR) and HDR metadata over HDMI interfaces. So what we did was develop our own technology that tunnels all the way through HDMI interfaces back to version 1.4, including the signaling and the metadata. So for televisions that have HDMI inputs and present Dolby Vision signals, as a requirement from us, the HDMI inputs have to support Dolby Vision in addition to the on-board OTT apps that support Dolby Vision and in order to make that work we developed in-band signaling as well as the ability to send 12-bit video over what is effectively an 8-bit interface. All this is implemented in televisions and storage devices that support Dolby Vision."
http://hdguru.com/dolby-vision-tries...t-bar-for-hdr/

So just to be clear, HDMI 2.1 is only necessary for Philips' implementation of dynamic metadata on their own version of HDR, but Dolby Vision only requires 1.4 and up?

I just saw this post on AVS Forum:

I have confirmed that the new P-Series will accept Dolby Vision via HDMI or the appropriate apps; it works either way.

The new Vizio P-Series has HDMI 2.0a inputs. And it accepts DV over HDMI. So do we have nothing to worry about if all we want is DV compatibility in the future?

[JoeDeM]

Originally Posted by puddy77

The new Vizio P-Series has HDMI 2.0a inputs. And it accepts DV over HDMI. So do we have nothing to worry about if all we want is DV compatibility in the future?

But your TV and Player must have the a Dolby Vision enabled chip set, Samsung and Sony chose not to support it, and therefore don't have the required chip set.

[Ruined]

HDMI 2.1 is for color accuracy and consistency, not compatibility

[bruceames]

Originally Posted by JoeDeM

But your TV and Player must have the a Dolby Vision enabled chip set, Samsung and Sony chose not to support it, and therefore don't have the required chip set.

Yeah, I'm married to HDR10 for the foreseeable future.

I am not giving up my Sony for a Vizio brand just to get DV capability that might matter or not. And Sony and Samsung seem not to care about DV.

[JoeDeM]

Originally Posted by Ruined

HDMI 2.1 is for color accuracy and consistency, not compatibility

I agree, the misunderstanding is that some people think you need 2.1 for Dolby Vision, when all you need is the chip set with the current HDMI implementation, 2.1 is to fix the inadequacy of HDR10 by providing dynamic meta data like DV already has.

Originally Posted by bruceames.

Yeah, I'm married to HDR10 for the foreseeable future.

I am not giving up my Sony for a Vizio brand just to get DV capability that might matter or not. And Sony and Samsung seem not to care about DV.

I don't blame you, I wouldn't ether if I could get a 940C at a good price.