HDR Discussion Thread

[Penton-Man]

Originally Posted by Staying Salty

http://www.fiercecable.com/broadcast...pte-st-2094-10

One of the new use cases for Dolby Vision that the company is testing is live HDR broadcast, for which companies typically look toward HLG. But Dolby is arguing that Dolby Vision can be used for live broadcast.

For that purpose, Dolby now has developed an engine capable of generating Dolby Vision dynamic metadata in real-time, and the company working with its partners on integrating it. Dolby has been taking live broadcast truck workflows and adding a 10-bit PQ signal at the output, which then has the dynamic metadata generating for it and is encoded as Dolby Vision into a bitstream which is sent either through an IP network, satellite and terrestrial. The signal is then sent to a set-top box which can then receive and output on a Dolby Vision TV.

Salty, you were USA forewarned , weeks ago…… https://forum.blu-ray.com/showthread...g#post14037869

[Penton-Man]

Originally Posted by DanBa

Alphabet soup
https://twitter.com/Nebul2/status/909728762983575552

Could have included one more ingredient distinguishing itself from the others with subscript notation - https://forum.blu-ray.com/showthread...20post13467638

[Penton-Man]

Originally Posted by Geoff D

Hello, I'm Geoff and I'm a HDRaholic.

My true confession -
I am a chocoholic and for that, to this day, I blame those chocolates placed on my pillow during the nightly turndown service at hotels I’ve stayed at.

Anyway Geoff , be it SDR or HDR, just remember to blink, etc….in order to prevent an inflammatory cascade necessitating more expensive solutions as these days our screen addicted culture is now more predisposed to the problem of DED than previous generations –
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=-GXaAU7fKps#t=3m49s

[HeatEquation]

Originally Posted by DanBa

http://www.avsforum.com/forum/465-hi...l#post54128881
http://www.avsforum.com/forum/465-hi...l#post54757846


According to Jeff Park, Director of Technology at HDMI LA, a HDMI 2.0a/2.0b => HDMI 2.1 firmware upgrade is possible if the HDMI chipset was designed to be upgradable.
https://cepro.ehmedia.co/webinar-confirmation11710499


The HDMI 2.1 features are:
https://www.hdmi.org/manufacturer/hdmi_2_1/
. Dynamic HDR (i.e. transmission of SMPTE ST 2094 dynamic metadata across HDMI)
. eARC
. VRR
. 48 Gbps (4K@120 HFR, …).


According to Rob Tobias, CEO & President at HDMI LA, all features in HDMI 2.1 are optional.




For example, Microsoft will certify the Xbox One X Project Scorpio for HDMI 2.1 VRR when the HDMI 2.1 spec is finalized.






Marantz can certify the new Marantz AVRs for HDMI 2.1 eARC when the HDMI 2.1 spec is finalized.
"eARC (Enhanced Audio Return Channel) supports the transmission of 3D audio from your TV apps with a single HDMI connection for the simplest setup. This feature will be enabled via a future firmware update."
http://us.marantz.com/us/Products/Pa...oductId=SR7012


High-end TV makers can commit to upgrade to HDMI 2.1 "Dynamic HDR", i.e. transmission of ST 2094-10 dynamic metadata of ST 2094 compliant Dolby Vision, ST 2094-20/30 dynamic metadata of Technicolor HDR or ST 2094-40 dynamic metadata of HDR10Plus across HDMI.

High-end TV makers can support all operational and being standardized (i.e. via committed upgrade) HDR formats: a win-win for consumers and HDR TV makers.

The chart is still incorrect. Just in case more evidence is required, on top of Paul Williams and Vincent Teoh saying HDMI 2.0 is sufficient, in addition to an HDMI 2.0b Panasonic displaying HDR10+ over HDMI at IFA.

HDR10+ has always been likened to HDMI 2.1, the new version that increases the bandwidth, bringing it to 18 Gbps to 48 Gbps. The appeal to the latest revision of HDMI, however, will not be required. At IBC 2017 Amsterdam was shown a video chain HDR10+ - based devices are HDMI 2.0. For the accuracy there have been used a Samsung TV Q9F, a card Kona 4 for PC and the software Colorfront Transkoder.

The HAGUE (the brand that produces the Kona 4) is preparing the tools of development to provide full support to the HDR10+. In the requirements is definitely clear that the new format can be managed with a HDMI 2.0, referred to as a minimum requirement for interfacing to various devices.

https://www.bitfeed.co/page/hdr10-ca...-with-hdmi-2-0

Same thing here: http://www.avmagazine.it/news/4K/ibc...-20_12510.html (requires translation)

[Penton-Man]

Originally Posted by Penton-Man

The press corps and freelancers probably have hit all the highlights of IBC 2017 by now....

If not, from the Eye Film institute ……

ARRI at IBC 2017 in Amsterdam: 100 Years Celebration and New Products - YouTube

[Penton-Man]

Albeit from Culver City (not quite as bike friendly as Amsterdam - https://www.facebook.com/nlembassyza...24969477551564 ) , for the sake of equal exposure to other camera choices with a wide dynamic range, technology evolves in the Venice (personally, I commonly use Phillips screw drivers with magnetized bits)…

Hands-On with Sony's CineAlta VENICE: An Exclusive First Look at Removing the Sensor Block - YouTube

[DanBa]

Originally Posted by HeatEquation

The chart is still incorrect. Just in case more evidence is required, on top of Paul Williams and Vincent Teoh saying HDMI 2.0 is sufficient, in addition to an HDMI 2.0b Panasonic displaying HDR10+ over HDMI at IFA.

https://www.bitfeed.co/page/hdr10-ca...-with-hdmi-2-0

Same thing here: http://www.avmagazine.it/news/4K/ibc...-20_12510.html (requires translation)

Maybe, the chart is incorrect with regard to some "Paul Williams / Vincent Teoh" interface specification.

But the chart is about HDMI specification.

And according to the HDMI Forum, "Dynamic HDR", i.e. transmission of ST.2094 dynamic metadata, is not a HDMI 2.0b feature; it is a HDMI 2.1 feature.
https://www.hdmi.org/manufacturer/hdmi_2_1/

There will have a HDMI 2.1 (Dynamic HDR, …) compliance test specification; and a product claiming compliance with the HDMI 2.1 Dynamic HDR has to pass this HDMI compliance testing.
https://www.hdmi.org/manufacturer/testing_policies.aspx

For example, a ST.2094-10 set-top box and a compatible Dolby Vision TV shall have to be compliant with HDMI 2.1 Dynamic HDR.

"Dolby says it has successfully completed an HDR broadcast trial using SMPTE ST 2094-10, the company’s proposal for dynamic metadata within ATSC 3.0.
SMPTE ST 2094-10, which is currently reviewed as an ATSC Candidate Standard, “defines content dependent metadata creation for dynamic metadata that maximizes the experience delivered by the display of broadcast content,” according to Dolby.
Dolby has been taking live broadcast truck workflows and adding a 10-bit PQ signal at the output, which then has the dynamic metadata generating for it and is encoded as Dolby Vision into a bitstream which is sent either through an IP network, satellite and terrestrial. The signal is then sent to a set-top box which can then receive and output on a Dolby Vision TV."
http://www.fiercecable.com/broadcast...pte-st-2094-10

[DanBa]

David Wood, Chair, DVB CM-UHDTV, shares his expert view into High Frame Rate, which faces an uncertain future. [See page 46]
http://www.csimagazine.com/eblast/Di...ember_2017.pdf
"…
UHDTV is clearly on the rise in 2017, but there are different roads that could be taken from here. The word on the street is that “the best UHDTV set to buy is the one that comes on the market ten minutes after you’ve bought one”.

The road to HDR seems relatively certain. It remains to be seen what proportion of UHDTV sets include HDR capability, and what kind of screen brightness they will have. But in ten years’ time it will probably be the norm.

The road to higher frame rates is possible but less certain. The reality is that HFR will only happen if broadcasters and broadband providers are convinced that (as they say in France) the game is worth the candle. Only if they say so, will the decoder manufacturers set in motion the receivers for HFR. Its success probably rests on whether sports producers are convinced and sport fans demand it.
…"

[grodd]

Not sure if its been posted but Apple is selling the HDMI 2.1 cables now.

http://www.flatpanelshd.com/news.php...&id=1505796330

[HeatEquation]

Originally Posted by DanBa

Maybe, the chart is incorrect with regard to some "Paul Williams / Vincent Teoh" interface specification.

But the chart is about HDMI specification.

And according to the HDMI Forum, "Dynamic HDR", i.e. transmission of ST.2094 dynamic metadata, is not a HDMI 2.0b feature; it is a HDMI 2.1 feature.
https://www.hdmi.org/manufacturer/hdmi_2_1/

There will have a HDMI 2.1 (Dynamic HDR, …) compliance test specification; and a product claiming compliance with the HDMI 2.1 Dynamic HDR has to pass this HDMI compliance testing.
https://www.hdmi.org/manufacturer/testing_policies.aspx

For example, a ST.2094-10 set-top box and a compatible Dolby Vision TV shall have to be compliant with HDMI 2.1 Dynamic HDR.

"Dolby says it has successfully completed an HDR broadcast trial using SMPTE ST 2094-10, the company’s proposal for dynamic metadata within ATSC 3.0.
SMPTE ST 2094-10, which is currently reviewed as an ATSC Candidate Standard, “defines content dependent metadata creation for dynamic metadata that maximizes the experience delivered by the display of broadcast content,” according to Dolby.
Dolby has been taking live broadcast truck workflows and adding a 10-bit PQ signal at the output, which then has the dynamic metadata generating for it and is encoded as Dolby Vision into a bitstream which is sent either through an IP network, satellite and terrestrial. The signal is then sent to a set-top box which can then receive and output on a Dolby Vision TV."
http://www.fiercecable.com/broadcast...pte-st-2094-10

It's not just their opinion. In the links I posted, it says that requirements for the Kona 4 state that for HDR10+, the minimum signal interface is HDMI 2.0. Additionally, we now have two examples of 2017 HDMI 2.0 TVs (one Panasonic and one Samsung) that were able to display HDR10+ over HDMI.

[DanBa]

Originally Posted by HeatEquation

It's not just their opinion. In the links I posted, it says that requirements for the Kona 4 state that for HDR10+, the minimum signal interface is listed as HDMI 2.0. Additionally, we now have two examples of 2017 HDMI 2.0 TVs (one Panasonic and one Samsung) that were able to display HDR10+ over HDMI.

HDMI 2.1 is not necessary for "proprietary" ST.2094 dynamic metadata and for proprietary dynamic metadata of Dolby Vision.
And these dynamic metadata can be transferred across HDMI 1.4 in a proprietary way à la Dolby (i.e. dynamic metadata are tunnelled / embedded into the video flow, and A/V Receivers have problems while adding AVR screen menus into the video flow) as when there was no HDMI standardization on the subject.


Otherwise, in a standard way, the ST.2094 dynamic metadata signaling across HDMI 2.1 is detailed in the standard CTA-861-G, the base document of the HDMI 2.1 specification.
https://standards.cta.tech/kwspub/pu...-G-Preview.pdf

[HeatEquation]

Originally Posted by DanBa

HDMI 2.1 is not necessary for "proprietary" ST.2094 dynamic metadata and for proprietary dynamic metadata of Dolby Vision.
And these dynamic metadata can be transferred across HDMI 1.4 in a proprietary way à la Dolby (i.e. dynamic metadata are tunnelled / embedded into the video flow, and A/V Receivers have problems while adding AVR screen menus into the video flow) as when there was no HDMI standardization on the subject.


Otherwise, in a standard way, the ST.2094 dynamic metadata signaling across HDMI 2.1 is detailed in the standard CTA-861-G, the base document of the HDMI 2.1 specification.
https://standards.cta.tech/kwspub/pu...-G-Preview.pdf

Even more interesting, is that on the AJA official site, where they announce HDR10+ SDK support for the Kona 4, they specifically list HDMI 2.0a as the minimum signal interface:

HDR 10+ builds from HDR 10, adding dynamic metadata and more, allowing for scene by scene or even shot by shot variation. The standard allows for recognizing a display’s color space and more.

SMPTE 2094-40 Dynamic Metadata for Color Volume Transforms (DMCVT)
Color transforms optimized for each scene and each display
Metadata tracks carry supplementary color grading information
Minimum signal interface: HDMI 2.0a
Playback color representation BT.2020 or BT. 709 dependent on display
Playback transfer function: ST 2084
Playback bit depth: 10-bit
Open standard

https://www.aja.com/news/top-stories/644

[DanBa]

Originally Posted by HeatEquation

It's not just their opinion. In the links I posted, it says that requirements for the Kona 4 state that for HDR10+, the minimum signal interface is HDMI 2.0. Additionally, we now have two examples of 2017 HDMI 2.0 TVs (one Panasonic and one Samsung) that were able to display HDR10+ over HDMI.

KONA 4: ... Support for Tunneling Dolby Vision and HDR10+ Dynamic Metadata

=>

HDMI 2.1 is not necessary for "proprietary" ST.2094 dynamic metadata and for proprietary dynamic metadata of Dolby Vision.
And these dynamic metadata can be transferred across HDMI 1.4 / 2.0 in a proprietary way à la Dolby or à la KONA (i.e. dynamic metadata are tunneled / embedded into the video flow, and A/V Receivers have problems while adding AVR screen menus into the video flow) as when there was no HDMI standardization on the subject.


Demo products are not products.


Concerning Samsung
http://www.avsforum.com/forum/465-hi...l#post54748462

Originally Posted by Rudy1

One of the [Samsung] directors told me last week that the HDR10 Plus firmware update (USB & streaming) for 2016 TVs is still on track. They've not determined yet whether HDR10 Plus over HDMI is possible with the current (2016/2017) HDMI chipsets.

Originally Posted by Rudy1

They feel more testing is necessary before they can be sure that the 2017 sets will work reliably over HDMI with HDR10 Plus. This late into the model year they may just to wait for HDMI 2.1 (and all its features) for the 2018 TVs, then upgrade 2016/2017 sets with an OCB if all of the connection/interoperability issues can be resolved.

As "Dynamic HDR" is being a HDMI 2.1 feature, it does not matter if the HDMI chipset of a Dynamic HDR TV is 2.0 (i.e. upgraded to 2.1) or brand new 2.1, this Dynamic HDR TV can get the HDMI 2.1 Dynamic HDR certification.


Open standard specifications (i.e. HDMI 2.1 specification, HDMI 2.1 compliance test specification) are the key to interoperability.

[Penton-Man]

While away I received a PM asking/criticizing me why I….. “never give out thank you tags to anyone’s posts.”

To be clear, I actually started clicking out the button ‘thank you’s’ aways back but then too often I saw the privilege of assigning automatic ‘thank you’s’ and ‘likes’ on websites being abused (by some membership utilizing them not in the spirit of thankfulness but rather prejudiciously as a platform (by intentionally withholding them) in order to shun those they dislike on a personal basis rather than for the merit of the contribution or well intended spirit to participate.

So, given that, the thing is, I prefer to thank members by addressing them directly in a dedicated reply. If....along the way I’ve missed endorsing anyone’s post with such a formal recognition, I’m sorry as it was not meant to be dismissive of the contribution or the poster’s appearance, simply an oversight or time constraint issue on my part.

[Penton-Man]

Originally Posted by DanBa

David Wood, Chair, DVB CM-UHDTV, shares his expert view into High Frame Rate, which faces an uncertain future....

Always with the red jacket

David also has been known to post his thoughts (personal and official) about the parameters of next gen video and audio in this group (hyperlink in 1st paragraph)…. https://forum.blu-ray.com/showthread...n#post13948582 . Had quite a lively discussion back in the day regarding BT 2020 vs P3 vs XYZ color spaces for UHDTV.

HFR will come....only a matter of when. It's a killer app for sports for anyone whose seen it.

[DanBa]

Originally Posted by Penton-Man

...
HFR will come....only a matter of when. It's a killer app for sports for anyone whose seen it.

If it will come, I think that the 120/60 HFR profile should be used so that it is compatible with current 60fps UHDTV.

[PeterTHX]

Proof will be in the pudding if they actually *have* HDR10+ via HDMI 2.0a/b


Saying it doesn't make it so until that.

[gkolb]

Originally Posted by Penton-Man

While away I received a PM asking/criticizing me why I….. “never give out thank you tags to anyone’s posts.”

To be clear, I actually started clicking out the button ‘thank you’s’ aways back but then too often I saw the privilege of assigning automatic ‘thank you’s’ and ‘likes’ on websites being abused (by some membership utilizing them not in the spirit of thankfulness but rather prejudiciously as a platform (by intentionally withholding them) in order to shun those they dislike on a personal basis rather than for the merit of the contribution or well intended spirit to participate.

So, given that, the thing is, I prefer to thank members by addressing them directly in a dedicated reply. If....along the way I’ve missed endorsing anyone’s post with such a formal recognition, I’m sorry as it was not meant to be dismissive of the contribution or the poster’s appearance, simply an oversight or time constraint issue on my part.

I call bs on anyone thinking you owe them 'thanks'. What you do or don't do is entirely up to you (or anyone else here). So thanks for explaining your thoughts.

[gkolb]

Originally Posted by HeatEquation

It's not just their opinion. In the links I posted, it says that requirements for the Kona 4 state that for HDR10+, the minimum signal interface is HDMI 2.0. Additionally, we now have two examples of 2017 HDMI 2.0 TVs (one Panasonic and one Samsung) that were able to display HDR10+ over HDMI.

Heat, serious thought here.

I'm not trying to argue the position of getting streaming 10+ over HDMI 2 or higher. But what about when an AVR is in the middle? Essentially same problem DV faced. HDMI 2.0b was utilized so the AVR could recognize the Dynamic metadata. HDR10+ has dynamic metadata, how will it be forced thru an HDMI 2.0a hole in the AVR? Either 2.0b will need another FW upgrade, or 2.1 might be the answer.

I think the position being argued about 2.0a is a myopic, short term reaction, not the full long term going forward answer. And to have the outside experts taking the short term position will lead to bitter tears later for some.

Edit: (couldn't edit this from my iPhone, hmmm) My last thought above was 'tears' for hardware buyers on limited budgets who can't re-buy when every spec changes.

[HeatEquation]

Originally Posted by gkolb

Heat, serious thought here.

I'm not trying to argue the position of getting streaming 10+ over HDMI 2 or higher. But what about when an AVR is in the middle? Essentially same problem DV faced. HDMI 2.0b was utilized so the AVR could recognize the Dynamic metadata. HDR10+ has dynamic metadata, how will it be forced thru an HDMI 2.0a hole in the AVR? Either 2.0b will need another FW upgrade, or 2.1 might be the answer.

I think the position being argued about 2.0a is a myopic, short term reaction, not the full long term going forward answer. And to have the outside experts taking the short term position will lead to bitter tears later for some.

Not sure, but that wouldn't affect me, as I don't use an AVR.