8K discussion thread

[Robert Zohn]

Sorry about the low audio. If you can play the video on a TV you can raise the volume. Florian does speak with detail about how the benefits of 8K resolution can be appreciated at any viewing distance.

Florian is also working on a new 8K 10bit disc and it will include much of the results of his research.

[Blu-rayNut51]

Originally Posted by Robert Zohn

Sorry about the low audio. If you can play the video on a TV you can raise the volume. Florian does speak with detail about how the benefits of 8K resolution can be appreciated at any viewing distance.

Florian is also working on a new 8K 10bit disc and it will include much of the results of his research.

Honestly, audio so low-tech in nature, seemed like quite a culture clash, since it was providing coverage of such a high-tech topic as the many characteristics and advantages which differentiate 8k displays from 4k and 1080p displays.

[Blu-rayNut51]

Mr Zohn, as well as Florian Friedrich, provide some compelling sounding arguments in favor of 8k displays providing a useful visual improvement for TV viewers, compared to the 4k displays that many people own.

But IMO, the introduction of 8k TVs to the U.S. market, is simply happening too soon, since we're still at a point when the popular primetime TV shows that so many Americans watch each night, aren't even being presented in 4k yet. (or EVEN in HDR)

So obviously, for quite a long time, 8k displays are going to be a very tough sell to the vast majority of TV viewers who don't belong to that small group of video enthusiasts (like the people of our forum here) who are early adopters of the latest video tech.

Plus, whether claims that average people will see PQ improvements with 8k TVs, at normal viewing distances, are really accurate claims, or not, in the past decade, many who bought 4k TVs, at places like Best Buy, found salesmen had greatly exaggerated a PQ advance they'd see with 4k TVs over high-def TVs, with the same primetime network shows, & HBO programs, they'd view on cable & satellite services, that most Americans feed to living room TVs.

Since the major HD channels on cable & satellite, which most people watch, have never broadcast in resolutions higher than 1080i or 720p, and NONE of them feature HDR, not only have many folks who've replaced older TVs with 4k units, been disappointed in not seeing a notable improvement with 4k TVs, but a number of people found that their NEW 4k panels had INFERIOR PQ, compared to their good old Panasonic or Pioneer plasmas, in performance areas like realistic display of motion, & doing a good job with dark scenes of movies. I even recall a Best Buy salesman, who after realizing I read up on video tech, was candid enough with me, to admit that he and his friends much preferred to watch sports on his 5 year old Panasonic plasma, than seeing the same games on his new Sony 4k TV.

Long story short folks, since so many Americans have yet to be impressed by noticing that their 4k TVs provide any really significant PQ advance with the Non-HDR shows & movies that they watch, compared to what their earlier high-def TVs gave them, such folks are apt to be quite cynical when a Best Buy salesman claims to them that an 8k TV will provide a PQ improvement at home, even though there are no 8k movies or shows to watch on such a TV.

[Robert Zohn]

Thanks for continuing the conversation as I'd like everyone to understand and appreciate the advancements for the high-end premium consumer video market.

So after you and all of our members and visiting readers considered all of the technical explanations of how the increased resolution delivers a better image at any viewing distance please also consider the most important advantages that is built-into all of the manufacturers 8K TV offerings. Here's the list of picture quality advantages that are designed, engineered and built into all 8K TVs.

The very best and retuned video processors that enhance the video performance in the following ways:

1.) Improved up-conversion scaling so low resolution cable and even all 1080p and 4K HDR streaming and physical disc playback is optimized for the 8K display.

2.) Enhanced color decoding so you see more of the DCI/P3 color gamut with better fidelity and better color saturation and color volume.

3) Improved motion resolution.

All 8K TVs also benefit by the premium display technologies employed exclusively on the 8K models. For example, Sony's Z9G and Z8H series that deliver up to 4,000nits of peak luminance so you don't have to compress the HDR dynamic tonal range or color volume.

Most importantly, the proof is in the pudding, and I see this everyday in our showroom along with the many consumers who visit our store and see our main TV showroom with all of the 8K and flagship 4K TVs all lined up next to each other. Every single novice and enthusiasts quickly and easily pick out the 8K TVs as the best picture quality.

The answer is clear, if you want the best TV, like it or not, it's a new 8K.

[Robert Zohn]

Originally Posted by Robert Zohn

Sorry about the low audio. If you can play the video on a TV you can raise the volume. Florian does speak with detail about how the benefits of 8K resolution can be appreciated at any viewing distance.

Florian is also working on a new 8K 10bit disc and it will include much of the results of his research.

Originally Posted by Blu-rayNut51

Honestly, audio so low-tech in nature, seemed like quite a culture clash, since it was providing coverage of such a high-tech topic as the many characteristics and advantages which differentiate 8k displays from 4k and 1080p displays.

At the last minute the professional videographer could not attend so I had my daughter record the session on my iPhone. I'm now working on boosting the volume and I'll relaunch it shortly.

[Penton-Man]

Originally Posted by Robert Zohn

Sorry about the low audio. If you can play the video on a TV you can raise the volume. Florian does speak with detail about how the benefits of 8K resolution can be appreciated at any viewing distance.

Florian is also working on a new 8K 10bit disc and it will include much of the results of his research.

Good to hear. Despite him ultimately pursuing an alternative HDR format to that of what I favor, I remember back when dynamic metadata was first being introduced/presented (in webinar by the document editor for ST 2086 and ST 2094), Florian asking the right questions, e.g. (a post from 2016) –

Originally Posted by Penton-Man

during the Society’s 2094 webinar Florian asking ‘what are some practical examples of situations where dynamic metadata is beneficial’. He and roughly 150 other listeners were so enlightened as to specific examples.

Meanwhile, at your store do you have any 65” 8K tvs set up next to 65” 4K tvs at the 9 - 10 ft. (3 meters) screen to eye distance to corroborate the results of Dr. Park et al. ? -




that 8K tvs of that size at that distance show a superior image quality (no matter what be the root cause, which can be debated ad nausea, but at the end of the day a potential serious typical buyer off the street only cares if it does, not so much how, since they have no formal training in vision or color science to begin with).

[Penton-Man]

Originally Posted by Penton-Man

Meanwhile, at your store do you have any 65” 8K tvs set up next to 65” 4K tvs at the 9 - 10 ft. (3 meters) screen to eye distance to corroborate the results of Dr. Park et al. ? -

^
Using commonly available video source to you be it UHD Blu-ray movies or whatever

[Geoff D]

"Author D. Park, Y. Kim and Y. Park want to acknowledge the funding received from Samsung Display"

[LordSummerIsle]

MicroLED will be more reasonably priced before 8K TVs become reasonably priced.

[JohnAV]

Originally Posted by scwilli1

MicroLED will be more reasonably priced before 8K TVs become reasonably priced.

Enjoy your stuck/dead pixels.

[Robert Zohn]

@Penton-Man The smallest 8K TV we have set-up in our showroom is Samsungs 75" Q900R and it's in the mix with LG's and Sony's 77" 4K OLEDs and several 75" 4K premium LCD TVs.

[Robert Zohn]

Originally Posted by scwilli1

MicroLED will be more reasonably priced before 8K TVs become reasonably priced.

I'm not a fan of the seems between the module panels and uneven panel uniformity. Also the prices will be very very high.

[Scottishguy]

Aren't these all just manufacturing issues that will be ironed out? Plus they are aiming to make fixed panel sizes as well I thought?

It really all comes down to how much money and infrastructure all the big TV manufacturers dedicate to it's development.

[Blu-rayNut51]

Originally Posted by Robert Zohn

@Penton-Man The smallest 8K TV we have set-up in our showroom is Samsungs 75" Q900R and it's in the mix with LG's and Sony's 77" 4K OLEDs and several 75" 4K premium LCD TVs.

Mr Zohn, because OLED tech possesses such a superiority to LCD/LED backlit tech, would you not agree that if one of your flat panel shootout type of events was held, to just compare that Samsung 75" 8k LCD with the Sony and LG 4k OLEDs, the two OLEDs would be rated by experienced viewers as possessing the better overall video quality?

I mean, because of the inherent inability of LCDs to be able to display true black (which is the foundation of a great picture), in an attempt to achieve high performance in that area, the designers of LCD flat panels had to come up with the scheme of local dimming, which then brings along some picture defects of its own.

So IMO, if the members of this forum all participated in a series of double-blind viewing comparisons of identical sized flat panels, so that brands and model numbers of the panels were not known by viewers, when the final votes from our forum members, for their favorite panels, had all been tabulated, OLED panels with 4k resolution would have ended up handily defeating all of the 8k LCD/LED panels, in overall PQ.

[Penton-Man]

Originally Posted by Geoff D

"Author D. Park, Y. Kim and Y. Park want to acknowledge the funding received from Samsung Display"

Well yes something to be aware of, especially given your interest in reviewing movies as there has been the case of a reviewer of Blu-rays and such as a side-interest on another forum that over the years has had uncommon inside access to mastering personnel, etc. at this or that studio regarding this or that title and one could legitimately argue has a vested interest in continuing a good relationship with them and thusly could shade his reviews more positively than they deserve to be….compared to someone with no such access)

but anyway fact is she/they don’t acknowledge any financial interest in Samsung and even if she did, important to note that acknowledging such a financial interest does not make the research and development invalid or without merit, see Mark from USC

for instance, in the acknowledgements here - https://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pmc/articles/PMC4356127/

[Penton-Man]

Originally Posted by Robert Zohn

Thanks for continuing the conversation as I'd like everyone to understand and appreciate the advancements for the high-end premium consumer video market.

hey, we’ve got to get you retired, financially secure and living out here in thee O.C.

[Fendergopher]

Samsung showed off a 4K 75" microLED at CES last year. The seams were fairly noticeable. The tech will get there, but nothing to hold your breath over I don't think. I'm not even sure if they've gotten to the point where they get reliable yields from manufacturing.

[Geoff D]

Originally Posted by Penton-Man

Well yes something to be aware of, especially given your interest in reviewing movies as there has been the case of a reviewer of Blu-rays and such as a side-interest on another forum that over the years has had uncommon inside access to mastering personnel, etc. at this or that studio regarding this or that title and one could legitimately argue has a vested interest in continuing a good relationship with them and thusly could shade his reviews more positively than they deserve to be….compared to someone with no such access)

but anyway fact is she/they don’t acknowledge any financial interest in Samsung and even if she did, important to note that acknowledging such a financial interest does not make the research and development invalid or without merit, see Mark from USC

for instance, in the acknowledgements here - https://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pmc/articles/PMC4356127/

Coming back to me again (don't it always?) but as I'm, ah, 'freelance' when it comes to my reviews then I also couldn't much care how said 'pro' reviewer conducts his or her business. Hell, that's one of the reasons why I don't read/watch disc reviews as a matter of course, as aside from the reams of spectacularly misinformed people you've also got the 'pros' who may well be sweetening the reviews just to keep in the good books of the studios. It's an irony then that this dude who doesn't like reviews loves nothing better than to do his own reviews, but whatcha gonna do?

[Fendergopher]

Originally Posted by Penton-Man

Good to hear. Despite him ultimately pursuing an alternative HDR format to that of what I favor, I remember back when dynamic metadata was first being introduced/presented (in webinar by the document editor for ST 2086 and ST 2094), Florian asking the right questions, e.g. (a post from 2016) –

Meanwhile, at your store do you have any 65” 8K tvs set up next to 65” 4K tvs at the 9 - 10 ft. (3 meters) screen to eye distance to corroborate the results of Dr. Park et al. ? -

[Show spoiler]

that 8K tvs of that size at that distance show a superior image quality (no matter what be the root cause, which can be debated ad nausea, but at the end of the day a potential serious typical buyer off the street only cares if it does, not so much how, since they have no formal training in vision or color science to begin with).

Interesting how that conclusion is almost identical to the one in this (https://pid.samsungdisplay.com/en/le...-8k-resolution) publication from Samsung Display, which was posted no later than February 2019 from what I could find. Seemingly the study/article you've highlighted neglects to mention that Y. Park was a "Senior Engineer at Samsung Display" which the publication does mention. If this: https://onlinelibrary.wiley.com/action/cookieAbsent is the correct study/article then it's behind a paywall and I haven't verified if it clearly states the researchers' credentials or not.


Edit: Found the article here: https://www.researchgate.net/publica...ion_8K_Display and on the same website it has a page which states Y. Park's credentials. The article itself has a link to that page.

[Geoff D]

Originally Posted by Fendergopher

Interesting how that conclusion is almost identical to the one in this (https://pid.samsungdisplay.com/en/le...-8k-resolution) publication from Samsung Display, which was posted no later than February 2019 from what I could find. Seemingly the study/article you've highlighted neglects to mention that Y. Park was a "Senior Engineer at Samsung Display" which the publication does mention. If this: https://onlinelibrary.wiley.com/action/cookieAbsent is the correct study/article then it's behind a paywall and I haven't verified if it clearly states the researchers' credentials or not.


Edit: Found the article here: https://www.researchgate.net/publica...ion_8K_Display and on the same website it has a page which states Y. Park's credentials. The article itself has a link to that page.