UHD Blu-ray Disc Authentication Poll

[octagon]

Originally Posted by Kirsty_Mc

... Till some day your cherished collection (or part of it) no longer plays. Then your investment in the hardware counts for nothing. The only thing you are left with is a very nasty taste in your mouth and a hole in your bank balance.

Not a Game of Thrones fan, I take it. That would have been a perfect place for 'and your joy will turn to ashes in your mouth'.

That said, uncertainty and inconvenience are two fairly distinct issues. I can easily see potential buyers being turned off by the idea that discs might not play three or five or ten years in the future.

I have a harder time picturing significant numbers of potential UHD-BD buyers turning away from it because internet access is just one hoop too many. We're not exactly talking about a technophobic segment of the buying public and internet access is pretty much a staple these days.

[Kirsty_Mc]

Yes, it's certainly the uncertainty. I (probably amongst others) don't have money to waste on something with an inbuilt self destruct in it. If online DRM is used, that is what is could be sitting on your shelf. One day it works, the next it is an expensive coaster

Now I know about built in obsolescence, but this is something much more insidious.

[PenguinMaster]

Originally Posted by octagon

Not a Game of Thrones fan, I take it. That would have been a perfect place for 'and your joy will turn to ashes in your mouth'.

That said, uncertainty and inconvenience are two fairly distinct issues. I can easily see potential buyers being turned off by the idea that discs might not play three or five or ten years in the future.

I have a harder time picturing significant numbers of potential UHD-BD buyers turning away from it because internet access is just one hoop too many. We're not exactly talking about a technophobic segment of the buying public and internet access is pretty much a staple these days.

People who were for Xbox One's original plan used the argument that if you have an internet connection (which everyone who was posting on a forum obviously did) then why would you be against an online requirement? There's a big difference between requiring an internet connection and requiring a connection to specific servers.

I have a reliable internet connection and I probably will for the rest of my life. But I don't expect any servers to still be around for more than 10 years after the format is no longer in production. Does anyone here honestly believe that if VHS or LaserDisc required a server check those servers would still be up and running?

[Dynamo of Eternia]

Originally Posted by PenguinMaster

People who were for Xbox One's original plan used the argument that if you have an internet connection (which everyone who was posting on a forum obviously did) then why would you be against an online requirement? There's a big difference between requiring an internet connection and requiring a connection to specific servers.

I have a reliable internet connection and I probably will for the rest of my life. But I don't expect any servers to still be around for more than 10 years after the format is no longer in production. Does anyone here honestly believe that if VHS or LaserDisc required a server check those servers would still be up and running?

Exactly. It's not that the Internet connection itself is an extra "hoop" that we refuse to jump through. It's the uncertainty of long term support from these companies on the back end down the road. This isn't exactly a rocket science to understand.

[chip75]

Originally Posted by Dex Robinson

I fugure about 16% of people will live with it.

The rest of us will say, "Screw it".

The BDA needs to be aware that they have NO wiggle room. In a shrinking physical media market, they need to understand that they do not have a large, captive pool of buyers who are willing tolerate further inconvenience.

It will depend on how much an inconvenience it really is, if at the end of the day our players and TVs are all Smart and require internet access to get the most out of them, then a few seconds activating a UHDBD isn't going to bother most people. It's certainly less inconvenient than waiting for a console game to update or download to our hard drives on Christmas mornings!

I don't think this is a inconvenience issue, it's a control issue. People are rightly worried that they'll have their control of playback taken away. It is a worry too, a few manufacturers have had Apps removed from their TVs and BD players recently as they're no longer supported or the developers have dropped a platform. I just can't see UHDBDs been supported forever and that would eventually make them worthless. There'd have to be safeguards against that.

[bruceames]

Originally Posted by chip75

It will depend on how much an inconvenience it really is, if at the end of the day our players and TVs are all Smart and require internet access to get the most out of them, then a few seconds activating a UHDBD isn't going to bother most people. It's certainly less inconvenient than waiting for a console game to update or download to our hard drives on Christmas mornings!

I don't think this is a inconvenience issue, it's a control issue. People are rightly worried that they'll have their control of playback taken away. It is a worry too, a few manufacturers have had Apps removed from their TVs and BD players recently as they're no longer supported or the developers have dropped a platform. I just can't see UHDBDs been supported forever and that would eventually make them worthless. There'd have to be safeguards against that.

Yes there would. I think that disabling the online authentication requirement when they take the servers down would be a no brainer. How would it look if they suddenly close down access to million of discs? It would kill sell through and they are not going to do that because sell through is their bread and butter. They want you to keep buying the same movies over and over.

[Ruined]

Originally Posted by chip75

There'd have to be safeguards against that.

The only true safeguard would be sticking with blu-ray2k instead of buying into uhd blu-ray really... Anything else is a promise that may or may not be kept 10 years from now.

[Anthony P]

Originally Posted by octagon

I agree that any form of online authentication will turn off some segment of potential buyers but I think you're overestimating the 'inconvenience' factor.

You're talking about a product that requires new displays and new receivers and new players. As far as jumping through hoops goes, adding an active internet connection to that mix doesn't seem overly burdensome.

that is because you are trying to make excuses.

1) Someone would need to be braindead to assume their 1080p TV will magically become 4k or their old receiver will magically have Atmos or their old player will magically be able to deal with 4k. So anyone interested in 4k will have already been OK with the costs. There is also the simple fact that things brake (I need a new TV, what do I get?) and people move up in life ( just bought a house with a room I want to add a TV.... to). So anyone interested in 4K has already dealt with any and all those hoops and is ready for them. On the other hand there is no technical reason for needing an on-line connection, so there is no reason for him to be OK with an active internet connection

2) you don't know peoples situation. For example, I have a friend that has a cottage (cabin, chalet, summer home, lake house.....) on a private island in a lake. When he bought the property and started building the home he looked into getting a phone line and power but neither made sense ( the electric company wanted 6 figures to bring the power (so he decided to be self sufficient), the Telco could bring a phone and dial up but only 2-years after the electric company did its job (which he saw as ridiculously expensive) and wireless would require a 50' tower so that it is not in the shadow of the cliff (hard to do and an eyesore that would ruin the pristine nature).

[Anthony P]

Originally Posted by octagon

That said, uncertainty and inconvenience are two fairly distinct issues. I can easily see potential buyers being turned off by the idea that discs might not play three or five or ten years in the future.

or the day they go to play it for the first time or the day they buy it. Let me ask you this, you have been here for a while, have you seriously never read or heard of someone buying a BD with a DC, going to redeem the code and the title was taken off and the DC is no longer available? The difference now is that it will notr only happen with the DB but with the disk itself if it needs to be connected to the internet.

We're not exactly talking about a technophobic segment of the buying public and internet access is pretty much a staple these days.

It might be , but I have no internet access in my HT which is where I want to watch my UHD BDs, there is no Ethernet and there is no Wi-Fi even though I have Wi-Fi everywhere else in my home.

I have a harder time picturing significant numbers of potential UHD-BD buyers turning away from it because internet access is just one hoop too many.

maybe but you were the one to brought up hoops, he originally talked about inconvenience. And not being able to watch a film you bought when you want might is not a hoop one can jump through but it is an inconvenience one might decide they can do without.

[Anthony P]

Originally Posted by bruceames.

Yes there would. I think that disabling the online authentication requirement when they take the servers down would be a no brainer. How would it look if they suddenly close down access to million of discs? It would kill sell through and they are not going to do that because sell through is their bread and butter. They want you to keep buying the same movies over and over.

Ask DIVX, ask Target.

[bailey1987]

Lets just say the online authentication went ahead, would there ever be an alternative solution that is still physical? If yes then I will not buy ultra HD Blu-ray if no then I will have to buy ultra HD Blu-ray.

[Blu-Dog]

Originally Posted by bailey1987

Lets just say the online authentication went ahead, would there ever be an alternative solution that is still physical? If yes then I will not buy ultra HD Blu-ray if no then I will have to buy ultra HD Blu-ray.

Authentication is simple. It can be included on a USB port dongle that plugs into a port on the player, with the movie.


The only reason to force what they call authentication is to access user information - IP address, MAC address, time of day used, physical location, and other stuff used for targeted marketing. It has little or nothing to do with authentication the product's license.

[Penton-Man]

Originally Posted by Anthony P

It might be , but I have no internet access in my HT which is where I want to watch my UHD BDs, there is no Ethernet and there is no Wi-Fi...

Same situation as with my next door neighbor (a movie fan) who would only be interested in an Ultra HD Blu-ray player if no internet access to his HT room was required.

[raygendreau]

I think one time online authentication is a done deal and it was decided on when the BDVM-FE was finalized. So AACS 2.0 enhanced will be used and it will apply, not only to Ultra HD-BR, but new BDs as well when loaded in the new UHD players. So, your only “safe haven” will be legacy BDs with AACS 1.0.

“The specs call for the ability
to authenticate devices at the time
that consumption happens. “It leans
on two-way networks and security is
then based on a two-way communication
between the headend and device,”
Peterka explains. He thinks the
attitude to revocation is also important.
“The studios have realized that
content security solutions can be
broken, so they want an environment
where they can revoke a solution and
get it fixed and re-instated.””

http://www.digitalglue.com/pdf/Video...port_Final.pdf

The following benchmark revised Jan. 2015.
http://www.movielabs.com/ngvideo/Mov...ion%20v1.1.pdf

http://www.myce.com/news/sony-hack-r...details-75833/

[Dex Robinson]

I have no 'net access in my HT room and I recently lost my home network entirely.

On night, my ISP did an "upgrade" to their system. The next day, I had no network. I called my ISP and got a recorded message saying that users of certain routers would need to contact the router manufacturer...of course, the router manufacturer had no idea what the hell my ISP had screwed up.

I just decided, "Crap...I don't need to deal with this nonsense. If I want to hook up to the net, I'll just go into the computer room where everything is hardwired".

And so it remains.

Not only will I not deal with the inconvenience of online authentication, I have no desire to deal with my home network issues in general.

People who think this is a minor issue are completely blind to ongoing discussions here and elsewhere. One may argue that our poll is not scientific but with nearly 180 responses from Blu-ray fans so far, it's hard to ignore that only 26 are OK with the idea. Well, you can ignore it if it suits your purposes...but, seriously, the online authentication idea is so hugely unpopular that this isn't even a real argument anymore.

[schan1269]

Originally Posted by Anthony P

that is because you are trying to make excuses.

1) Someone would need to be braindead to assume their 1080p TV will magically become 4k or their old receiver will magically have Atmos or their old player will magically be able to deal with 4k. So anyone interested in 4k will have already been OK with the costs. There is also the simple fact that things brake (I need a new TV, what do I get?) and people move up in life ( just bought a house with a room I want to add a TV.... to). So anyone interested in 4K has already dealt with any and all those hoops and is ready for them. On the other hand there is no technical reason for needing an on-line connection, so there is no reason for him to be OK with an active internet connection

2) you don't know peoples situation. For example, I have a friend that has a cottage (cabin, chalet, summer home, lake house.....) on a private island in a lake. When he bought the property and started building the home he looked into getting a phone line and power but neither made sense ( the electric company wanted 6 figures to bring the power (so he decided to be self sufficient), the Telco could bring a phone and dial up but only 2-years after the electric company did its job (which he saw as ridiculously expensive) and wireless would require a 50' tower so that it is not in the shadow of the cliff (hard to do and an eyesore that would ruin the pristine nature).

So...he can't do satellite TV/internet?

[trans8010]

Not everyone has access to the internet in their homes. Technology like this is jumping ahead prematurely. I have friends that are still using dial up because it's the only thing available to them. There are still 2.6-4 million customers using dial up, because of this limitation. These people could not buy into UHD blu-ray. They can buy blu-ray in it's current form and perhaps a good percentage does but look at the upcoming format and it's immediately closed off.

[Anthony P]

Originally Posted by Blu-Dog

Authentication is simple. It can be included on a USB port dongle that plugs into a port on the player, with the movie.

not with what we are discussing (though to be honest there is always several ideas at the same time)

With AACS 1.0 every title had to have a title key on the disk. It was a cash grab for AACS, they charge the studio 500$ for each one (there is also an AACS membership fee and a per disk charge) so a BD could have more then one (i.e. if a movie is split on two disks you need a key for each one, if a combo has a 2D BD and a 3B BD you need two title keys one for the 2D and one of the 3D, also if something goes wrong during the creation of the BD master you need a new key for the new master even if the film was never replicated)


Now with AACS 2.0 the title key no longer has to be with the disk, it can be hosted on the AACS server. So when you put it in the player the player checks the disk "not there can't play" checks the local storage on the player "not there, can't play" and goes to the AACS server to DL the key to play the disk.

Since the title key is directly related to the disk in the player a USB dongle would do nothing.

The "official" idea behind the title key being on the server is that if the release date is March 19th and somehow on March 17th you got a hold of the BD disk it checks the disk "not there can't play" checks the local storage on the player "not there, can't play" and goes to the AACS server to DL the key "not there, can't play" and you can't watch the film because you are trying to do so before the official release date. The issue is what happens if you go on March 19th but your connection is problematic or the AACS server is problematic or busy? what happens if you buy the film a year later (not really interested and waited for the price to drop) don't watch it for a few months and you go to play it and you get it checks the disk "not there can't play" checks the local storage on the player "not there, can't play" and goes to the AACS server to DL the key "not there, can't play because the title key has been pulled? that has happened numerous times with unlocking a DC that came with a BD and there have been threads about it here.

[Ruined]

I'm not sure everyone realizes it yet, but this all boils down to two inevitable physical media options:

1. Buy UHDBD and live with online authentication, including all its risks and pitfalls, in exchange for 4k source resolution.

2. Stick with 1080p Blu-ray and live with 1080p source resolution in exchange for no online authentication.

In the end, that is the choice everyone will have to make. It might not be at UHDBD launch, it may not even be in 2 years time. But eventually, that will be the choice.

[Geoff D]

That's about the size of it. 1080p is the highest resolution we're gonna get for a totally offline playback solution.