4K Blu-ray Confirmed, Coming in

[dublinbluray108]

The implications for UHD Blu going with online authentication will practically be a pain in the proverbial butt for a small number of consumers who don't prefer having to go through a process in where movies or TV shows in 4K will have a limited set of controls for HE use.

If I did afford to get UHD Blu with the TV and some discs it would be very painful for me if I had spent a wheelbarrow full of cash only to find out that a certain number of years that if I am not going to be able to use my small UHD collection if the studios do not give out extra support after a uncertain amount of time. At this point; we the A/V enthusiasts and general consumers don't even know what length of time the studios are going to give us by way of providing UHD support if we get opportunities to play UHD Blu-rays in our home.

Such time wasting from their point of view is not giving any ounce of guarantees that it will be a long-term success. Therefore, In the lead-up to this launch, the studio executives along with The UHD-BD alliance must give initial timelines of support in terms for all UHD-BD movies & TV shows to show it's potential market of consumers in which the market itself will be very small. I feel that this is one necessary part of the process that needs to be given to them in order to provide a level of certainty and demand to make the format viable for mass market release.

To give a level of say 5 to 10 years for this format to survive will be considered too small for UHD-BD to take lift off to final launch. I would suggest to them that a support of at least 15 to 20 years could be do-able if it is able to last that length of time.

Another thing that is needed to be sorted out and finalised is the digital bridge mechanism. The studios and manufacturers have to prepare differing types of software needed to provide this service as it won't come to be implemented very quickly. That level of work has too much detail and finesse because it has to be catered for each type of UHD-BD player being sold on the market and that could be a tough job to implement.

[rdodolak]

Originally Posted by FilmFreakosaurus

You place more trust in the studios than most of us do or ever will.

These authentication servers do not last forever, which is a fact. If you update your player or buy one as a spare and the studio has pulled support for a particular title... you may be screwed.

Exactly, what happens if a label (Olive, Shout, Kino, TT, etc) loses the distribution rights to a film? Are they required to or do they stop making the key available as soon as they no longer have the rights? Those physical copies don't automatically disappear from the store shelves. It's feasible someone can pick up an OOP disc and then can't get the authentication key which would them mean they have an expensive piece of plastic since no store will accept an open disc for refund due to piracy fears.

EDIT: Or what if a consumer purchases a new player after the authentication keys are no longer available for download? Is that consumer expected to just throw out a good portion of their collection because it's now useless.

Originally Posted by Geoff D

That's as may be, although I don't plan to live forever. Look, folks need to realise that us being entrusted with such high-quality versions (not just pixel res but colour gamut, bit depth etc) of the studio's most prized assets is not going to come without some form of operational compromise on our behalf. Do I like it? Of course not. But the studios have become more and more concerned about protecting their content with every step of the home video journey, and I'm pragmatic enough to realise that UHD BD may come with certain restrictions, restrictions that I can live with in order to get my hands on some UHD goodies.

But that's the crux of the issue as the studios may allow you to purchase a higher-quality version but they don't trust you with it. That's why the studios are going to the nth degree to further clamp down with tighter DRM. But I believe it once again will be a futile attempt as it's only a matter of time before someone figures out how to unlock it. It's as if these studios are throwing out a challenge to the hackers.

[Geoff D]

Originally Posted by dublinbluray108

The implications for UHD Blu going with online authentication will practically be a pain in the proverbial butt for a small number of consumers who don't prefer having to go through a process in where movies or TV shows in 4K will have a limited set of controls for HE use.

If I did afford to get UHD Blu with the TV and some discs it would be very painful for me if I had spent a wheelbarrow full of cash only to find out that a certain number of years that if I am not going to be able to use my small UHD collection if the studios do not give out extra support after a uncertain amount of time. At this point; we the A/V enthusiasts and general consumers don't even know what length of time the studios are going to give us by way of providing UHD support if we get opportunities to play UHD Blu-rays in our home.

Such time wasting from their point of view is not giving any ounce of guarantees that it will be a long-term success. Therefore, In the lead-up to this launch, the studio executives along with The UHD-BD alliance must give initial timelines of support in terms for all UHD-BD movies & TV shows to show it's potential market of consumers in which the market itself will be very small. I feel that this is one necessary part of the process that needs to be given to them in order to provide a level of certainty and demand to make the format viable for mass market release.

To give a level of say 5 to 10 years for this format to survive will be considered too small for UHD-BD to take lift off to final launch. I would suggest to them that a support of at least 15 to 20 years could be do-able if it is able to last that length of time.

Another thing that is needed to be sorted out and finalised is the digital bridge mechanism. The studios and manufacturers have to prepare differing types of software needed to provide this service as it won't come to be implemented very quickly. That level of work has too much detail and finesse because it has to be catered for each type of UHD-BD player being sold on the market and that could be a tough job to implement.

Agreed, Dublin. If they DO do some sort of online authentication, it'd be nice to have a commitment that the titles will be supported for x amount of time, and that keys won't be revoked if a distributor loses the rights, for example. Though that's only really a problem for indie distributors, should they get into UHD BD, but I'd assume that they'd stick with the basic offline authentication (remember guys, there's two levels to it) and let region coding take care of the rest because maintaining an authentication server would be too much bother.

As for the digital bridge, I think that's what's holding up UHD BD at this point. When the BDA reps were questioned about 4K BD over the last few years they've kept banging on about how important other features were, so they're gonna make a big thing of this digital bridge and they're taking the time to nail it down.

[rdodolak]

Originally Posted by Geoff D

Agreed, Dublin. If they DO do some sort of online authentication, it'd be nice to have a commitment that the titles will be supported for x amount of time, and that keys won't be revoked if a distributor loses the rights, for example. Though that's only really a problem for indie distributors, should they get into UHD BD, but I'd assume that they'd stick with the basic offline authentication (remember guys, there's two levels to it) and let region coding take care of the rest because maintaining an authentication server would be too much bother.

As for the digital bridge, I think that's what's holding up UHD BD at this point. When the BDA reps were questioned about 4K BD over the last few years they've kept banging on about how important other features were, so they're gonna make a big thing of this digital bridge and they're taking the time to nail it down.

Here's a worse case scenario then just a distributor losing rights. We've already seen some instances with UV and/or digital copies where an individual purchased a UV or digital copy and then had it disappear from their account. The justification for this was that some cable or premium channel purchased exclusive rights to show it on television thus it was taken away from those that purchased it.

This argument is totally ridiculous but here we are. I can see not allowing any other channel to show that same movie (I.e. blackout) during that exclusive window as it would take potential viewers/subscribers away from said channel. But for those that already purchased the item? Those individuals weren't potential viewers/subscribers anyway.

It's plausible that a similar situation could happen with UHD and the key gets deleted until the exclusive window has closed.

Or what about a rights issue surfacing after a movie has been released?

One thing is for sure, studios will use this concept to also prevent you from viewing the title prior to the release day. You received a title in the mail early, no problem, but you just can't watch it until the release day comes to pass.

[Geoff D]

All valid points, but I'm not bummed about not being able to watch something until release day. I can't redeem UV codes that I get with my early US imports until the official release day, so perhaps it's good that I've dealt with that disappointment already.

[Anthony P]

Originally Posted by Geoff D

The leaked Sony documents show that there are two stages of AACS 2.0, a basic level and an enhanced one which requires the one-time authorisation. I could see it being implemented as basic for your run-of-the-mill catalogue title and enhanced for new releases.

1) the doc itself is a real mess. https://wikileaks.org/sony/docs/05/d..._2014.pptx.pdf

so it should be taken with a big grain of salt

2) this is an ACCS 2.0 doc not an UHD BD doc so the two are not necessarily the same (i.e. maybe ACCS 2.0 basic will be the only thing supported, or maybe it will only be ACCS 2.0 advanced....)

3) if you look at

and


Basic means the "title key" is on the disk, but for advanced where you need to go to the title key server in the second diagram
you see "time based release of title key". To me that appears to be for pre-releases purchases (i.e. the content disk/DL is there but useless until release day).

that can be a good thing for DL (purchase the film, DL the huge 4k file to the HDD and it is ready to watch on release date/time especially if the movie does not appear on your list to taunt you until release date/time)

but terrible for disks

a) purchase the film in store, bring it home, put the disk in the player with the kids to watch it just to get a black screen, an error message "no title key" or "you can only watch the film after date/time"

b) replication, this might be useful for pre-buys (i.e. the on-line store ships it a week early but you can only see it on release day) but a useless pain after the release date. (i.e. you buy the film on release day in the store, bring it home and you get server is busy and it takes for ever for it to start , something that has happened with BD-live which is why I disconnected my BD player)

And issues of disc 'ownership' aside, it seems to me like a great many people already have their player hooked up to the internet for whatever reasons, so it'll be a seamless process for such folks.

who cares

Put disc in, it reaches out to the server, key gets downloaded, disc plays thereafter.

or

Put disc in, it reaches out to the server, server is down for maintenance, server is busy, my internet connection is down..... disk dies not play.

why would any sane person want that crapshoot?

There is always the question of folks without internet access whatsoever, but I have a hard time believing that hardcore 4K gearheads with no internet connection will number a great many people.

immaterial

1) it is a terrible idea in principle (adds nothing to anyone but can cause terrible issues)

2) I have an internet connection at my home but none in my HT, it was built for watching films and not for anything else like surfing the net (or talking on phone or texting.... all RF is blocked from entering by design the only connection to the outside world is a visual door bell- light that goes on)

3) I like to bring films with me when I go on vacation and that most often then not means no internet there

The question of how the managed copy fits in with this is the more pressing issue IMO.

only if someone cares about it, personally I don't since I don't plan on using it, what I care about is watching the films I buy (imagine that)

[Anthony P]

Originally Posted by Geoff D

The hint is in the "one time" part of the authentication process re: the discs themselves Once the key is downloaded, then it should remain on that player in perpetuity.

not necessarily
1) what happens when your player's "memory" is full?
2) I have needed to replace SSDs and HDD's before, and what happens when there is corruption?

You'd need to do that with every other UHD player in the house -

yup

a process that could be as painless as putting the disc in and waiting a couple of minutes, and it's not like current discs load lightning quick anyway

I don't think it should be that long if everything goes well (how big can the key be?)


but you missed two important parts

1) what happens when things don't go well?

2) people purchase films to own them, If I buy X on release day and 20 years later I want to want it on my new TV and player will the title server still be there and will it have the title key for the release I bought 20 years ago on it?

I see molehills, others see mountains. Such is life.

it is not a matter of molehill or mountains? It is a simple question of pros and cons. your argument is the cons are not big (so you bought a film and can't watch it, who cares), maybe they are not but are there pros? Personally I don't see any real ones and so the rest don't matter.

[Anthony P]

Originally Posted by Geoff D

That's as may be, although I don't plan to live forever.

I think I heard someone saying the same thing about purchasing DDLs from target.

Look, folks need to realise that us being entrusted with such high-quality versions (not just pixel res but colour gamut, bit depth etc) of the studio's most prized assets is not going to come without some form of operational compromise on our behalf.

that is a mountain load of BS most pirated copies are extremely low quality, people that pirate do so because it is free and they don't care about quality. So the 4k copy is no more or less prized in that sense.

But the studios have become more and more concerned about protecting their content with every step of the home video journey

and this does nothing for protection.

[Geoff D]

Quite simply, I'll be able to live with it. Your milage may - and clearly does - vary.

[bailey1987]

I'm in too minds with it all, there is a way for it to work without it effecting anyone.

[Anthony P]

Originally Posted by Geoff D

Agreed, Dublin. If they DO do some sort of online authentication, it'd be nice to have a commitment that the titles will be supported for x amount of time, and that keys won't be revoked if a distributor loses the rights, for example.

that is the difference between you and me , If I can use something for x amount of time I call it a rental. I consider a purchase something I can use as long as I want to use it.

Though that's only really a problem for indie distributors, should they get into UHD BD, but I'd assume that they'd stick with the basic offline authentication (remember guys, there's two levels to it) and let region coding take care of the rest because maintaining an authentication server would be too much bother.

Maybe in the US but not here. The Quebec cinema act that was passed in the 80's makes for an interesting situation. In order to be a film distributor you either need a general distribution license (and for that you need to be "local" or a special distribution license ( you need to have been distributing pre-82 here and you can only distribute films you produced)
that means that a lot of the films that are distributed here are from what you would call indie, and for example Alliance used to have exclusive rights to distribute the LOTR films (I was discussing that last week in a different thread) and only after 2010 did those rights move to WB. You also have similar examples with what there is no way to describe as "indie", look at Gladiator http://www.imdb.com/title/tt0172495/companycredits it has been distributed by universal, Columbia TriStar, Paramount, Warner at different times and countries.

[octagon]

Originally Posted by Geoff D

That's as may be, although I don't plan to live forever.

Yup, to bastardize the famous Keynes quote - in the long run, everything I buy is in some sense a rental

[Geoff D]

Woah woah woah, enough with that philosophical shit. There's far more important things that people are worrying about in this thread.

[rdodolak]

Originally Posted by Geoff D

Though that's only really a problem for indie distributors, should they get into UHD BD, but I'd assume that they'd stick with the basic offline authentication (remember guys, there's two levels to it) and let region coding take care of the rest because maintaining an authentication server would be too much bother.

It's highly likely that UHD won't have region coding.

[Penton-Man]

Good debate.

[Penton-Man]

Originally Posted by Wendell R. Breland

This may have already been posted, if so, just skip over it.

Sony hack reveals AACS 2.0 Ultra HD Blu-ray copy protection details

Note: People won’t find this graph in any of the Sony documents which were hacked. These are approximate transfer function plots of standard dynamic range (BT. 709 8-bits 0.1 to 100 nits) vs. a 10-bit HDR (SMPTE ST. 2084) system representing 0.005 to 10,000 nits showing amongst other things, new code levels for the darker (deeper black) pixels (below 0.1 nits) of a 10-bit HDR system.

[raygendreau]

Originally Posted by Penton-Man

Note: People won’t find this graph in any of the Sony documents which were hacked. These are approximate transfer function plots of standard dynamic range (BT. 709 8-bits 0.1 to 100 nits) vs. a 10-bit HDR (SMPTE ST. 2084) system representing 0.005 to 10,000 nits showing amongst other things, new code levels for the darker (deeper black) pixels (below 0.1 nits) of a 10-bit HDR system.

Its 0.0005. That's OLED territory.

When Star Wars HDR shows up digital and UBD sometime in 2016, May The OLED be With You. Its the only way you will be able to see the Dark Side of The Force.

I doubt that Dolby Vision Cinema will bother anyone with 106.2 nit highlights, but the $5 ticket premium might.

[Penton-Man]

Originally Posted by raygendreau

Its 0.0005.

It’s not my fault if the person that did the caption on the graph added one too many zeroes.
Seriously, I thought I’d hit another 0 keystroke. Oh well, I guess mankind is lucky I don’t deal in radioactive substances.

[raygendreau]

The "95 %" line up in 2014 to view the LG UHD OLEDs. Watch the soundbites at the end for comments from the first 65" and 77" buyers.

FIRST US CONSUMERS PURCHASE ULTRA HD 4K OLED TVs - YouTube

[Dynamo of Eternia]

Originally Posted by Geoff D

Agreed, Dublin. If they DO do some sort of online authentication, it'd be nice to have a commitment that the titles will be supported for x amount of time, and that keys won't be revoked if a distributor loses the rights, for example.

But that is a catch-22. If there is online authentication and they make and announce such a commitment, it will be perceived by many to be an expiration date. Even if their intent is to support it until at least that date, but possibly well beyond it if the format does well enough, it will still be looked upon negatively.

It's the irony of anything that requires online authentication. Most of those who have completely and happily embraced digital distribution and/or anything that requires online authentication in some way, shape, or form do so foolishly believing that what they are "buying" will truly be theirs "forever." Meaning that they assume that the ability to re authenticate when needed will be there for the rest of their lives. Many of those people will be in for a rude awakening sooner or later. And most of them probably wouldn't have bought into it if a specified support date that could potentially double as an expiration date was specified from the get go.

Heck, if anything I wish the studios would start doing that (giving specific dates). It would wake more people up to the problems with digital distribution/ online authentication, rather than them naively assuming permanent ownership. Frankly I think it should be illegal for studios to even advertise the transaction of paying for a digital movie as "buying" it, as it is often referred to in commercials advertising a movie available for download. They should be forced to say something like "License it today" instead of "Buy it today." Let the terminology speak for itself.

I'm interested in the additional quality that 4k BD will provide, but only if it allows me the same simple freedom that I already have with DVD and Blu-Ray now. It's not worth it for me to upgrade my movies to a new format that does anything less than that.