8K discussion thread

[Geoff D]

Oh god he's still pushing that "8K disc format should arrive in 2020-whatever" nonsense.

8K content will be with us soon enough. But there will be no 8K disc.

[sapiendut]

I’m one of those people who loves physical media. But I don’t delude myself thinking that there will be 8K media. 4K is the last one.

[HDTV1080P]

Originally Posted by sapiendut

I’m one of those people who loves physical media. But I don’t delude myself thinking that there will be 8K media. 4K is the last one.

Consumers will have to wait and see what happens around 2026 or 2028 at the latest, if 2028 goes by and no 8K optical disc format then I would agree with you. It would mean that 8K streaming won the format war and it would mean high bit rate 8K streaming would have better quality when compared to 4K Blu-ray.

For videophiles and audiophiles to start buying 8K streaming movies from VUDU, and Amazon around the year 2026, then 8K downloads and 8K streaming content needs to offer high bit rate lossy video with true lossless surround sound. Netflix, VUDU, and Amazon streaming needs to offer lossless audio or consumers are going to stick with 4K Blu-ray. But if we do see 8K streaming with lossless audio and no 8K optical disc format, then many consumers will dump physical media.

The main reason people buy and rent 4K Blu-ray discs is because it offers the absolute best reference quality video and audio (Minimum of 150Mbps Internet connection required to stream 4K Blu-ray).If one day streaming becomes better quality then physical media, then consumers will buy and rent 8K movies from VUDU, Amazon, and Netflix instead.

[sapiendut]

Not necessarily true. Higher resolution does not mean better quality. Higher resolution means just that… higher resolution.

[nick4Knight]

I just don't see the argument. Nothing to back it up is being elaborated on. I wish there was some explaining where the content is coming from for this "8K streaming to win the format war" concept...?!

If Hollywood movies and TV series are not mastered in 8K then all that is going to be streaming on 8K is rare events like certain sporting. Perhaps as much as formula one, tennis, olympics and world cup. Along with nature documentaries. And "demo" files and Youtube content that is already able to be uploaded in 8K. But it's still subject to youtube compression. That is simply not enough content for people to be having anyone proclaiming 8K "won" or is surpassing physical media standards even if its 4K only on there.

All the other content you'd play on an 8K displays, as literally today, will be upscaled. We'd need to be seeing HOLLYWOOD talking about 8K deliverables (streaming) and they just aren't. There is no noise from the industry that would indicate a push for this phantom content you're talking about will be here in 4-6 years from now.

[Anthony P]

Originally Posted by HDTV1080P

So if the average speed is under 256Mbps, it is because consumers are not choosing to pay for the higher Internet plans like 1,000Mbps and above.

agree

So those statistics should be looking at what is the highest speed the Internet provider offers in the service area, and should not be looking at what the person subscribes too

I think what is the top speed available in an area has value in some discussions, but don't forget this discussion started with me laughing at an article that extold the virtues of WIFI7 on cloud gaming and streaming. and you wanting to defend it. How does someons else having 10Gbps connection change that Joe is only willing to pay for 50Mbps?

Wired Internet is the King of speed, reliability, and security.

agree

Problem with WI FI 5 and 6 is that most people get around 246Mbps and sometimes up to 490Mbps per stream

agree that is a problem if you have 10Gbps internet connection but that was the point for the vast majority of people WIFI5 or 6 or 7 don't actualy make a difference because even a bad 5 connection has more BW then their ISP provides them (either because the ISP does not offer better or most cases the person does not want to pay more a month for a better connection.


And even if you have 10Gbps from the ISP and it is wired so you can get your 10Gbps to your devices no cloud gaming provider or streaming provider offers such connection to their service.

[Anthony P]

Originally Posted by HDTV1080P

There is a 10 year cycle for resolution improvements. That 10 year cycle should hold. In 1997 the 720 x 480i DVD format launched, 9 years later in 2006 the 1920 x 1080P Blu-ray format launched (2010 for Blu-ray 3D that uses same 1080P resolution as regular Blu-ray). Then exactly 10 years later in the year 2016 the 3840 x 2160P 4K Blu-ray format launched. Therefore, if the 10 year cycle holds 8K streaming should arrive between the years 2023-2026, then a new 8K optical disc format sometime between the years 2026-2028.

Originally Posted by Geoff D

Oh god he's still pushing that "8K disc format should arrive in 2020-whatever" nonsense.

8K content will be with us soon enough. But there will be no 8K disc.

Originally Posted by sapiendut

I’m one of those people who loves physical media. But I don’t delude myself thinking that there will be 8K media. 4K is the last one.

I don't know if there will be an 8k (or next gen) physical format and if there is what it will look like . For me the biggest issue with the "analysis" is that it is too simplistic. yes DVd was around 10 years old before BD and BD around 10 years old before UHD BD but SD existed well before DVD and HD before BD. And the problem with 4K is we have had UHDBD for a few years now, but OA , cable, fiber TV have barely started offering 4k (and that is generous on my part), K offers good 4k but is there anyone else that streams or DL none bit starved 4k that barely qualifies as HD? 4K is not well enough established IMHO for us to assume the industry is ready to move on to 8k.

[HDTV1080P]

Originally Posted by nick4Knight

I just don't see the argument. Nothing to back it up is being elaborated on. I wish there was some explaining where the content is coming from for this "8K streaming to win the format war" concept...?!

If Hollywood movies and TV series are not mastered in 8K then all that is going to be streaming on 8K is rare events like certain sporting. Perhaps as much as formula one, tennis, olympics and world cup. Along with nature documentaries. And "demo" files and Youtube content that is already able to be uploaded in 8K. But it's still subject to youtube compression. That is simply not enough content for people to be having anyone proclaiming 8K "won" or is surpassing physical media standards even if its 4K only on there.

All the other content you'd play on an 8K displays, as literally today, will be upscaled. We'd need to be seeing HOLLYWOOD talking about 8K deliverables (streaming) and they just aren't. There is no noise from the industry that would indicate a push for this phantom content you're talking about will be here in 4-6 years from now.

There are classic movies from 1939 that have a 8K scan and restoration of the original negative (Wizard of Oz and Gone with the Wind). Plus many other movies from the early to late 20th century that have 8K scans of the original 35mm, 65mm, and 70mm negative. So Hollywood already has 8K masters in their vaults. Also more movies and TV series will use 8K and 16K digital cameras in the future. A company like Netflix would be ideal to offer native 8K TV series sometime in the future around 2026 with 8K streams using either lossy audio or lossless audio.

[Geoff D]

Originally Posted by HDTV1080P

There are classic movies from 1939 that have a 8K scan and restoration of the original negative (Wizard of Oz and Gone with the Wind). Plus many other movies from the early to late 20th century that have 8K scans of the original 35mm, 65mm, and 70mm negative. So Hollywood already has 8K masters in their vaults. Also more movies and TV series will use 8K and 16K digital cameras in the future. A company like Netflix would be ideal to offer native 8K TV series sometime in the future around 2026 with 8K streams using either lossy audio or lossless audio.

Oz and GWTW were SCANNED in 8K but not FINISHED in 8K, their restorations were done at 4K. Same with Lawrence of Arabia, 8K scan for a 4K finish, though the raw 8K scans were archived.

Hollywood has some "8K masters in their vaults" like 2001:ASO and My Fair Lady which were done in 8K for Japanese 8K TV broadcast, but that's about it. There is zero benefit for finishing 4-perf 35mm out to 8K (not without some kind of temporal upsampling like the Lowry process which just adds to the expense) and there are so few large format movies - never mind the ones that have actually been remastered in 8K - that 8K is simply not going to be a "legacy" format. It'll be new content that drives it.

BTW Netflix has already done 6K content (several years ago, in fact) so 8K is the next logical step and it'll happen well before 2026, you're obsessed with this 10-year-cycle.

[HDTV1080P]

Originally Posted by Geoff D

BTW Netflix has already done 6K content (several years ago, in fact) so 8K is the next logical step and it'll happen well before 2026, you're obsessed with this 10-year-cycle.

Yes I have mentioned that a streaming provider like Netflix or VUDU could offer 8K streams starting as early as 2023 then maybe a 8K optical disc format around 2026. We are already seeing the 10 year cycle happen with all these new 8K flat panels, 8K e-shift simulated projectors, and 8K A/V receivers, plus 8K streaming on Youtube. So rather you like it or not the 10 year cycle is becoming a reality. Now all that needs to occur is 8K movie streaming around 2023-2026 and an 8K optical disc format around 2026-2028 for both old and new movies and TV series that is mastered in 8K. Just like everything is currently not offered in 4K in the future a even smaller amount of material at first will be offered in 8K. Consumers might also see around the year 2026 a 8K Roku Ultra, 8K optical disc player, 8K satellite receiver, and 8K cable box to connect to the existing 8K displays and 8K A/V receivers on the market. Hopefully a new version of HDCP will not be required for 8K and maybe the industry will use the existing HDCP 2.2 and higher for external 8K HDMI devices. But if the movie studios want better HDCP security on the HDMI port they could go to a new version called something like HDCP 3.2 or 4.2 or what every name they would need to use for 8K equipment. Consumers will get a better understanding regarding what is occurring once native 8K content starts appearing on the market from streaming, optical disc, ATSC 3.0,satellite, and cable TV. The 10 year cycle for new and improved resolutions every 10 years is a reality that will happen around the year 2026 unless some major event in the world like a major chip shortage or other event puts a stop to the 10 year cycle or slows down the 10 year cycle.

The average consumer upgrades their main home theater room every 8 to 10 years and knowledge consumers are aware of the 10 year cycle that started occurring in 1997. Some consumers might start upgrading at the beginning of the 10 year cycle around the year 2026 while other consumers might upgrade in the middle of the 10 year cycle which would be around the year 2031. Others might upgrade at the end of the 10 year cycle before native 16K content appears around the year 2036.

Hopefully the new native 8K external boxes will downscale to 4K, 1080P, 1080i, 720P, 480P, and 480i for older equipment. All 4K Blu-ray players made since 2016 downscale to lower resolutions for older equipment. But items like 4K streaming boxes and 4K satellite receivers do not downscale 4K material to 1080P or lower. So, the BDA is ahead of in this area with all 4K Blu-ray players being able to downscale to any 15 year old display with a HDMI input. If we get a 8K optical disc format it will also need to have the ability to downscale to 4K, 1080P, 1080i, 720P, 480P, and 480i.

[JohnAV]

Originally Posted by HDTV1080P

Wired Internet is the King of speed, reliability, and security. Problem with WI FI 5 and 6 is that most people get around 246Mbps and sometimes up to 490Mbps per stream where as wired Internet gives people the full 946Mbps with 1Gbps Internet or around the full 9,400Mbps on a 10Gbps Internet connection. If one cannot get the full 1,000Mbps speed over wireless, they might be limited to 490Mbps. Therefore if they are the only person in the house or condo 1,000Mbps Internet is not that useful. My point is if one is on a 100% wireless home network and they are only able to get between 246Mbps to 490Mbps over WI-FI 6 or 5, then it is a waste of money to have one computer with WIFI. However if there was several people in the house using WIFI at once with each computer connected between 246Mbps to 490Mbps to the access point, then WI FI makes sense with a 1,000Mbps or higher service plan. The problem with WI FI is that from a single PC people are limited at 490Mbps per each stream, where as wired Internet one gets the full 946Mbps with a 1Gbps Internet plan. Maybe WI FI 7 when released in the future might fix this issue and have download and upload streams of at least 600Mbps to 1,000Mbps per each stream. But one will have to wait and see. I am not a fan of WIFI and that is why I am on a 100% wired connection.

A good AX 5ghz 80 Mhz connection from a WiFi6 router can easily approx 1 Gbps. I can alway look at every device and see what the link rate is. Not like I see any big difference when doing speed tests WiFi versus ethernet. A good Router can utilize 4x4 MU-MIMO to simultaneously transmit to several devices consuming your limited ISP bandwidth. Most of the streams are in the double digits, not three or four digits. Yes we can tell you are overly focused on whats really unnecessary ISP speeds.

[HDTV1080P]

Originally Posted by JohnAV

A good AX 5ghz 80 Mhz connection from a WiFi6 router can easily approx 1 Gbps. I can alway look at every device and see what the link rate is. Not like I see any big difference when doing speed tests WiFi versus ethernet. A good Router can utilize 4x4 MU-MIMO to simultaneously transmit to several devices consuming your limited ISP bandwidth. Most of the streams are in the double digits.

WI-FI 6e and WI-FI 5 devices can handshake at 1,300Mbps between the wireless device and the wireless access point (but that handshake speed is not accurate under real world conditions). When doing a actual Internet speed test many people are not able to get any faster speed then 490Mbps using WI-FI and doing the same speed test on a wired connection offers around 940Mbps. So WI-FI needs to improve in order to offer 1,000Mbps per each RF channel and one day maybe 10,000Mbps per each RF channel.

Doing a Internet speed test shows the poor performance of WI-FI. Instead of getting the full 940Mbps upload/download that wired offers, one gets 246Mbps or up to 490Mbps when a few feet from the wireless access point even though the wireless handshake claims 1,300Mbps. On wired Ethernet when the handshake is at 1,000Mbps on the home network the Internet speed is around 940Mbps.

So I hope WI-FI version 7 improves on the speed of each RF channel stream. In am glad I am on a 100% wired home network. Other people with older homes that do not want to remodel for wired ethernet need to use some wireless WI-FI.

[JohnAV]

Originally Posted by HDTV1080P

Doing a Internet speed test shows the poor performance of WI-FI. Instead of getting the full 940Mbps upload/download, one gets 246Mbps or up to 490Mbps when a few feet from the access point even though the wireless handshake claims 1,300Mbps. On wired Ethernet when the handshake is at 1,000Mbps on the home network the Internet speed is around 940Mbps.
So I hope WI-FI version 7 improves on the speed of each RF channel stream.

Then are using really lousy gear. (a few feet from the access point). I got a router that has good signal way pass many walls across the street that I have to decrease the transmitter by 50%.

[HDTV1080P]

Originally Posted by JohnAV

Then are using really lousy gear. (a few feet from the access point). I got a router that has good signal way pass many wall across the street that I have to decrease the transmitter by 50%.

I do not use WI-FI but I know people that use very expensive Cisco access points that are either WI-FI version 6 or 5 and they cannot get anymore then 490Mbps per each RF stream download when no one else is using the Internet. Now if 10 people are using the Internet at once then while doing a speed test all 10 devices show 490Mbps and using around 5,000Mbps on a 10,000Mbps connection. Where as wired would have access to the full 10,000Mbps on a wired connection during the Internet speed test.

But I can not verify the above results since my building and location is limited to 100% wired with the ISP only being able to offer 100Mbps upload and 1,000Mbps download.

[JohnAV]

Originally Posted by HDTV1080P

I do not use WI-FI but I know people that use very expensive Cisco access points that are either WI-FI version 6 or 5 and they cannot get anymore then 490Mbps per each RF stream download when no one else is using the Internet. Now if 10 people are using the Internet at once then while doing a speed test all 10 devices show 490Mbps and using around 5,000Mbps on a 10,000Mbps connection.

But I can not verify the above results since my buildign and locations is limited to 100% wired with the ISP only being able to offer 100Mbps upload and 1,000Mbps download.

There's the point, you do not use what you are arguing against. Who uses Cisco enterprise access points for a home? Why do you continue to hype extreme speeds for normal usage? Normally there is hardly anything out there that requires extreme speed with downloads? Do you use a computers capable of watching multiple 4K HDR videos at the same time that you gauge how computer performance is impacted by wifi connection link rate? I do see performance with 8K HDR YouTube more challenging. Not really using the best codecs yet.

However all these sales pitches concerning how many devices you use in a house versus your ISP connection speed is unrealistic. They just want you to sign up for speed you don't need.

[HDTV1080P]

It is nice to have choices of upload/download speeds of 10,000Mbps, 6,000Mbps, 2,000Mbps, and 1,000Mbps for the home. Some people need that speed for uploading and downloading 16TB worth of data files. My point is even the absolute best WI-FI access points with 10,000Mbps Ethernet jacks (most are 5,000Mbps ethernet) that cost several thousands of dollars do not have as good of performance as CAT8 or CAT6A wired ethernet over a 10,000Mbps home network. Each connected device with a 10GB ethernet jack has full access to 10,000Mbps upload and download Internet. Slower devices like the 2016 OPPO UDP-203 makes a 1,000Mbps ethernet connection. But with the performance of WI-FI the connected device is limited to 490Mbps because the RF channel and modulation being used lacks in performance. Now a large family or business that uses a lot of handheld tablet PC’s that require WI-FI, might have several wireless access points that are ceiling mounted that plug into the CAT8 wiring coming out of the ceiling using POE to power the access point. So a large office building or home might have dozens of ceiling mounted access points with each access point using a 10,000Mbps ethernet connection or 5,000Mbps ethernet connection. Then 20 devices that are limited to 490Mbps per RF upload/download stream would use around 9,8000Mbps on the 10,000Mbps Internet account from the ISP that offers 10GB Internet.

The Jupiter AP45 ceiling mounted wireless access point that has a 5,000Mbps Ethernet jack uses the latest WI-FI 6e technology. It is suppose to be one of the better access points on the market when one has a existing 100% wired home or office network if they want to use wireless.
https://www.juniper.net/content/dam/...oints/ap45.pdf

New Cisco 9136 series has 5,000Mbps ethernet with WI-FI 6e technology
https://www.cisco.com/c/en/us/produc...-ds-cte-en.pdf

Since more consumers are getting 10,000Mbps ethernet home networks with 10,000Mbps Internet, there is a lot more access points that have 10GB (10,000Mbps) ethernet jacks now. The Lanner LWR-X8460 has a 10GB ethernet jack with WI-FI 6e using 12 separate streams.
https://www.lanner-america.com/product/lwr-x8460/

[JohnAV]

Originally Posted by HDTV1080P

It is nice to have choices of upload/download speeds of 10,000Mbps, 6,000Mbps, 2,000Mbps, and 1,000Mbps for the home. Some people need that speed for uploading and downloading 16TB worth of data files. My point is even the absolute best WI-FI access points with 10,000Mbps Ethernet jacks (most are 5,000Mbps ethernet) that cost several thousands of dollars do not have as good of performance as CAT8 or CAT6A wired ethernet over a 10,000Mbps home network. Each connected device with a 10GB ethernet jack has full access to 10,000Mbps upload and download Internet. Slower devices like the 2016 OPPO UDP-203 makes a 1,000Mbps ethernet connection. But with the performance of WI-FI the connected device is limited to 490Mbps because the RF channel and modulation being used lacks in performance. Now a large family or business that uses a lot of handheld tablet PC’s that require WI-FI, might have several wireless access points that are ceiling mounted that plug into the CAT8 wiring coming out of the ceiling using POE to power the access point. So a large office building or home might have dozens of ceiling mounted access points with each access point using a 10,000Mbps ethernet connection or 5,000Mbps ethernet connection. Then 20 devices that are limited to 490Mbps per RF upload/download stream would use around 9,8000Mbps on the 10,000Mbps Internet account from the ISP that offers 10GB Internet.

The Jupiter AP45 ceiling mounted wireless access point that has a 5,000Mbps Ethernet jack uses the latest WI-FI 6e technology. It is suppose to be one of the better access points on the market when one has a existing 100% wired home or office network if they want to use wireless.
https://www.juniper.net/content/dam/...oints/ap45.pdf

New Cisco 9136 series has 5,000Mbps ethernet with WI-FI 6e technology
https://www.cisco.com/c/en/us/produc...-ds-cte-en.pdf

Since more consumers are getting 10,000Mbps ethernet home networks with 10,000Mbps Internet, there is a lot more access points that have 10GB (10,000Mbps) ethernet jacks now. The Lanner LWR-X8460 has a 10GB ethernet jack with WI-FI 6e using 12 separate streams.
https://www.lanner-america.com/product/lwr-x8460/

How many homes require dozens of ceiling based access points compared to a large office building? Kinda a very flawed argument on the amount of gear necessarily to provide decent WiFI coverage.

[JohnAV]

8K Update: What’s Next for the Budding TV System? - Sound&Vision 2/10

15 Minutes with Chris Chinnock, Executive Director, 8K Association

From page 2

S&V: When do you think we’ll see 8K content from a major streaming service? And who do you think will lead the way with 8K streaming?
Chinnock: It’s hard to predict, but we will need a decent installed base of 8K TVs, which could happen by 2024. Any major streaming service needs to see a value proposition in offering 8K so we need to show them that there is a visible difference between 2K, 4K, and 8K. They also need to know that the infrastructure for delivering 8K content at reasonable bandwidths is there and that consumers have the capacity to receive the content. Finally, streaming services need to start capturing content in ways that facilitate it being finished in 8K, which ties into another 8KA project for this year — writing guidelines for content capture to enable 8K mastering.

S&V: How big a role will gaming play in the adoption of 8K? And where do things stand today when it comes to 8K and the gaming community?
Chinnock: We think gaming will play an important role in the adoption of 8K. Many games are developed in very high resolution so they can then be authored in 4K or 8K versions. There will be visible differences between these versions, especially in the textures. Then there is game play where higher resolution is obtained through the graphics card (or TV) upscaling lower resolution games to 8K. Upscaled 4K will look better than 4K but not as good as native 8K.

While PlayStation 5 and Xbox X are supposed to support 8K output, they have not yet been upgraded to do so, which makes PC gaming with a high-end graphics card the best 8K gaming solution today. Then there’s the trend toward 4K/120 fps (frames per second), which sort of runs counter to the 8K trend. 4K/120 is more important for games where fast response is needed, like first-person shooter games. Running 8K at high frame rates taxes the best graphics cards, but here again, it is only a matter of time before the technology improves and brings this capability more downstream.

[nick4Knight]

Okay but did we really think an executive member of the 8K association was going to play down the likelihood of content on the 8K format? Really... This is hardly the evidence we need to see movement on the claims of certain elements in this board.

Let's see mainstream studios indicate anything at all for even a digital/streaming 8K format. Which, again I believe one is coming in time. But that it will be 4K (more toward lossless video) spec, still, primarily. An improvement over physical media... And an extension of this would have 8K (optional) in that system. For special cases where a native master existed. Which would be very few/niche content like sport, documentaries.

Again, beating a dead horse but theres wish fulfillment and then theres taking the piss

[JohnAV]

Originally Posted by nick4Knight

Okay but did we really think an executive member of the 8K association was going to play down the likelihood of content on the 8K format? Really... This is hardly the evidence we need to see movement on the claims of certain elements in this board.

Let's see mainstream studios indicate anything at all for even a digital/streaming 8K format. Which, again I believe one is coming in time. But that it will be 4K (more toward lossless video) spec, still, primarily. An improvement over physical media... And an extension of this would have 8K (optional) in that system. For special cases where a native master existed. Which would be very few/niche content like sport, documentaries.

Again, beating a dead horse but theres wish fulfillment and then theres taking the piss

The 8K industry doesn't really have a good foundation to market with. The lack of content is ever present. NHK thinking they could usher Japan as a leader in the technology world ran into obvious technology walls they need to climb. One of the earliest indicators was 8K cameras. I remember us getting excited about this Sharp Micro Four Thirds sensor camera back in CES 2019.

World’s First Affordable 8K Video Camera? — Sharp 8K Micro Four Thirds - YouTube

Well the first prosumer 8K camera with a Micro Four Thirds mount and a 5-inch articulated touchscreen never materialized. So all the content that could have been added online never happen except with people carrying those huge/heavy RED 8K cameras.

So aside from Samsung, LG, Sony and other brands pushing AI upscaling 8K TVs, this industry is a mess. Thank god the studios are recording some content as 8K or near 8K. Youtube doesn't have a good codec to use for longer 8K HDR content that you could watch on computers or TVs capable of playing that content.

I really don't want to hear that multi GB ISP with 10GB Ethernet in a home is worthwhile. I am just happy that we are slowly expanding the amount of 4K content, then this race to appease NHK that 8K is their savor.