8K discussion thread

[Geoff D]

Originally Posted by Lee A Stewart

As always, collectors represent a tiny fraction of the total marketplace. When your goal is to sell millions of a specific model, do you really believe there are that many 3D collectors who will spend the big bucks to buy one? Remember, your 3D BDs are only going to be upscaled. How will that affect the 3D PQ?

I can tell you exactly how it affects it: it doesn't affect it any more or less than upscaling 2D Blu-ray. By all means tell people they're dreaming if they think 3D is coming back any decade soon, but making them fret about the upscaling of it is a rather odd segue.

[Anthony P]

Originally Posted by Geoff D

it'd take too much money to create in a world where disc is yesterdays news. Even during disc's heyday there's a reason why studios and manufacturers alike collaborated on making the format(s) a reality, it's too expensive for one entity to enter into.

that is not at all true

- analogue
Beta was Sony,
VHS was JVC,
LD was Philips, MCA Inc., Pioneer
CED was RCA

- digital
VCD Sony, Phiilips

- HD
WMV DVD-MS
D-theatre JVC

and those are the ones that I can come up with off the top of my head related to movie/TV content.

the benefit of by-comity is not sharing the cost as you state but getting everyone to buy in and start off with support.

the negative is that you end up with bloatware (do you need Dolby and DTS audio do you need different HDR schemas , do you need more then one menu option....)

The disastrous HD format war saw them take sides, sure, but Toshiba never recovered as a serious player in the AV game after that debacle and that's partly what made the relevant parties so hesitant to get into 4K disc in the first place.

The DVD format, and at the time it was a good thing, used Toshibas .6mm data layer (i.e. CDs where 1.2mm thick and the data layer was just above the label and DVD was in the middle) that meant there was less plastic to interfere with the data reading and the data could be placed more tightly together. Toshiba got rich on that patent and when the world was moving to HD tech reached the point where the data layer could be at .1mm (which is why BD could hold 66% more data). Toshiba did not want to give up their cash cow on the 0.6mm patent.

Toshiba spent a lot of money trying to push/ keep HD DVD afloat and even though DVDs are still being produced, when HD media showed up DVD forum had to lower their licensing fees to be more competitive with better and newer formats.

But studios (after all isn't content why we buy these toys)

BD had exclusivly Sony, Disney, Fox, MGM.
HD-DVD had Universal
and WB and Paramount * released on both media


the format war existed on forums with a lot of misinformation from so called insiders there to push their agenda more than reality.

* After a while Toshiba had paid Paramount big bucks to drop BD but with those big extra expenses and that it made no difference in sales figures Toshiba soon after was forced to throw in the towel and brake that contract so there was a few months and a handful of Paramount titles that were HD-DVD exclusive for a very brief time.

[Geoff D]

That’s why I said “during DISC’S heyday” it needed collaborations e.g. the 26-company-strong BDA behind the commercialisation of Blu-ray, I’m not interested in every physical format ever (so your history lesson was wasted on me) as that has no bearing on the state of play re: physical media in 2023, the précis of which is that it’s dying on its arse as a mass-market medium. There is no will from anyone to create 8K disc, it really is that simple.

[mrtickleuk]

Originally Posted by Ruined

Samsung actually streamed Das Boot in 8K to consumers who bought their 8K TVs. So yeah, there is some streaming content.

Well, there is one streaming content.

[Robert Zohn]

@Anthony P, very good ^^^ (3-up from here) and informative post that is mostly all true.

I was very active in the HD-DVD vs. BD standard for the premium disc format battle.

[Anthony P]

Originally Posted by Geoff D

(so your history lesson was wasted on me)

I don't doubt that isn't there a quote on people like that?

[LexInHD]

Originally Posted by mrtickleuk

Well, there is one streaming content.

Asia has a smidge of 8K streaming drama and visual demo content, for exploratory purposes/bragging rights and whatnot. That market has very much gone all-in on 4K, because it fits perfectly with the broadcast/streaming infrastructure, and they seem to be the only ones really interested in pushing forward with 8K at this time. Oddly, the AE (p0rn) industry - which was a barometer for HD and 4K adoption - is currently dabbling in 6K, for no apparent reason, with most of the business settling on 4K, for the obvious reason of market standardization and demand. For them, 8K seems to only be used for VR/HMD niche content, but that could change, with the next generation of video/still cameras about to be released.

[HDTV1080P]

When it comes to desktop computers, native 8K computer monitors well be the next big thing. There are now many high-end graphics cards being made from NVIDIA and AMD with native 8K resolution support starting at around $279 through $3,000+. For around $549 one can buy a nice NVIDIA 8K graphics card using the Geforce RTX 4070 chipset that supports up to four separate 8K monitors used at once for professional stock traders, video editors, and any other application that needs 8K video. By the year 2026 there should be a wide selection of 8K computer monitors for consumers to use with a new 8K optical disc format or 8K Netflix, 8K Amazon, or 8K VUDU streaming using a desktop computer and later a Laptop/Notebook computer.

https://www.videocardbenchmark.net/high_end_gpus.html

[apollo828]

Originally Posted by LexInHD

For them, 8K seems to only be used for VR/HMD niche content, but that could change, with the next generation of video/still cameras about to be released.

It's baffling that some companies are bothering with 8K. Most people don't even bother with true 4K content for various reasons (Netflix charging extra, a premium for optical media when Blu-ray or *shudder* DVD suits them fine, etc). I'd argue that even fewer could tell a difference without a massive screen. Now we're supposed to leapfrog to a format that requires even more specialized cameras, more render time on server farms (AFAIK, 2K is still somewhat common for DIs, although I know this is slowly changing for productions with adequate budgets), even more expensive gear for broadcasting, and makes zero sense for small-to-mid-sized displays, much less portable devices? (Funny how Macbooks, even the pro ones, haven't made the full 4K leap yet and still sell like hotcakes.) Somebody out there must have *ahem* a wonderful pharmacist who visits them regularly.

[HeavyHitter]

Originally Posted by Geoff D

Heck, even the cognoscenti can't see shit compression when it's staring them in the face so what difference would it make?

This is so true. A well known calibrator/insider made a comment over at AVS that streaming is as good as disc for PQ. Major f'ing facepalm moment.

[Geoff D]

Originally Posted by HeavyHitter

This is so true. A well known calibrator/insider made a comment over at AVS that streaming is as good as disc for PQ. Major f'ing facepalm moment.

Exactly my point. Slightly different note, but there was some dude in the Ghostbusters UHD thread on here whinging that the fookin iTunes 4K stream looked terrible, as if that had any bearing on the disc, and when challenged he said he was a video professional who works in the field!

We shouldn't react with such incredulity though, as even amongst those who are considered to be "professionals" in this area of expertise the disc collector type is rare. (But even those who do collect disc often have a blind spot when it comes to assessing picture quality anyway e.g. "it's good enough for me!", so either way we're of a rare type indeed.)

[Anthony P]

Originally Posted by LexInHD

Oddly, the AE (p0rn) industry - which was a barometer for HD and 4K adoption - is currently dabbling in 6K, for no apparent reason

lol. I remember when a porn studio decided to go with HD DVD all the fanboys decided it was the f end of BD because where the porn industry goes everything goes. I never understood why some see so much "importance" in what the porn industry is doing.

[LexInHD]

Originally Posted by Anthony P

lol. I remember when a porn studio decided to go with HD DVD all the fanboys decided it was the f end of BD because where the porn industry goes everything goes. I never understood why some see so much "importance" in what the porn industry is doing.

You don't remember it correctly. Every single name in the industry was lined up for Blu-Ray and eager to release content on that format, with no interest in HD-DVD or Microsoft's earlier failed WMV-HD on DVD format. Sony pulled every string and trick they could - via the BDA affiliations - to keep the AE studios from contracting with the big names in authoring and replication. They had no choice but to briefly go with HD-DVD, until new and independent companies outside of the US, with no ties to the BDA or Sony, got their hands on authoring software and replicators to take on the work. The AE industry was able to jump on DVD because it was a very accessible format, with tons of authoring and replicator businesses - DVD had a good range of replicator hardware, while it's successor formats did not - forming all over the world and no real oversight from the DVD group, which is something the BDA wanted to actively avoid, to protect the format branding and it's royalties.

As for why the porn industry was important, it's because they were and have been a barometer for what future video formats would be adopted by consumers. They went all-in on VHS before major studios did, went all-in on digital content in the earliest days of the Internet, went all-in on DVD when the format was in it's earliest days and Hollywood studio releases were minimal, went all-in on DV/HD/FHD/UHD/VR content production before other entertainment industry segments did, and went all-in on streaming and digital downloads before the mainstream entertainment companies did.

[Anthony P]

Originally Posted by HeavyHitter

This is so true. A well known calibrator/insider made a comment over at AVS that streaming is as good as disc for PQ. Major f'ing facepalm moment.

the issue is that not everyone cares for the same things. One day when we happened to be watching something OTA together (and is was particularly bad reception of NTSC) I said something like "this crappy image is so frustrating" to which he replied something like "I don't see any problems, it looks good to me" and I was getting more and more frustrated as the conversation went on and got up went to the TV started pointing out all the snow with "you don't see that, and that , and that..." so he finally replied " I see that but I also see the guy that is talking and that is enough for me"


I don't have an issue saying I like my crappy old car because it still gets good mileage and still gets me from A to B which is all I care for but I get the feeling that some people need to pretend there is no difference because then they don't have to admit they are not looking for the best.

[Anthony P]

Originally Posted by LexInHD

You don't remember it correctly. Every single name in the industry was lined up for Blu-Ray and eager to release content on that format, with no interest in HD-DVD or Microsoft's earlier failed WMV-HD on DVD format. Sony pulled every string and trick they could - via the BDA affiliations - to keep the AE studios from contracting with the big names in authoring and replication. They had no choice but to briefly go with HD-DVD, until new and independent companies outside of the US, with no ties to the BDA or Sony, got their hands on authoring software and replicators to take on the work. The AE industry was able to jump on DVD because it was a very accessible format, with tons of authoring and replicator businesses - DVD had a good range of replicator hardware, while it's successor formats did not - forming all over the world and no real oversight from the DVD group, which is something the BDA wanted to actively avoid, to protect the format branding and it's royalties.

As for why the porn industry was important, it's because they were and have been a barometer for what future video formats would be adopted by consumers. They went all-in on VHS before major studios did, went all-in on digital content in the earliest days of the Internet, went all-in on DVD when the format was in it's earliest days and Hollywood studio releases were minimal, went all-in on DV/HD/FHD/UHD/VR content production before other entertainment industry segments did, and went all-in on streaming and digital downloads before the mainstream entertainment companies did.

I don't work for the porn industry and never did. if you are correct and they had to go with HD DVD because they where locked out of BD replication because all of available spce was used for films or you are wrong and they just decided to go with HD DVD because for some other reason they liked it better is immaterial
1) for that "brief period of time" (aka as long as HFD-DVD was around) that was the direction that was taken and it was the losing side
2) All the HD DVD fan boys tried to play it as the entertainment industry always follows porn industry and so BD was doomed.


as for the rest that is just you deciding on what fits the scenario and blocking everything else. For example there was porn released on other then just VHS at the time , but LD/CED could not be recorded so many consumers did not feel like having to buy two pieces of equipment just to watch something. and from a film point of view Beta launched with tapes that could only do 1h (L-500) soon they added l-750 tapes that could do 1.5h eventually then they came out with beta 2 and Beta 3 that were added to newer players for longer record/play VHS came out from the start with a tape that could do 2h (and later longer) so you would often see the same film on two Beta tapes or one VHS tape. let's not forget since Beta launched a bit earlier Sony was the one that pissed off the studios (and got sued by them) and VHS got more manufacturer support from the get go.

I am sure all that played a bigger role in VHS winning that round thn the magic of the porn industry you ascribe to.

[mrtickleuk]

Originally Posted by apollo828

It's baffling that some companies are bothering with 8K. Most people don't even bother with true 4K content for various reasons (Netflix charging extra, a premium for optical media when Blu-ray or *shudder* DVD suits them fine, etc). I'd argue that even fewer could tell a difference without a massive screen. Now we're supposed to leapfrog to a format that requires even more specialized cameras, more render time on server farms (AFAIK, 2K is still somewhat common for DIs, although I know this is slowly changing for productions with adequate budgets), even more expensive gear for broadcasting, and displays that make zero sense for mid-sized displays, much less portable devices? (Funny how Macbooks, even the pro ones, haven't made the full 4K leap yet and still sell like hotcakes.) Somebody out there must have *ahem* a wonderful pharmacist who visits them regularly.

Very well said, and I couldn't agree more! Baffling indeed - it makes no sense whatsoever.

[LexInHD]

Originally Posted by mrtickleuk

Very well said, and I couldn't agree more! Baffling indeed - it makes no sense whatsoever.

Tests have been done with the new Cinema LED hardware - what little of it there is - and 8K resolution was found to be more or less irrelevant - in comparison to the 4K standard - at the commonly used cinema sizes the screens will be installed in. That being said, 8K definitely has a place, but it's a very small niche place they can occupy in cinema, useful only for the largest format screens that will be projection only, if the cinema players decide to move up into that market, which they really haven't. At this point, the 8K projector market is basically nothing more than braggy HT stuff and professional visualization hardware, just like the 8K display/TV market is, and I don't expect that to change, even if Asia tries to push forward with 8K.

[mrtickleuk]

Originally Posted by LexInHD

Tests have been done with the new Cinema LED hardware - what little of it there is - and 8K resolution was found to be more or less irrelevant - in comparison to the 4K standard - at the commonly used cinema sizes the screens will be installed in. That being said, 8K definitely has a place, but it's a very small niche place they can occupy in cinema, useful only for the largest format screens that will be projection only, if the cinema players decide to move up into that market, which they really haven't. At this point, the 8K projector market is basically nothing more than braggy HT stuff and professional visualization hardware, just like the 8K display/TV market is, and I don't expect that to change, even if Asia tries to push forward with 8K.

Thanks for that info. Of course, even they too will need proper content. Unless they are planning to sell cinema tickets for people to watch YouTube demos.

[PeterTHX]

Originally Posted by Anthony P

lol. I remember when a porn studio decided to go with HD DVD all the fanboys decided it was the f end of BD because where the porn industry goes everything goes. I never understood why some see so much "importance" in what the porn industry is doing.

Ironically it's streaming sites and the internet in general that killed the porn-as-a-movie genre.

[HDTV1080P]

Originally Posted by PeterTHX

Ironically it's streaming sites and the internet in general that killed the porn-as-a-movie genre.

So far there has only been six hardcore porno movies that have been released on the 4K Blu-ray format. There are over 1,500 2K hardcore porno movies that have been released on the 2K Blu-ray format with some of those titles being Blu-ray 3D. Since hardcore 4K or 2K HD porn is offered on streaming, cable TV, and satellite TV, the demand for porn on physical optical disc media has also decreased.

https://melusine.com/collections/4k-...FBlu-ray+Combo

Porn on Blu-ray is only offered for rent and purchase from adult mail order companies like Adult Empire, Digital Playground, Elegant Angel, Adam and Eve, and various other adult companies (A small amount of hardcore adult movies appear in the Blu-ray.com database with links to purchase the 4K Blu-ray or 2K Blu-ray at Amazon). So far no company has launched an automated PORNBOX vending machine for rental and purchase, most businesses would not allow the PORNBOX vending machines except for some adult nightclubs, bars, and a few other adult businesses might be interested in an automated PORNO vending machine that holds 700+ optical discs to rent.