4K Movies Releases

[kurtis21]

I was just looking at the screenshot comparisons from Battle:Los Angeles...Is it me...or does the regular blu-ray shots look clearer than the 4K blu-ray!! Is that because it's downconverted to 1080P? It seems weird that it wouldn't be as clear & sharp!?!?

[Penton-Man]

Originally Posted by kurtis21

I was just looking at the screenshot comparisons from Battle:Los Angeles...Is it me...or does the regular blu-ray shots look clearer than the 4K blu-ray!! Is that because it's downconverted to 1080P? It seems weird that it wouldn't be as clear & sharp!?!?

It does seem weird. Assuming #1 - that the screen grabs were captured and exhibited properly (I previously posted the criteria for such somewhere on this forum a few months back), and #2 – that exactly the same frame is being compared…then I would say that the original Blu-ray version had a tad bit of sharpening.

Go here http://www.etconsult.com/papers/Imag...tt%20Cowan.pdf

Read p.25 and then look at a couple of the sample images below that. When only a smidgen of sharpening is used, many viewers can’t identify that digital enhancement, as such and some viewers actually prefer it to ‘native’ imagery which can be comparatively *dull* in some scenes.

As an analogous aside, a stereographer from a well known conversion company has performed tests given to both non-industry observers and industry professionals using native 3D vs. 2D -> 3D conversion samples and the vast majority of the audience members (in each category, ‘expert’ and ‘non-expert’) have chose the conversion samples as the preferred imagery.

[Penton-Man]

Originally Posted by Penton-Man

So, continuing, I’m referring to IIF-ACES workflow…
http://www.oscars.org/science-techno...ESOverview.pdf

which includes wider color, 16 bit half-float and standardized rendering…
http://www.hpaonline.com/assets/docu..._FinalDist.pdf

So, what does all this ^ mean to Blu-ray aficionados? Well, in a nutshell, it allows for improved scanning of a film source (e.g. old classics like Taxi Driver, new films like Lincoln, etc.) as defined by the Academy Printing Density and the Academy Density Exchange Encoding (see the linked presentation pdf’s above).

What about digitally shot movies for Blu-ray? Well, currently (without ACES workflow) when you shot with a digital camera that’s capable of recording wide dynamic range such as the F65, F55, Red Epic, etc., and proceed to post production, when you do a transform that converts the imagery to a limited color gamut space like Rec. 709 (for Blu-ray), you lose image quality (clipped highlights, etc.) in the conversion. But, ACES allows the post facility to maintain the full potential of the imagery within a workflow all the way to the finished output…currently Rec. 709 for HD deliverables.

So moving on, reports from early IIF-ACES workflow adopters seem very favorable if you read the comments by the DP and the colorist here - http://cinepostproduction.de/?cat=7&news=306 . In fact, outside of that linked press release, the digital colorist has also mentioned (in a professional working group) that only slight color and brightness adjustments were required to match all the different deliverables (film-out, DCP and TV) and they are so enthusiastic that cinepostproduction in Germany has set ACES as the default pipeline for all future projects.

Ergo, I’m looking forward to the Blu-ray Rubinrot - https://www.blu-ray.com/movies/Rubinrot-Blu-ray/71555/

a.k.a. Ruby Red - http://inkandpage.me/ruby-red-showin...-not-near-you/

Because all the above indicates (and things will only get better with future refinements), that without any heroic effort on the part of the mastering staff at the post house, the Blu-ray incarnation has the potential to look nearly identical (within the limitations of the technical parameters of Blu-ray) to the theatrical exhibition. This is a good thing! So keep an eye out for future motion pictures characterized by ACES digital intermediates in their cinematographic process.

^ So, with all that said and done. I forgot to post the soundtrack of that movie for those of us working under a timeline who crave good tunes to get through the work of the day. Alas, turn up the volume and Enjoy –

RUBINROT -- Musikvideo „Faster" (Sofi de la Torre) - YouTube

[cembros]

Originally Posted by Penton-Man

^ So, with all that said and done. I forgot to post the soundtrack of that movie for those of us working under a timeline who crave good tunes to get through the work of the day. Alas, turn up the volume and Enjoy –

RUBINROT -- Musikvideo „Faster" (Sofi de la Torre) - YouTube

Hopefully I'm not sidetracking the conversation here but I have some questions about upgrading to a new receiver. I have my eye on the Denon AVR-X4000, it seems to have everything I'm looking for including 4k passthrough for when I eventually upgrade to a 4k set but I'm starting to get a bit worried about the advent of HDMI 2.0. Should I wait, will I be missing out? I won't be upgrading to a 4k tv until next year so I'm sure it will be HDMI 2.0 compliant but I'm worried I'll have to bypass the receiver to take advantage. Thoughts?

[Penton-Man]

Originally Posted by MattW

Saw the new sony 4k tv at Best Buy Yesterday. Meh Nice, buy my t.v looks just as good.

Originally Posted by steve1971

Same here Matt. I saw it at my local BB as well and feel the same as you do.

You guys have got me feeling sorry now for the new SONY 4K TVs. Not sure if there is a significant difference in PQ between the 84 incher and the smaller models or, the fact that a retailer set-up rarely demonstrates the full potential of a TV… in contradistinction to something like viewing such tech at the SID Display Week http://www.sid.org/ . Anyway, I think we need a little testimonial balance here. So in that regard, from a professional calibrator who arguably sees and critically evaluates more consumer displays in a year than 99% of the population….

“To summarize this is the first product I have seen that I would consider to replace my Pioneer 151FD which is something I thought might not happen for many years. This is not to say it is without flaws. The anti-glare coatings on this along with the off-axis viewing are much worse than my Pioneer. I am excitedly waiting for the day when the price of these products drop to the point that more consumers can enter the age of 4K.” - - from http://homecinemaguru.com/?p=3655

b.t.w., for new readers to the thread, in regards to the hidden test signals which Jeff refers to in his testimonial - “The hidden (7669) resolution pattern found on Sony Blu-Rays has also never looked better.”

For some background on those, see – https://forum.blu-ray.com/showthread...ry#post7591928

[JohnAV]

Originally Posted by cembros

Hopefully I'm not sidetracking the conversation here but I have some questions about upgrading to a new receiver. I have my eye on the Denon AVR-X4000, it seems to have everything I'm looking for including 4k passthrough for when I eventually upgrade to a 4k set but I'm starting to get a bit worried about the advent of HDMI 2.0. Should I wait, will I be missing out? I won't be upgrading to a 4k tv until next year so I'm sure it will be HDMI 2.0 compliant but I'm worried I'll have to bypass the receiver to take advantage. Thoughts?

The hdmiforum.org originally posted on 10/31/2011 that Final draft of feature set for HDMI Specification v2.0 defined milestone was Mid December 2011, and at CES 2012 (January) that they would have a Press conference to announce feature set for HDMI Specification v2.0. Well here it is end of May 2013 and there is no word on anything.

The only sure facts out right now is that the CE industry is moving forward with 4Kx2K which is talking 1080P content and upscaling it to 2160P/24 hz on new UDTV's. The 4K pass through in AVR's is only against this type of video. It seems to be a natural progression to what might be the next BD standard as film content is captured at 24 hz.

Sure you have people clamoring for 2160P broadcasts (60hz) based on HDMI 2.0, but look at how antiquated the old analog Broadcasting standards are. NTSC dates back to 1941. Probably see H.265 compression used against so called 2160P/24hz video streams way before broadcasting gets its act together that seems stuck in the 720P /1080i era.

Just my opinion but I don't see anything in the near future related to HDMI Specification v2.0. Even if they announced it tomorrow, things just seem to drag for a year or more before being incorporated into mainstream consumer electronics.

One more tidbit, I'm not sure Hollywood is excited to see their native 4K content out where it can get pirated easily, probably one of the main reasons why HDMI 2.0 didn't happen yet.

[Spicoli]

Originally Posted by Penton-Man

You guys have got me feeling sorry now for the new SONY 4K TVs. Not sure if there is a significant difference in PQ between the 84 incher and the smaller models or, the fact that a retailer set-up rarely demonstrates the full potential of a TV… in contradistinction to something like viewing such tech at the SID Display Week http://www.sid.org/ . Anyway, I think we need a little testimonial balance here. So in that regard, from a professional calibrator who arguably sees and critically evaluates more consumer displays in a year than 99% of the population….

“To summarize this is the first product I have seen that I would consider to replace my Pioneer 151FD which is something I thought might not happen for many years. This is not to say it is without flaws. The anti-glare coatings on this along with the off-axis viewing are much worse than my Pioneer. I am excitedly waiting for the day when the price of these products drop to the point that more consumers can enter the age of 4K.” - - from http://homecinemaguru.com/?p=3655

b.t.w., for new readers to the thread, in regards to the hidden test signals which Jeff refers to in his testimonial - “The hidden (7669) resolution pattern found on Sony Blu-Rays has also never looked better.”

For some background on those, see – https://forum.blu-ray.com/showthread...ry#post7591928

The 84 inch dropped to 19,000 WooHoo

[Penton-Man]

Originally Posted by Spicoli

The 84 inch dropped to 19,000 WooHoo

If you're interested, give it more time. For example, past history has shown....https://forum.blu-ray.com/showthread...ia#post6639117

[Spicoli]

Originally Posted by Penton-Man

If you're interested, give it more time. For example, past history has shown....https://forum.blu-ray.com/showthread...ia#post6639117

I 'member that.

I say it goes 10,000 by Q3 2014 and 2,000 by 2020

[PeterTHX]

Originally Posted by JohnAV

The only sure facts out right now is that the CE industry is moving forward with 4Kx2K which is talking 1080P content and upscaling it to 2160P/24 hz on new UDTV's. The 4K pass through in AVR's is only against this type of video. It seems to be a natural progression to what might be the next BD standard as film content is captured at 24 hz.

Don't forget the UHD standard also covers 8K so I wouldn't be surprised if those coming up with the HDMI standards are looking to incorporate that into spec too.

With all the talk of "just" 4K we're forgetting about what the UHD standard really means.

[slickkeng]

In light of new emerging technologies and the BDA investigating adding these new technologies to the blu-ray spec, I was just wondering about the viability of bluray. It is my hope that the BDA will be able to accommodate new technologies such as 4K, HFR, new audio codecs (Dolby Atmos), and 4K 3D and be able to add it to the revised bluray spec.

How plausible is this? Lets say the BDA decides to use the new H.265 codec and BDXL discs - will the storage be enough to handle say 4K 3D in HFR (either 48fps or 60 fps) with Dolby Atmos encoding? Will the new HDMI 2.0 be able to handle this as well or is that yet another barrier? Or will we have to endure yet another format such as holographic discs?

Another optical disc format will leave a bad taste in most peoples mouths and I don't think another format will survive given the fact that there will now be 3 physical formats competing. Any insights would be greatly appreciated. Lets hope the BDA does right and includes all of these technologies in the new spec to ensure the longevity of bluray as a disc format.

[JohnAV]

Originally Posted by slickkeng

In light of new emerging technologies and the BDA investigating adding these new technologies to the blu-ray spec, I was just wondering about the viability of bluray. It is my hope that the BDA will be able to accommodate new technologies such as 4K, HFR, new audio codecs (Dolby Atmos), and 4K 3D and be able to add it to the revised bluray spec.

How plausible is this? Lets say the BDA decides to use the new H.265 codec and BDXL discs - will the storage be enough to handle say 4K 3D in HFR (either 48fps or 60 fps) with Dolby Atmos encoding? Will the new HDMI 2.0 be able to handle this as well or is that yet another barrier? Or will we have to endure yet another format such as holographic discs?

Another optical disc format will leave a bad taste in most peoples mouths and I don't think another format will survive given the fact that there will now be 3 physical formats competing. Any insights would be greatly appreciated. Lets hope the BDA does right and includes all of these technologies in the new spec to ensure the longevity of bluray as a disc format.

First question, why is 3D even necessary with the increased natural depth when looking at a true 4K source? FYI 4K increases the image quality creating an almost 3D aspect, with noticeably increased depth perception, which is probably more the enough to satisfy and attract movie and sports fans worldwide. With current 3D implementation you have decreased contrast, maxing out your brightness, limited viewing angles, nothing I would consider more then a gimmick compared to 4K.

Now getting back to getting 4k onto media. There is a already a 128 GB BDXL media with can be read by current BD players. If you add H.265 to the equation then you can achieve the equivalent of four times the data that a 4K movie represents over a 1080P blu ray soon enough. But if you start wanting double that for 4K 3D forget it. Looking at the more two dimensional 4k at 48 Hz, that was not well received as I recall (special showing of Hobbit at 4k), and was more of a professional experiment by Jackson to see if Hollywood liked it.

IMHO I would think Dolby Atmos recording is way beyond what is usable in home theater. (Scales easily to any size theatre, with up to 64 independent speaker outputs) But I guess some people just want it all.

[img eL]

Originally Posted by PeterTHX

Don't forget the UHD standard also covers 8K so I wouldn't be surprised if those coming up with the HDMI standards are looking to incorporate that into spec too.

With all the talk of "just" 4K we're forgetting about what the UHD standard really means.

The BDA can get to 8K later, there is no need to worry about 8K @ this point in time. There is enough to deal with now with 4K.

[slickkeng]

Originally Posted by JohnAV

First question, why is 3D even necessary with the increased natural depth when looking at a true 4K source? FYI 4K increases the image quality creating an almost 3D aspect, with noticeably increased depth perception, which is probably more the enough to satisfy and attract movie and sports fans worldwide. With current 3D implementation you have decreased contrast, maxing out your brightness, limited viewing angles, nothing I would consider more then a gimmick compared to 4K.

Now getting back to getting 4k onto media. There is a already a 128 GB BDXL media with can be read by current BD players. If you add H.265 to the equation then you can achieve the equivalent of four times the data that a 4K movie represents over a 1080P blu ray soon enough. But if you start wanting double that for 4K 3D forget it. Looking at the more two dimensional 4k at 48 Hz, that was not well received as I recall (special showing of Hobbit at 4k), and was more of a professional experiment by Jackson to see if Hollywood liked it.

IMHO I would think Dolby Atmos recording is way beyond what is usable in home theater. (Scales easily to any size theatre, with up to 64 independent speaker outputs) But I guess some people just want it all.

Thanks for your response. I was hoping to avoid the justification or merits for wanting those formats. As I am sure you are aware, there are great arguments to either side for 3D, HFR (yes generally panned initially, but that does not mean that its a worthless feature to have as people will appreciate it once they get use to it -technically 24 fps is very dated and was done for cost cutting purposes historically), and yes even 4K (especially in smaller sized screens, anything less than 84 inches practically speaking) technology. From my understanding Dolby Atmos can easily be integrated as a codec and be downscaled to any size home theater with better results than the old methodology of 5.1, 7.1 etc. regardless of how many speakers you have. But all arguments on merit aside, I wanted to see if it was technically possible as am I sure as time goes on, these features will be important to people and for blu-ray to remain relevant it needs to adapt to future technologies unless you are hampering for another format. It would be ideal if blu-ray could accommodate these features for the purpose of future proofing the format. From your response it seems unlikely that a BDXL will able to handle the highest load scenario mentioned earlier, although to clarify adding on 3D isn't exactly adding on double the data of a 4K image, I understand its about 50% due to the nature of the codec. I guess the BDA will have to find an 8 layer blu-ray disc to fit everything in considering the data loads of HFR as well.

[Penton-Man]

Originally Posted by slickkeng

In light of new emerging technologies and the BDA investigating adding these new technologies to the blu-ray spec...

The BDA consortium won’t come out with any 4K standard (assuming they want 4K in the first place) until the cable/connector upgrade is issued. It would be unlikely HDMI Forum would adopt DisplayPort. Thusly, a lot hinges upon HDMI 2.0 at this time. Most people are betting that HDMI 2.0 will be capable of handling (only) up to 4K 30fps in 3D.

But, the reality is, it will be quite some time before you see even one 4K HFR motion picture exhibited at your local commercial theater.

[Penton-Man]

Originally Posted by Penton-Man

...So moving on, reports from early IIF-ACES workflow adopters seem very favorable if you read the comments by the DP and the colorist here - http://cinepostproduction.de/?cat=7&news=306 . In fact, outside of that linked press release, the digital colorist has also mentioned (in a professional working group) that only slight color and brightness adjustments were required to match all the different deliverables (film-out, DCP and TV) and they are so enthusiastic that cinepostproduction in Germany has set ACES as the default pipeline for all future projects.

In checking the above ^ post for spelling errors today and Google-translating that news tidbit from the German post facility from German to English (thank God Andy speaks English in the ACES working group), I’m reminded of this Blu-ray… https://www.blu-ray.com/movies/Nosfe...Blu-ray/47529/

Which reminded me of the rare cinematic practice outlined in this article in the New York Times…http://www-nc.nytimes.com/2013/04/14...nted=all&_r=6&

[Steedeel]

Originally Posted by Penton-Man

The BDA consortium won’t come out with any 4K standard (assuming they want 4K in the first place) until the cable/connector upgrade is issued. It would be unlikely HDMI Forum would adopt DisplayPort. Thusly, a lot hinges upon HDMI 2.0 at this time. Most people are betting that HDMI 2.0 will be capable of handling (only) up to 4K 30fps in 3D.

But, the reality is, it will be quite some time before you see even one 4K HFR motion picture exhibited at your local commercial theater.

This is getting frustrating now.

[Penton-Man]

Originally Posted by Steedeel

This is getting frustrating now.

You have no idea… http://advanced-television.com/2013/...ng-into-focus/

But think how Borussia Dortmund felt in the 89th minute of the match last weekend.

[Steedeel]

Originally Posted by Penton-Man

You have no idea… http://advanced-television.com/2013/...ng-into-focus/

But think how Borussia Dortmund felt in the 89th minute of the match last weekend.

Very true.

I'm good to go, just need things sorting

[cembros]

All the speculation regarding HDMI 2.0 and what I can provided I have started to wonder, does it matter? We have had 1080p for years yet we still watch broadcast in 720p/1080i. Is there really going to be any content to take advantage of 2.0? The next generation of games systems will be 4k capable but will games be 4k? I don't think I ever played a native 1080p game on the PS3. I'm starting to think a lot of what it can provide is useless much like deep color and 32bit displays. Thoughts?