HDR Discussion Thread

[Penton-Man]

Originally Posted by Penton-Man

...Reminder for Thursday, FREE and OPEN TO ALL!

For those who missed it live today, this ^ expert HDR presentation eventually will be published on YouTube.

[DanBa]

Originally Posted by Penton-Man

And for those who find it difficult to follow the HDR science of the presentations at that SVG summit and prefer the consumer electronics drama of different companies, fast forwarding to the Q&A at the 46 min 19 sec timestamp near the end of the clip….

affords listeners an inkling as to the different stances of the different presenters as to that topic. For example, Pat is almost encouraging/hoping for super high nits TVs to arrive as soon as possible so as to make (theoretically) HLG more of an inferior competitor to PQ with live content.
...

It is also the opinion of Lars Borg.

[Penton-Man]

No ‘thank you’ for me from ^ anthonymoody….I’m absolutely crushed.

Perhaps you just don’t like small pictures from meetings (not open to the general public) from 2016….https://forum.blu-ray.com/showthread...t#post12850919

[Penton-Man]

Originally Posted by DanBa

It is also the opinion of Lars Borg.

You watched the webinar and filled out the feedback questionnaire.
I'll round it out a bit....busy typing up a reply now before I hop off to lunch.

[Batman1084]

Hey guys,

Been doing a lot of reading but had a quick question. I have a Samsung TV that supports HDR and also the Xbox One S that supports the same. However, my Denon receiver passes 4k but isn't explictly HDR-compatible (avr-x2100w).

With this setup, it appears that my UHD BDs will not play video though I can hear audio - is this because it will not pass the HDR through the receiver?

Thanks, all!

[puddy77]

Originally Posted by Batman1084

Hey guys,

Been doing a lot of reading but had a quick question. I have a Samsung TV that supports HDR and also the Xbox One S that supports the same. However, my Denon receiver passes 4k but isn't explictly HDR-compatible (avr-x2100w).

With this setup, it appears that my UHD BDs will not play video though I can hear audio - is this because it will not pass the HDR through the receiver?

Thanks, all!

Correct. Your receiver cannot pass the 4k HDR signal (it's not HDCP 2.2 compatible). If you want HDR, I would suggest connecting the Xbox directly to the TV and using the optical out on the Xbox to the receiver for sound.

[Penton-Man]

Originally Posted by DanBa

It is also the opinion of Lars Borg.

Yes, for those who missed it, in terms of final imagery outcome on consumers’ possible future super high nit displays, a major contributing factor to his reasoning for arbitrarily positioning HLG at the bottom of the totem pole is the issue with skin tones, as explained to Blu-ray.com readers in December and to the Filmlight employee who posed the question as to ‘why at the bottom’ during the presentation yesterday. For comparison, if I recall, Lars also implied that the PQ curve might not be the Holy Grail for live either. During slides #17 or #18 in your pdf packet, he very briefly touched on HDR WCG work being done in other SMPTE standards working groups without getting into specifics, for the latest details on that, see….https://forum.blu-ray.com/showthread...m#post13091550

Lars also touched a tiny bit on the ICtCp color space, but didn’t get into the latest standards work on that which is that ITU BT. 2100 will be revised to include it, most likely this year..

As to HDR work in ITU and the Rapporteur's Group to which Hugo refers to in the YouTube of the SVG summit presentation last December, which is available for all to see online, Hugo briefly mentions working on operational practices for live simultaneous HDR/SDR production, so if/when I get more time later, I’ll post some of the details of Sony’s early recommended practices as to how best to set up the cameras, something which he didn’t delve into during the panel discussion.

Lunch beckons...have a good weekend folks.

[Richard Paul]

Originally Posted by Robert Zohn

Good news, Flatpanelshd just reported that LG will upgrade all 2016 UHD OLED and LCD/LED TVs to be HLG capable! I have been asking LG to update all 2016 UHD TVs to decode HLG and I am so very happy they are supporting the 2016 UHD line-up with this important HDR format. Bravo LG!

That is great news.

Originally Posted by Robert Zohn

I'm a presenter at NAB in April 2017 and this is one of the items I'll be speaking about. From what I know broadcasters can send HLG with P3 color along with SDR/rec.709 color on the same carrier without buying any equipment.

For the past few years ENG cameras have a user switch to include HLG/P3 along with the 1080i/SDR/rec.709 signal and all of the switching and transmission equipment can handle the signal. If my understanding is correct broadcasters can begin to include HLG with P3 gamut and consumers with UHD HLG capable TVs can begin to enjoy HDR and WCG on OTT and OTA broadcasts.

I think that commercials, channel flipping, and vastly different viewing environments make HLG the best option for broadcasting. I expect HLG to be added to ATSC 3.0 though I wouldn't be surprised if Dolby managed to get Dolby Vision added as well.

Originally Posted by DanBa

It is also the opinion of Lars Borg.

Dynamic metadata could potentially generate hundreds of millions of dollars in revenue from companies that have patents which cover it and from companies that sell patented software that use dynamic metadata. HLG is free, is based on gamma/log functions which have been around for decades, and will most likely be supported by free software before the end of the year. Not to be cynical but from the perspective of Adobe there is a very strong financial motivation for pushing the industry toward dynamic metadata.

[Penton-Man]

Originally Posted by Richard Paul

Dynamic metadata could potentially generate hundreds of millions of dollars in revenue from companies that have patents which cover it and from companies that sell patented software that use dynamic metadata. HLG is free, is based on gamma/log functions which have been around for decades, and will most likely be supported by free software before the end of the year. Not to be cynical but from the perspective of Adobe there is a very strong financial motivation for pushing the industry toward dynamic metadata.

I agree with everything you’ve said without reservation, except possibly for the moment of cynical thought , not sure on that one. Anyway , regardless if you’re right and there exists any real conflict of interest manifested by Lars’s association at Adobe, Hugo in the SVG summit clip succinctly offers up the bottom line for the live HDR business to ease peoples’ minds….

Originally Posted by Penton-Man

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Mt_ZEIgQC-0#t=47m53s

[Penton-Man]

Originally Posted by Penton-Man

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Mt_ZEIgQC-0#t=46m29s

As to ‘the color volume war’ characterization ^ by Pat in his addendum to Josh’s response. with my scanning the consumer electronics websites for reporter coverage of CES 2017 from across the pond ….https://www.avforums.com/news/samsun...qled-tvs.13278 …”To demonstrate this Samsung had created special footage graded at DCI-P3 and 1,000 nits that showed pencils under different lighting conditions.”

I believe that rather than an incremental step in possible picture quality improvement for the display of movies, real progress would have been in showing footage from an actual motion picture graded at 4,000 nits as seen with this implementation in the guts of Samsung's TVs….https://www.sra.samsung.com/assets/U...94-40-v1.1.pdf

[Penton-Man]

Originally Posted by Penton-Man

As to ‘the color volume

Color volume being something few hobbyists appreciated on AV forums back in the day (because, with the exception of Richard and maybe a couple others, they’d never heard of HPA nor, much less attended an HPA retreat in 2014 at which Robin Atkins presented), but has since then become a more fashionable phrase at conferences and by the AV press.

An old Cliff notes version of what means color volume….https://forum.blu-ray.com/showthread...e#post11011071

[Penton-Man]

Originally Posted by Penton-Man

...details of Sony’s early recommended practices as to how best to set up the cameras

I’ll get to that later this weekend or next week, must find a simulated illustrative pic from the 4300.

[Penton-Man]

Originally Posted by Penton-Man

I’ll get to that later this weekend or next week, must find a simulated illustrative pic from the 4300.

Read text and see Figure 1 -

[Penton-Man]

https://forum.blu-ray.com/showthread...s#post13085446

Update to ^ – Charles now has been officially added to the schedule for Tuesday….

[Penton-Man]

https://forum.blu-ray.com/showthread...b#post12906036
^ And an upcoming DVB UHD HDR webinar on Wednesday -> https://www.dvb.org/news/dvb-uhd-hdr-webinar

[Penton-Man]

In thee olden times, the gesture of……

Throwing down the gauntlet - YouTube

In modern times, we've had this provocative deed - https://forum.blu-ray.com/showthread...e#post12671964

So, as a reminder to yet another expert event this coming week, we have the Brits (featuring 2 who played an integral role in the development of the HLG format and all around nice guys ) taking up the gauntlet in a SMPTE educational webcast on Thursday….https://forum.blu-ray.com/showpost.p...&postcount=846 . Like with the 2094 webinar, I suspect someone from FilmLight will tune in and I hope someone from the BBC Bristol post-production team (who worked on the HLG HDR grade for Planet Earth 2) will also join in the Q&A to Tim and Andrew.

[Penton-Man]

Originally Posted by Geoff D

You probably don't keep up with all the respective threads for individual titles (all that bike riding's gotta tire a man out).....

lol, guilty as charged …..on both counts ( and my heart thanks me evidently by what’s shown on my scan ) but, keep in mind, bikers are better informed than what you might think at first glance…

https://vimeo.com/136569778


2nd glance …..

https://vimeo.com/143092765

Some of my buddies (various different company employees, as well as a couple of gifted independent contractors) with yours truly taking a moment to pose for a photo at a Group Ride meet up …..

[KubrickKurasawa]

How many flavors of HDR are there going to be? (Any idea?)

[nugget2016]

Originally Posted by KubrickKurasawa

How many flavors of HDR are there going to be? (Any idea?)

Hdr10 dolby vision technicolor and hlg

[DanBa]

Originally Posted by KubrickKurasawa

How many flavors of HDR are there going to be? (Any idea?)

http://www.avsforum.com/forum/465-hi...-displays.html

Concerning the open standard SMPTE ST 2094-20/30 dynamic metadata, as far as I understand from the information found on the Internet, the upcoming Technicolor HDR to be implemented on 2017 LG OLED TV uses the SMPTE ST 2094-20 (Philips) / 2094-30 (Technicolor) dynamic metadata:
http://www.avsforum.com/forum/465-hi...l#post49682777

Decoder in such a Technicolor HDR-compliant set-top box

Input HDR video >> Pre-processing >> SDR + dynamic metadata >> HEVC encoder >> SDR bitstream + SMPTE ST 2094 dynamic metadata in HEVC SEI >> HEVC decoder > Post-processing (display adaptation) > CTA HDR10 uncompressed video >> HDMI 2.0a >> HDR10 compliant TV

Input HDR video >> Pre-processing >> SDR + dynamic metadata >> HEVC encoder >> SDR bitstream + SMPTE ST 2094 dynamic metadata in HEVC SEI >> HEVC decoder > Post-processing (display adaptation) > HLG uncompressed video >> HDMI 2.0b >> HLG compliant TV

Input HDR video >> Pre-processing >> SDR + dynamic metadata >> HEVC encoder >> SDR bitstream + SMPTE ST 2094 dynamic metadata in HEVC SEI >> HEVC decoder > SDR uncompressed video >> HDMI >> SDR compliant TV



Apparently, many 2017 LG / Sony TVs will be compatible with all existing operational HDR formats (i.e. HEVC HDR10, HEVC Dolby Vision, HEVC HLG HDR, VP9-HLG YouTube HDR, VP9-PQ YouTube HDR).
http://www.avsforum.com/forum/465-hi...l#post49925313

Many 2017 LG TVs will also be compliant with the upcoming Technicolor HDR (apparently aka Technicolor/Philips HDR, or SMPTE ST 2094-20/30 dynamic metadata-based Dynamic HDR, or ETSI SL-HDR1).
http://www.avsforum.com/forum/465-hi...l#post49712841