Player decoding or Receiver decoding, that is the question

[EWL5]

Originally Posted by EWL5

After much delay, I finally did a PCM shootout b/w the Denon 3800 and the PS3. Here were the ground rules:

1) Player decodes to PCM over HDMI to my HDMI 1.2 Pioneer Elite 84 AVR.
2) Levels are matched b/w the PS3 and the Denon to within 1dB using Avia reference tones.
3) Scene testing b/w players cannot be more than 5 minutes apart. I wish I had multiple copies of each disc but I don't!

Immortal Beloved - played the "Ode to Joy" scene and could not discern any difference b/w players. Love the heartbeat interlude with very good LFE content. TrueHD track.

I, Robot - Played the "You Are Having An Accident" scene. No difference again. DTS-HD MA track.

Tony Bennet: An American Classic - I picked the "The Best is Yet to Come duet with Diana Krall". Again no difference. PCM 5.1 track.

In my mind, jitter is a non-issue for multichannel movie tracks. I just got the Oppo BDP83 as well but will have to do a 3-way some other time.

I tested the Oppo against the PS3 (both are very quick so better for the memory) the next day.

After level matching, there was no discernable difference b/w the Oppo and the PS3 letting both decode to PCM over HDMI.

[ungood]

I'm sorry if this has been asked already but I'm looking for clarification regarding having a Blu-Ray player with lossless audio decoders and buying either an HDMI receiver that doesn't have lossless audio decoders versus one that does have lossless decoders and are a bit more expensive:

If I already have a Blu-Ray player with TrueHD and DTS-HDMA decoders, but I don't have a receiver with HDMI and I am looking to get one that has HDMI, would I still be able to get lossless audio if i decide to get an HDMI receiver that does not have lossless audio decoders instead of a more expensive HDMI receiver that does have lossless audio decoders since I'd be streaming PCM from the player?

[BIslander]

Originally Posted by ungood

I'm sorry if this has been asked already but I'm looking for clarification regarding having a Blu-Ray player with lossless audio decoders and buying either an HDMI receiver that doesn't have lossless audio decoders versus one that does have lossless decoders and are a bit more expensive:

If I already have a Blu-Ray player with TrueHD and DTS-HDMA decoders, but I don't have a receiver with HDMI and I am looking to get one that has HDMI, would I still be able to get lossless audio if i decide to get an HDMI receiver that does not have lossless audio decoders instead of a more expensive HDMI receiver that does have lossless audio decoders since I'd be streaming PCM from the player?

Yes. These days, though, most new AVRs with HDMI have decoders for TrueHD and dts-MA. Multichannel analog is your other choice for lossless, depending on your player and receiver.

[ungood]

yeah i knew about multichannel analog from the player but unfortunately, i have the panny bd60 which doesn't have multich. analog outs. i was just wondering if getting an hdmi receiver without the lossless decoders would work since i'd just be using the player to stream pcm (and save a few bucks from buying a receiver that i wouldn't need to decode with)

[EWL5]

Originally Posted by ungood

yeah i knew about multichannel analog from the player but unfortunately, i have the panny bd60 which doesn't have multich. analog outs. i was just wondering if getting an hdmi receiver without the lossless decoders would work since i'd just be using the player to stream pcm (and save a few bucks from buying a receiver that i wouldn't need to decode with)

It's almost the end of 2009 and you can still find HDMI receivers that can't decode the new codecs?!!! How much are you saving? You could have gotten a brand new Onkyo 607 on Labor Day Weekend for $370.50 shipped! How much cheaper is the non-decoding HDMI receiver you're looking at?

http://forums.slickdeals.net/showthr...id=0&t=1542363

If this question was asked back in 2007, I'd say you have a point. There's no excuse to buy a non-decoding HDMI receiver these days. Decoding receivers are cheap now!

Edit: You can still get the Onkyo 607 for $400 at Buydig.com (I have no experience shopping there):
http://www.buydig.com/shop/product.aspx?sku=OKTXR607B

[jonmoz]

Hi there it's allways funny when new technology comes out that makes us change the way we do things, i mean i am certain everyone this thread would agree that even though you can obtain a 1080 p picture via component Hdmi is the way to go, so it surprises me that a lot of people want their blu-ray player to decode the new lossless formats.The main reason of course is that many people have spent a lot of money on high and lower end amps and recivers that have no Hdmi decoding capabilities, and major blu-ray developers like Denon and Pioneer have been guilty of producing high end amps and recievers that were not future compatable, so they have to have a solution for us poor folks that are sick of constantly upgrading our kit hence 7.1 ouutputs on blu-ray players.But as we all know the best an most trouble free way to connect is Hdmi. My kit list Infocus In82 projector, Projecta 110" homescreen delux, Pioneer Bdp-09fd blu-ray, Onkyo Tx-sr875 reciver, Three Jamo D6 lcr Thx front speakers, Four Jamo D6 surround dipole Thx speakers, One Rel R505 subwoofer in black.

[EWL5]

Originally Posted by jonmoz

Hi there it's allways funny when new technology comes out that makes us change the way we do things, i mean i am certain everyone this thread would agree that even though you can obtain a 1080 p picture via component Hdmi is the way to go, so it surprises me that a lot of people want their blu-ray player to decode the new lossless formats.

Actually, you can't get 1080p over component from BD players. The best you can do is 1080i due to copy protection (component cable is definitely capable of 1080p). There are very rare exceptions to this rule but they normally are not of the legal variety as Hollywood knows how to protect their intellectual property.

I own an older Pioneer receiver that doesn't decode the newer audio codecs but it accepts 7.1 PCM over HDMI so I simply needed a player that decodes to PCM. I don't own a single HDMI 1.3 AVR in the house but I've been enjoying the good audio over PCM to HDMI or MCH analog inputs.

[jonmoz]

I was not saying the quality was any worse when using the 7.1 outputs rather than the hdmi output,and my comments were directed more at the amplifier/reciever manufacturers for making kit that is not fully compatable with future sound formats.My example of using hdmi was just a for instance what if you had component or hdmi both running to their full potential you would probably choose the hdmi option.My Pioneer bdp-09fd for example outputs a very good dolby tru hd and dts master audio signal through its 7.1 outputs but after trying both i prefer the hdmi option,also the connection is a lot easier.I am sorry if you thought i was having a go at people with older amps/recivers as i was in the same position when blu-ray came out.

[Tinman7783]

I agree with EWL5...let the player decode to PCM and if the receiver accepts 7.1 or 5.1 PCM your set. In the end the receiver has to decode the signal to PCM anyways because there are no digital speakers to handle a digital signal only analog. And lossless is lossless. IMAO

[mx2004]

Originally Posted by Tinman7783

there are no digital speakers to handle a digital signal only analog.

Off-Topic, but inspired by Tinman, take a look at these: Meridian DSP8000 Digital Active Loudspeaker

On-topic, I think that player decoding (to LPCM) -vs- receiver decoding based on my reading and listening is very much down to the HDMI implementation in the amplifier - on a 'cheaper' receiver (and I'm not trying to use the term disparagingly) bitstreaming is likely to sound better, whereas if you move to Arcam / Pioneer Elite etc. territory the LPCM will be indistinguishable. As for analogue, that has its charms and uses - in my own system there would be no HD audio without the multi analogue link and rather fine it sounds, too. Just because there's no HDMI doesn't make the amplifier sections any lesser quality, for instance.

[EWL5]

Originally Posted by jonmoz

I was not saying the quality was any worse when using the 7.1 outputs rather than the hdmi output,and my comments were directed more at the amplifier/reciever manufacturers for making kit that is not fully compatable with future sound formats.My example of using hdmi was just a for instance what if you had component or hdmi both running to their full potential you would probably choose the hdmi option.My Pioneer bdp-09fd for example outputs a very good dolby tru hd and dts master audio signal through its 7.1 outputs but after trying both i prefer the hdmi option,also the connection is a lot easier.I am sorry if you thought i was having a go at people with older amps/recivers as i was in the same position when blu-ray came out.

HDMI simplifies things greatly but also does introduce a bunch of HDCP issues and errors. When I flip through channels from a cable box that is connected using HDMI, there is a longer pause b/w channels of different resolutions (1080i vs 720p, SD vs HD) as compared to using component for video. Unfortunately, most devices that provide video processing are only available over the HDMI connection so HDMI wins by default.

I would imagine the average customer just getting into Blu-ray doesn't realize that the mixing of primary and secondary audio (ie. most commentaries) require decoding to be done in the player and therefore, PCM output to the receiver. Bitstreaming is great but I think sending PCM over HDMI provides greater flexibility in the long run, while retaining all of the downstream AVR's equalization/calibrated settings.

jonmoz, I'm surprised to hear that your prefer your Onkyo's Burr Brown DAC's vs the Wolfson DAC's in your 09 player. In the end, it's whichever way sounds best for you.

[jonmoz]

I think EWL5 said it perfectly its whatever sounds the best to your own ears,and if you are using a good quality amp/speaker set up with good quality cables both the hdmi and 7.1 options will sound very good,as i said i prefer the hdmi option for ease of connection and in my opinion sounds a little clearer.On the subject of ease of connection a lot depends on your set-up i only connect the Bdp-09 to my amp and projector so i only use two leads.On a related note i owned the Panasonic bdp-30 before buying the Pioneer and i found a very noticable difference between both players hdmi bitstreaming quality.

[aholley]

I just left two local AV chains where I had this debate/argument (which unit decodes) with the salesman. In both cases I was told I need to buy a new Blu-ray player that has built in decoders for the new lossless formats as well as a new receiver that has them. My question was can I or should I upgrade my player (Sony BDP-S300) to one that has built in decoders like the new Oppo unit (cheaper option) or upgrade my receiver (Denon AVR-3806).

I found an article on this site that confirmed the codec's are backwards compatible, new of the debate on where the decoding should be done so i was surprised to be told this at the store!?

So I guess my question is can I get either of the new codecs (DD THD or DTS MA) from my current setup or at least by just upgrading my player to a unit that internally decodes these? I would prefer not to replace my receiver at this time.

Thanks.

[cembros]

Originally Posted by aholley

I just left two local AV chains where I had this debate/argument (which unit decodes) with the salesman. In both cases I was told I need to buy a new Blu-ray player that has built in decoders for the new lossless formats as well as a new receiver that has them. My question was can I or should I upgrade my player (Sony BDP-S300) to one that has built in decoders like the new Oppo unit (cheaper option) or upgrade my receiver (Denon AVR-3806).

I found an article on this site that confirmed the codec's are backwards compatible, new of the debate on where the decoding should be done so i was surprised to be told this at the store!?

So I guess my question is can I get either of the new codecs (DD THD or DTS MA) from my current setup or at least by just upgrading my player to a unit that internally decodes these? I would prefer not to replace my receiver at this time.

Thanks.

you defiently need to upgrade your player as the 300 neither decodes nor sends via bitstream dtshdma. It does however decode truehd internally. If your receiver can accept lpcm of atleat 5.1 ch then you do not need to upgrade your receiver. You can find the sony s360 for around 200 bucks (prob for less during black friday) and that will decode all audio codecs and send it to your avr over hdmi via pcm.

[EWL5]

Originally Posted by aholley

I just left two local AV chains where I had this debate/argument (which unit decodes) with the salesman. In both cases I was told I need to buy a new Blu-ray player that has built in decoders for the new lossless formats as well as a new receiver that has them. My question was can I or should I upgrade my player (Sony BDP-S300) to one that has built in decoders like the new Oppo unit (cheaper option) or upgrade my receiver (Denon AVR-3806).

I found an article on this site that confirmed the codec's are backwards compatible, new of the debate on where the decoding should be done so i was surprised to be told this at the store!?

So I guess my question is can I get either of the new codecs (DD THD or DTS MA) from my current setup or at least by just upgrading my player to a unit that internally decodes these? I would prefer not to replace my receiver at this time.

Thanks.

Why are you surprised? This was a salesman talking to you and not your "knowledgeable friend"!

You can keep your Denon 3806 as long as you have multchannel analog inputs. Buying a modern BD player that will decode all and output via the multichannel analog outputs will do the job and you won't miss out on the lossless codecs. If you are interested at all in the additional content provided by the internet via BD Live 2.0, then you must by a new BD player anyway.

What's your budget if all you want is the BD player upgrade?

[mx2004]

Originally Posted by aholley

I just left two local AV chains where I had this debate/argument (which unit decodes) with the salesman. In both cases I was told I need to buy a new Blu-ray player that has built in decoders for the new lossless formats as well as a new receiver that has them. My question was can I or should I upgrade my player (Sony BDP-S300) to one that has built in decoders like the new Oppo unit (cheaper option) or upgrade my receiver (Denon AVR-3806).

I found an article on this site that confirmed the codec's are backwards compatible, new of the debate on where the decoding should be done so i was surprised to be told this at the store!?

So I guess my question is can I get either of the new codecs (DD THD or DTS MA) from my current setup or at least by just upgrading my player to a unit that internally decodes these? I would prefer not to replace my receiver at this time.

Thanks.

Looking at the specs here, the BDP-S300 will decode True HD to LPCM for output over HDMI but will not bitstream it. It will neither decode nor bitstream DTS-HD MA, so you'll get core lossy DTS only from MA sountracks.

Looking at the specs on your Denon AVR-3806 it looks like it can accept multichannel LPCM over HDMI 1.1, which means you can get full-fat Dolby True HD now (by setting the player to output LPCM) and you can add DTS-HD MA by changing your player to the Oppo or something similar. (Providing I haven't misread the specs: click the link and scroll to Connections section: HDMI/DVI-D inputs - '2 with 6ch DVD-Audio support' which to my reckoning means multichannel LPCM. Almost all current players can decode MA to LPCM, so you possibly don't need to go as far as the Oppo and save a little money (especially if you don't need the SACD/DVDA support).

There's a lot written here and there about LPCM over HDMI versus bitstreaming, but if your amp suits you and your speakers well, a player upgrade is a relatively inexpensive way to access all the HD audio formats. Good luck!

[mx2004]

Originally Posted by EWL5

Why are you surprised? This was a salesman talking to you and not your "knowledgeable friend"!

You can keep your Denon 3806 as long as you have multchannel analog inputs. Buying a modern BD player that will decode all and output via the multichannel analog outputs will do the job and you won't miss out on the lossless codecs. If you are interested at all in the additional content provided by the internet via BD Live 2.0, then you must by a new BD player anyway.

What's your budget if all you want is the BD player upgrade?

You posted while I was typing! Maybe you could be a second pair of eyes and see if I have read the Denon specs correctly?

[aholley]

Thats great news! I wasnt surprised so much as frustrated I guess. It's annoying knowing more than the guy selling tech to you. Especially at a high end chain that offers Macintosh, Martin Logan, etc. Im NOT an expert but I know enough.

I was interested in the Oppo because of the SACD capabilities. Then I can get my Denon player out of the mix.

Financially I just cant swing a new receiver right now but eventually I will.

Thanks for the help.

Is Oppo player as good as it sounds? I excited about the universal player aspect.

[EWL5]

Originally Posted by mx2004

You posted while I was typing! Maybe you could be a second pair of eyes and see if I have read the Denon specs correctly?

Yeah I was perusing the 3806 manual and there's a very small blurb about DVD-A over HDMI on pg 20. Since it's only HDMI 1.1 on the 3806, aholley's golden as long as the Oppo (or any other player ) decodes everything to multichannel LPCM.

aholley, since you mentioned an interest in SACD, I think the perfect player for you is the Oppo. The next cheapest universal BD player retails for $4500, just so you know.

[aholley]

Anyway to verify that on the new Oppo unit? Do you have one? Your pic looks like you do?

I did know that about the next cheapest. Thats why I was wondering where the catch was with the Oppo.