Prometheus (2012)

[Wernski]

HR Giger seemed pretty approving of the work they were doing on Prometheus in the documentary.

[mar3o]

Originally Posted by Lentulus Batiatus

That link was good for a few laughs. Basically it's "Alien was PERFECT, Prometheus was CRAP!" by repeating the same trash over and over. Alien SFX people had to work for their money, Prometheus they just flipped the computer on and it looks so computered? OK then.

I wouldn't go that far, so yeah, he is trivializing the hard work the CGI guys put into Prometheus. Obviously the computer CGI wizards worked countless hours to accomplish the visual effects in Prometheus, and it shows. But I think less imagination went into the actual design elements of Prometheus. The interiors of the Prometheus ship look like every other generic spaceship interior you'd see on Sy-Fy or any generic sci-fi flick. The planet in Prometheus was dull and boring visually, as opposed to the frightening alien landscape of LV-426 in Alien. And I agree with his comment on the spacesuits - the spacesuits were and are awesome in Alien. Not so much for Prometheus.

To be fair to that blog though, Alien is considered a classic, and has been considered one and will continue to be considered one for a long time to come. It consistently hits top 10 lists on best sci-fi/horror films, for good reason. It was scary as hell. Prometheus just wasn't scary - at all. And that may be it's biggest sin of all. I doubt if Prometheus will ever be considered a classic. Not in a good way anyways.

[mar3o]

Originally Posted by Wernski

HR Giger seemed pretty approving of the work they were doing on Prometheus in the documentary.

I'd love to hear how he feels about it now that it's done and over with, and not while he's on-set working. Of course if he wants to be asked back for the sequel, he may still be nice about it.

[Krelldog1977]

Originally Posted by nagysaudio

Avatar is a modern masterpiece. And Cameron can't write? Seriously? Cameron is one of the most creative writers in the history of written material. He's a true visionary. Can't write?

Cameron's imagination has brought some of the very best and most fantastical yet plausible sci-fi movies of all time:

The Terminator
Aliens
The Abyss
Terminator 2: Judgment Day

Can't write?

How about the movie which won the most Oscars in the history of Oscars? Or the highest grossing movie number one and number two?

Titanic
Avatar

He can't write?

Terminator
Kyle Reese
Sarah Connor
Ellen Ripley
Bishop
Private Hudson
Corporal Hicks
Virgil Bridgman
Lt. Hiram Coffey
Harry Tasker
Helen Tasker
Jack Dawson
Rose DeWitt Bukater

These are some of the most memorable characters in the history of cinema.

Can't write? Maybe ya'll should go buy some of those incredibly lame Criterion movies announced for June.

Ridiculous nonsense.

EXACTLY-you've stole the words out of my mouth! The anti-Cameron fans can barely read, let alone write a script.

I guess IQ's are starting to drop rapidly.....as Ripley's prophecy proclaims.

[Krelldog1977]

Originally Posted by mar3o

Yeah - after Prometheus, maybe he should walk away from doing anything involving Blade Runner prequels/sequels. I place most of the blame on the writer of Prometheus, but Scott has to take some credit. Actually, maybe Scott is the reason Prometheus wasn't any worse than it is?

I think he should pretty much walk at this point, he's lost his passion for making pure cinema, and he accepted the vile script for Prometheus. Not a good sign

The thought of a blade runner sequel is interesting to say the least, but It's a good bet the movie will disappoint the original fans. Lets hope they don't screw it up.

[itsaboutHD]

Originally Posted by mar3o

Are you familiar with H.R. Giger's artwork style? I ask because fans of his work will immediately recognize his "trademark" style of bio-mechanical merging of man/woman and machine. His work on the design of the Space Jockey has Giger written all over it. As you pointed out, it's difficult to tell where the Space Jockey's remains end and the chair begins. It's sort of "merged" together, as if he grew into or was formed as part of the chair itself. That's classic Giger. Tons of his artwork depict that bizarre merging of flesh and machine. That's what made the Space Jockey so totally creepy and alien. It was almost as if the Space Jockey and the chair was a single, alien object, with the operator literally merged into the chair. It was unlike any form of life as we understand it, and that's what made the whole concept so frightening to so many viewers.

With Prometheus, all that is thrown out the window. They knew what they were designing in Alien - they knew full well that it was something totally alien that looked like it shouldn't exist. We didn't need Prometheus to re-write it and "fix" the size with the over-large Space Jockey. It was like that for a reason.

Originally Posted by BouCoupDinkyDau

Terminator. Kyle with Sara.



In O'Bannon's original story, the jockey and the alien are synonymous. The xenomorph is supposed to be the immature form of that species. It was to live a short time in that brutal animal-like state and then transform into the jockey, which was a highly intelligent and benevolent race. Subsequent drafts of the script for ALIEN dropped that connection.

Regardless, although the jockey looks like a skeleton, I can see how they re-imagined it into a suit. I mean, look at the thing: it FULLY takes up the seat it is in, which means with muscle and flesh it would have been a larger creature that would have been much too large for that chair.

And look at the arms on it. Those do not look like bones. They are solid, like armor or the sleeves of some other covering.
And the tendrils that are on them extend to the chair; implying a functional connection to the equipment.
Even the joysticks the jockey is gripping look like bone. Does that mean the chair was alive too?

It looks more like a suit than a carcass, but it's designed in such a way that it could be either (which is the point of Geiger's art in the first place: where does the living thing end and the machine begin?).

So it could really go either way.

@Mar30, I think you and BCDD are agreeing on Geiger's artwork, whether he's familiar with it or not, but maybe the part that you should have bolded (or the point he's trying to make) is the one I bolded above. And after seeing Alien enough times now, pausing the frames involved, I have rejected any notion of the Space Jockey being a fossilized remain. But that's just me

[itsaboutHD]

Originally Posted by mar3o

And I don't know how anybody can look at those comparison images and claim that the original Space Jockey was intended to be anything other than the skeletal remains of some massive, totally alien life form. Those are bones no matter how much we're told to believe otherwise now.

But then you wrote this,

Originally Posted by mar3o

Are you familiar with H.R. Giger's artwork style? I ask because fans of his work will immediately recognize his "trademark" style of bio-mechanical merging of man/woman and machine. His work on the design of the Space Jockey has Giger written all over it. As you pointed out, it's difficult to tell where the Space Jockey's remains end and the chair begins. It's sort of "merged" together, as if he grew into or was formed as part of the chair itself. That's classic Giger. Tons of his artwork depict that bizarre merging of flesh and machine. That's what made the Space Jockey so totally creepy and alien. It was almost as if the Space Jockey and the chair was a single, alien object, with the operator literally merged into the chair. It was unlike any form of life as we understand it, and that's what made the whole concept so frightening to so many viewers...

Which to me says, "it's clearly bones" then "it's clearly machine/alien combo". Clearly, there's room for doubt!

Don't get me wrong, I was sorely disappointed with the casting, the script, and, as someone else mentioned, the lack of professionalism of some of the characters. They weren't convincing. The movie has issues, but the overall story, in a big picture way is, in my opinion, pretty good.

[mar3o]

Originally Posted by itsaboutHD

@Mar30, I think you and BCDD are agreeing on Geiger's artwork, whether he's familiar with it or not, but maybe the part that you should have bolded (or the point he's trying to make) is the one I bolded above. And after seeing Alien enough times now, pausing the frames involved, I have rejected any notion of the Space Jockey being a fossilized remain. But that's just me

But the fact that it's so disproportionate to the chair is part of why it's so creepy imo. We really had no idea what that thing was, or how it operated whatever it was that it was seated on. And that made it extra disturbing. I can say with confidence that when they were designing it back in the 70's, they weren't imagining a slightly-larger-than-man humanoid sitting in that chair. If that was the case, they just would have made a humanoid-looking skeleton that was much smaller than what they made. The fact that they went with such a bizarre design is proof that whatever was sitting (or maybe even grew) in that chair was not humanoid.

[mar3o]

Originally Posted by itsaboutHD

But then you wrote this,
Which to me says, "it's clearly bones" then "it's clearly machine/alien combo". Clearly, there's room for doubt!

No matter how you look at it, I don't see how anybody could come to the conclusion that it was a decomposed spacesuit we were looking at in Alien. If that's the case, why wouldn't they have made it look more like a spacesuit, so we would get that it was some kind of spacesuit?

The things that look like bones to most people, and were always assumed to be bones until Prometheus tried to change it, are bones as far as I'm concerned. Where the creature ended and the chair began are up for debate, and that's what was so cool about it. But regardless of whether the creature was separate from the chair or merged into it or whatever, those things that look like bones were made to look like bones because that's what they were supposed to be. The rest of the thing is up for debate, but the bones look like bones to me, as much so as the skull looks like a skull, not a helmet.

Seriously - look into the eye sockets of the Space Jockey in Alien - look at the shots on the previous page. Are we really supposed to believe that that is a helmet with holes for seeing out, and not eye sockets? I don't buy it for a second. They look like eye sockets to me.

[itsaboutHD]

Originally Posted by mar3o

No matter how you look at it, I don't see how anybody could come to the conclusion that it was a decomposed spacesuit we were looking at in Alien. If that's the case, why wouldn't they have made it look more like a spacesuit, so we would get that it was some kind of spacesuit?

The things that look like bones to most people, and were always assumed to be bones until Prometheus tried to change it, are bones as far as I'm concerned. Where the creature ended and the chair began are up for debate, and that's what was so cool about it. But regardless of whether the creature was separate from the chair or merged into it or whatever, those things that look like bones were made to look like bones because that's what they were supposed to be. The rest of the thing is up for debate, but the bones look like bones to me, as much so as the skull looks like a skull, not a helmet.

Seriously - look into the eye sockets of the Space Jockey in Alien - look at the shots on the previous page. Are we really supposed to believe that that is a helmet with holes for seeing out, and not eye sockets? I don't buy it for a second. They look like eye sockets to me.

I'd really like to argue the bone issue because I think I can find plenty of support, but I have a class final tomorrow that I should be studying for. So maybe then

[BouCoupDinkyDau]

Originally Posted by mar3o

No matter how you look at it, I don't see how anybody could come to the conclusion that it was a decomposed spacesuit we were looking at in Alien.

Ignoring Prometheus, it could be a fusion. Dallas did observe that it looked fossilized. A body could have fused with a suit (as all of the material did end up doing with the chair), giving it the bizarre appearance.

The things that look like bones to most people, and were always assumed to be bones until Prometheus tried to change it, are bones as far as I'm concerned.

That's fine. You think they're bones. Nothing wrong with that, just like there's nothing wrong with other people seeing all of the other possibilities that could exist there.

Seriously - look into the eye sockets of the Space Jockey in Alien - look at the shots on the previous page. Are we really supposed to believe that that is a helmet with holes for seeing out, and not eye sockets? I don't buy it for a second. They look like eye sockets to me.

The head looks like a skull, the ribs look like ribs. The arms and hands look like the fully formed appendages of that organism (not bones), or the sleeves and gloves that covered them. Again, Geiger's art suggests the possibility of both or either. You can't claim without any doubt that it's one or the other. Just look at the interior of the vessel: it looks like bones too, but it's technology, not organic. Geiger blurred the distinctions, that's why this topic is debatable to infinity, and why the design is so creepy.

[Early Memphis]

Originally Posted by BouCoupDinkyDau

... Again, Geiger's art suggests the possibility of both or either. You can't claim without any doubt that it's one or the other. Just look at the interior of the vessel: it looks like bones too, but it's technology, not organic. Geiger blurred the distinctions, that's why this topic is debatable to infinity, and why the design is so creepy.

Or ... organic technology. Whatever, it "grew" inside the Nostromo. Anyway, good point, it shoulda been brought up sooner.

[Krelldog1977]

Originally Posted by mar3o

No matter how you look at it, I don't see how anybody could come to the conclusion that it was a decomposed spacesuit we were looking at in Alien. If that's the case, why wouldn't they have made it look more like a spacesuit, so we would get that it was some kind of spacesuit?

The things that look like bones to most people, and were always assumed to be bones until Prometheus tried to change it, are bones as far as I'm concerned. Where the creature ended and the chair began are up for debate, and that's what was so cool about it. But regardless of whether the creature was separate from the chair or merged into it or whatever, those things that look like bones were made to look like bones because that's what they were supposed to be. The rest of the thing is up for debate, but the bones look like bones to me, as much so as the skull looks like a skull, not a helmet.

Seriously - look into the eye sockets of the Space Jockey in Alien - look at the shots on the previous page. Are we really supposed to believe that that is a helmet with holes for seeing out, and not eye sockets? I don't buy it for a second. They look like eye sockets to me.

They look like eye sockets to me as well. And I'm sure that's what Scott wanted it to look like. Its obvious that there was a chest-bursting incident from the original space jockey...and the bones do resemble bones, but then again parts of the ship do as well.

If there was a spacesuit on the space jockey, then why was it deteriorated almost completely? Shouldn't it last for a hundred millennia considering the material was high-tech and far superior to humans? If the space jockey was already in a high tech space suit then how did he get infected without knowing it?...and he was in the " driver's seat ".

Why was the space jockey's derelict craft not equipped with advanced weaponry( hand held ) to deal with the calamity they encountered? How can such an advanced species not know how to deal with these situations and properly quarantine those dangerous organisms before disaster strikes??

Maybe there was a breathing apparatus on the space jockey but that's it. Most of the Jockey looked organic and fossilized. A proper space suit would not look decomposed either....unless it was made out of organics which would really be counter intuitive. A space suit made from the product of organic technology wouldn't suffice as a viable " atmospheric suit ". Not in real life....maybe Giger's )

too many questions indeed....

I'll dig out my 35 year old issue of Starlog to get the real deal. I could go on and on, but have other responsibilities. Enjoy!

[BouCoupDinkyDau]

One thing you can't argue: Geiger's Space Jockey is a Lovecraftian masterpiece. It encompasses all of the anxieties of the great unknown out there. What will we eventually find, and how terrible and shocking will it be? ALIEN is the one piece of sci-fi cinema that feels truly alien.

[Krelldog1977]

Originally Posted by BouCoupDinkyDau

One thing you can't argue: Geiger's Space Jockey is a Lovecraftian masterpiece. It encompasses all of the anxieties of the great unknown out there. What will we eventually find, and how terrible and shocking will it be? ALIEN is the one piece of sci-fi cinema that feels truly alien.

That's for sure! the scene involving the examination of the space jockey was powerful....sets your imagination ablaze.

[Lentulus Batiatus]

Originally Posted by mar3o

I wouldn't go that far, so yeah, he is trivializing the hard work the CGI guys put into Prometheus. Obviously the computer CGI wizards worked countless hours to accomplish the visual effects in Prometheus, and it shows. But I think less imagination went into the actual design elements of Prometheus. The interiors of the Prometheus ship look like every other generic spaceship interior you'd see on Sy-Fy or any generic sci-fi flick. The planet in Prometheus was dull and boring visually, as opposed to the frightening alien landscape of LV-426 in Alien. And I agree with his comment on the spacesuits - the spacesuits were and are awesome in Alien. Not so much for Prometheus.

To be fair to that blog though, Alien is considered a classic, and has been considered one and will continue to be considered one for a long time to come. It consistently hits top 10 lists on best sci-fi/horror films, for good reason. It was scary as hell. Prometheus just wasn't scary - at all. And that may be it's biggest sin of all. I doubt if Prometheus will ever be considered a classic. Not in a good way anyways.

That entire blog was hating on EVERYTHING Prometheus because it wasn't the same as Alien. It didn't matter what the designs looked like, it would have garnered the same result. The suits look different there for they SUCK! The planet is different there for is SUCKS! The ship is different there for it SUCKS!

Prometheus is not a shot-for-shot remake of Alien. It exists in the same universe but like our own existence that universe is vastly different. The things in Alien look like everything you'd see in sci-fi movies from the mid-70's onward. It borrows heavily from Star Wars and other influences. It was made with late 70's technology. If it was made today it would be all CGI and designed with today's audience in mind. That entire blog was just a trash piece written to flame Prometheus without any actual thought or analysis. OMG Charlize Theron is to pretty!!!!!!!

[Brian81]

The only thing that really bothers me about Prometheus is that the ship and the space suits are more advanced than those in Alien. The suits look like NASA space suits in Alien, and the Prometheus ones look like something out of Tron. There's CRT monitors in Alien but hologram monitors in Prometheus. Maybe Prometheus 2 would have Weyland under financial duress and sending out older, outdated ships along with a crew knowledgeable in handling outdated ships and tech.

[Lentulus Batiatus]

Originally Posted by Brian81

The only thing that really bothers me about Prometheus is that the ship and the space suits are more advanced than those in Alien. The suits look like NASA space suits in Alien, and the Prometheus ones look like something out of Tron. There's CRT monitors in Alien but hologram monitors in Prometheus. Maybe Prometheus 2 would have Weyland under financial duress and sending out older, outdated ships along with a crew knowledgeable in handling outdated ships and tech.

Prometheus takes place 33 years prior to Alien. Correct?

How many years was the crew of the Nostromo in hypersleep? How long was their assignment? How long were they in hypersleep before they got to their destination? How long has that crew served aboard her? How long has the ship been in service?

There are places in the world today that use old, antiquated equipment and technology to get done many of the jobs that look hightech and advanced in North America. Companies still use World War II or Korean War planes for many things. The 'updated' look isn't difficult to understand.

This is a Blu-ray forum. 10 years ago it didn't exist. In 10 years it may be gone forever. And at this point in human history the best we can do for space travel is take 3 days to go to a useless rock of nothing. And that hasn't been done in 30 years.

[The Fallen Deity]

Imo Prometheus is the 3rd best film in the series.

Alien & Aliens obviously take the top two spots but I can't decide which one I prefer more.

They're both awesome films but because they're so different from each other it's really hard to compare them and say which is better.

[mar3o]

Originally Posted by BouCoupDinkyDau

One thing you can't argue: Geiger's Space Jockey is a Lovecraftian masterpiece. It encompasses all of the anxieties of the great unknown out there. What will we eventually find, and how terrible and shocking will it be? ALIEN is the one piece of sci-fi cinema that feels truly alien.

Agreed. To this day, Alien still has some of the most frightening imagery. And the frightening music adds to that effect as well. When you first see the Space Jockey, and the camera pulls slowly back, I still get chills from the music that accompanies it. Alien is indeed one of the few films that looks truly Alien. Nothing on LV-426 looks man-made. Ggier was and is a genius and Alien wouldn't have been the same without his immense contributions.

By the way there's an awesome book called Giger's Alein that has tons of his artwork for the film and a document of his day-to-day life on the set. A must-have for Alien fans. It's very old so I don't know if it's still available to purchase but maybe it's in re-print.