4K Movies Releases

[Penton-Man]

Originally Posted by PRO-630HD

This is a niche product in the first place...

Perhaps now but, ultimately in the future, think two words *planned obsolescence* by the consumer electronics companies…..of 1080p.

What really matters is what 'type' of 4K we will be viewing in the future.

[Penton-Man]

People don’t do these type things as academic exercises…
http://itersnews.com/?p=12259

[wormraper]

Originally Posted by Penton-Man

People don’t do these type things as academic exercises…
http://itersnews.com/?p=12259

they still have to solve the bandwidth issues

[Mahatma]

Originally Posted by Anthony P

but there are already some of the longer films like Cleopatra, the three extended LOTR films Ben Hur and 10 commandments that use two disks for 1080p. It is not a big issue when it is a 4h film to get up and change disk, but do you really want to have to do that every 3/4 of an hour or an hour?

One could build BD players which have the abilities to read from both sides of a disc I'll stop now

[Penton-Man]

Originally Posted by wormraper

they still have to solve the bandwidth issues

wormraper
Have you been spending too much time again on the golf course fairways *collecting* worms?

Go back to the last page and read the second link in post #247. HEVC is the solution. The question is… when will it gain adoption, i.e. how many years. Commercial HEVC based video conferencing is projected to start at the end of next year. Commercial HEVC broadcast is expected to start in 2015.

‘4K’ is not the only incentive for HEVC adoption. Read the technical paper which I posted. Heck, even if ‘4K’ didn’t exist and was not an issue, HEVC will enable more video channels over the same network infrastructure, mobile devices would greatly benefit from a bit efficient codec like HEVC, etc.

[Penton-Man]

https://forum.blu-ray.com/showthread...90#post6612190

For disclosure as to any potential inherent bias regarding the above ^ review of Life of Pi, I am a fan of the cinematographer who shot this motion picture, who, coincidentally, also shot the music video linked to in my Signature. I also admire the Director, Ang Lee.

[wormraper]

Originally Posted by Penton-Man

wormraper
Have you been spending too much time again on the golf course fairways *collecting* worms?

Go back to the last page and read the second link in post #247. HEVC is the solution. The question is… when will it gain adoption, i.e. how many years. Commercial HEVC based video conferencing is projected to start at the end of next year. Commercial HEVC broadcast is expected to start in 2015.

‘4K’ is not the only incentive for HEVC adoption. Read the technical paper which I posted. Heck, even if ‘4K’ didn’t exist and was not an issue, HEVC will enable more video channels over the same network infrastructure, mobile devices would greatly benefit from a bit efficient codec like HEVC, etc.

HEVC is NOT THAT good. it's good, but nowhere near going to make 4k material into 5 gig files. at most it will drop them to 12-24 gigs. I'm also talking about data caps and greedy IP companies jacking up overage charges. we're already drastically over tapping the bandwidth in many areas by leaps and bounds with tons of market areas not having remotely enough bandwidth, and we're not even talking about GOOD hd (I'm talking with bitrates in 20-30 range). unless HUGE jumps in bandwidth is achieved, we're gonna be stuck with low bitrate 4K material just like we are in todays "streaming of sh!t" 720-1080p world.

[Brightstar]

They are allready out in the uk the Toshiba 55 4k tv costs us around £7000

[Mitchings]

All content shot/recorded in this group..

8mm / 16mm / Rough 35mm Prints
HD / Full-HD,
2K / 3K / 2K DI of CGI-Heavy Film Shot on Film (LOTR for eg.) ,
Low Budget Movies Shot On Film

..are gonna remain on BD @ 1080p as they have little to nothing to gain or will require a ridiculous amount of effort.


Only the the films shot/recorded in this category...

4K,
5K,
Solid/Good 35mm Prints,
65mm,
IMAX 15/70

..will make sense for a BD @ 2160p release, and even then they'll need to promise a decent financial return to make it possible.

I'd say that for anyone with a reasonably sized collection; the majority of your Blu-rays are probably the final physical release and the best they're ever gonna look on physical home media.

---

Also, a 4K (actually Quad-HD 3840*2160p, but I guess "4K" and "Ultra-HD" are easier to market) Blu-ray is feasible if a little initiative is taken and if things are standardised and releases are consolidated.

An "Advanced Blu-ray Disc" format could be made, but it could be fully compatible with previous players, for eg. a the standard 1080p AVC/VC-1 encode could be on Layer 1 & 2 of the disc (spaced as they are on current discs) and intrinsically a "legacy" blu-ray player will read them and ignore any further layers.

Further, more densely packed layers could then sit above them on the blu-ray disc for "advanced" blu-ray players, on these layers there could lie the 2160p encode in the upcoming HEVC (H.265) codec, to further future proof the format, 24/30/48/60 fps modes could be supported for different types of content, increased per colour bit-deth from 8-bit to 12-bit, plus of course 2D/3D (so up to a maximum of 3840*2160p /36-Bit @ 60 fps [per eye] in 3D--the HDMI standard can be upgraded to this).

Another problem is that the industry likes branding features, I think it would be better not to over-brand things or to over-complicate stuff. Rather than having 2D + 2D/3D releases with a 1080p & 2160p version of each. Fade out all 1080p versions of films which have released in 2160p...

There could be only one standard release. A 2D disc which using the idea above includes the standard 1080p encode + advanced 2160p encode. Plus if there's a 3D version of the film, throw in the 3D disc too which also includes the standard 1080p encode + advanced 2160p encode but of course in 3D. The branding on the front and side will be the same with the standard blu-ray logo, the case will be the same but on the back there will be an "Advanced Blu-ray" logo and a clear, visible line saying..

"Compatible with all Blu-ray players. Best on Advanced Blu-ray players". Plus there would be a standardised strip at the bottom showing technical specifications.

The approach in my mind isn't to market this as another transition, as another big thing, the approach is to allow the transition to happen naturally by doing a standard unified 2D/3D-1080p/2160p release which is backwards compatible that in the end while offering more will likely make it cheaper for studios in the end by simplifying things. The simplistic one-size fits all approach will be better for luddites as they won't be confused but the geeks and auteurs will know what they want.

Advanced Blu-ray players will play legacy 1080p discs and advanced 2160p discs.

Legacy Blu-ray players will play legacy 1080p discs and on advanced 2160p discs they will just ignore they extra layers and play the 1080p encode on the first two layers.

Also, to further unify things, every single advanced blu-ray disc whether amaray, digibook, foldout or steelbook should come with a slipcover

It is the best way to do it imo.. Unification, Simplification, Consolidation, Backwards Compatibility, Little Marketing.

I'm gonna do some graphic designs to illustrate my point so I'll post that sometime in the next few days.

[vargo]

Originally Posted by wormraper

HEVC is NOT THAT good. it's good, but nowhere near going to make 4k material into 5 gig files. at most it will drop them to 12-24 gigs. I'm also talking about data caps and greedy IP companies jacking up overage charges. we're already drastically over tapping the bandwidth in many areas by leaps and bounds with tons of market areas not having remotely enough bandwidth, and we're not even talking about GOOD hd (I'm talking with bitrates in 20-30 range). unless HUGE jumps in bandwidth is achieved, we're gonna be stuck with low bitrate 4K material just like we are in todays "streaming of sh!t" 720-1080p world.

The move to HEVC will free up a tonne of bandwidth. Remember we're not going to suddenly have everybody streaming 4k overnight. It will take at least a decade before a significant % of consumers have 4k capable TVs.

The average consumer will still be perfectly happy with 720p or 1080p streams for many years to come and when they upgrade to HEVC capable devices those streams will take up half the bandwidth.

[saprano]

Originally Posted by wormraper

HEVC is NOT THAT good. it's good, but nowhere near going to make 4k material into 5 gig files. at most it will drop them to 12-24 gigs. I'm also talking about data caps and greedy IP companies jacking up overage charges. we're already drastically over tapping the bandwidth in many areas by leaps and bounds with tons of market areas not having remotely enough bandwidth, and we're not even talking about GOOD hd (I'm talking with bitrates in 20-30 range). unless HUGE jumps in bandwidth is achieved, we're gonna be stuck with low bitrate 4K material just like we are in todays "streaming of sh!t" 720-1080p world.

If we can't get good 1080i broadcast (verizon fios is the best though), not to mention 1080p which we still don't have, i don't understand how people think we going to get a respectable quality 4K broadcast. The quality will be the same of what we have now. Maby worse. And there will be even less of a difference between 1080 and 2160 than the actual BD.

Mitchings, i like your post.

[Mitchings]

Originally Posted by Mitchings

All content shot/recorded in this group..

8mm / 16mm / Rough 35mm Prints
HD / Full-HD,
2K / 3K / 2K DI of CGI-Heavy Film Shot on Film (LOTR for eg.) ,
Low Budget Movies Shot On Film

..are gonna remain on BD @ 1080p as they have little to nothing to gain or will require a ridiculous amount of effort.


Only the the films shot/recorded in this category...

4K,
5K,
Solid/Good 35mm Prints,
65mm,
IMAX 15/70

..will make sense for a BD @ 2160p release, and even then they'll need to promise a decent financial return to make it possible.

I'd say that for anyone with a reasonably sized collection; the majority of your Blu-rays are probably the final physical release and the best they're ever gonna look on physical home media.

---

Also, a 4K (actually Quad-HD 3840*2160p, but I guess "4K" and "Ultra-HD" are easier to market) Blu-ray is feasible if a little initiative is taken and if things are standardised and releases are consolidated.

An "Advanced Blu-ray Disc" format could be made, but it could be fully compatible with previous players, for eg. a the standard 1080p AVC/VC-1 encode could be on Layer 1 & 2 of the disc (spaced as they are on current discs) and intrinsically a "legacy" blu-ray player will read them and ignore any further layers.

Further, more densely packed layers could then sit above them on the blu-ray disc for "advanced" blu-ray players, on these layers there could lie the 2160p encode in the upcoming HEVC (H.265) codec, to further future proof the format, 24/30/48/60 fps modes could be supported for different types of content, increased per colour bit-deth from 8-bit to 12-bit, plus of course 2D/3D (so up to a maximum of 3840*2160p /36-Bit @ 60 fps [per eye] in 3D--the HDMI standard can be upgraded to this).

Another problem is that the industry likes branding features, I think it would be better not to over-brand things or to over-complicate stuff. Rather than having 2D + 2D/3D releases with a 1080p & 2160p version of each. Fade out all 1080p versions of films which have released in 2160p...

There could be only one standard release. A 2D disc which using the idea above includes the standard 1080p encode + advanced 2160p encode. Plus if there's a 3D version of the film, throw in the 3D disc too which also includes the standard 1080p encode + advanced 2160p encode but of course in 3D. The branding on the front and side will be the same with the standard blu-ray logo, the case will be the same but on the back there will be an "Advanced Blu-ray" logo and a clear, visible line saying..

"Compatible with all Blu-ray players. Best on Advanced Blu-ray players". Plus there would be a standardised strip at the bottom showing technical specifications.

The approach in my mind isn't to market this as another transition, as another big thing, the approach is to allow the transition to happen naturally by doing a standard unified 2D/3D-1080p/2160p release which is backwards compatible that in the end while offering more will likely make it cheaper for studios in the end by simplifying things. The simplistic one-size fits all approach will be better for luddites as they won't be confused but the geeks and auteurs will know what they want.

Advanced Blu-ray players will play legacy 1080p discs and advanced 2160p discs.

Legacy Blu-ray players will play legacy 1080p discs and on advanced 2160p discs they will just ignore they extra layers and play the 1080p encode on the first two layers.

Also, to further unify things, every single advanced blu-ray disc whether amaray, digibook, foldout or steelbook should come with a slipcover

It is the best way to do it imo.. Unification, Simplification, Consolidation, Backwards Compatibility, Little Marketing.

I'm gonna do some graphic designs to illustrate my point so I'll post that sometime in the next few days.

Mandatory Slipcover Templates for Advanced Blu-ray Discs (Amaray, DigiBook, SteelBook):

FULL SIZE LINK (Amaray)
...



FULL SIZE LINK (DigiBook)
...



FULL SIZE LINK (SteelBook)
...

[Flatnate]

[Show spoiler]

Originally Posted by Mitchings

Mandatory Slipcover Templates for Advanced Blu-ray Discs (Amaray, DigiBook, SteelBook):

FULL SIZE LINK (Amaray)
...



FULL SIZE LINK (DigiBook)
...



FULL SIZE LINK (SteelBook)
...

If you don't mind me asking, where did this new "advanced BD" info come from? It is one of the first things I have seen posted in regard to a Blu-Ray 2160p delivery standard.

Also question:

The graphic refers to two advanced blu-ray options (mandatory advanced, and optional advanced). Mandatory being HEVC (encoding and compression) with 24 to 36 bit RGB (I'm assuming this second part gets in to color space), as well as optional HMVEC encoding and 24 to 48 bit RGB.

Can someone elaborate further (or post a link) on the difference between these encoding schemes? Also, How does 24 to 36 bit RGB, or 24 to 48 bit RGB relate to the proposed Rec. 2020 spec for UHDTV recently set by the ITU-R?

[vargo]

Originally Posted by Flatnate

If you don't mind me asking, where did this new "advanced BD" info come from? It is one of the first things I have seen posted in regard to a Blu-Ray 2160p delivery standard.

He made it up.

[Flatnate]

Originally Posted by vargo

He made it up.

I kinda thought maybe...

I'd still like to know if HEVC encoding will take in to account Rec. 2020 though.

[Penton-Man]

Originally Posted by wormraper

HEVC is NOT THAT good...

Evidence shows that it is actually better than JCT-VC predicted…
http://infoscience.epfl.ch/record/18...SPIE2012_1.pdf

b.t.w., for all those interested in seating positions and such, this test was performed with subjects seated approximately equal to 3.5 times the height of the 56” display.

Obviously the final result of the quality of the video will be dependent upon the bitrate employed by the broadcaster. I would hope that they don’t push the bitrates too low, or else, nobody will feel it worthwhile to pay the extra money for the 4K premium channels which will probably constitute the initial roll-out. But again, if you want the reeeally good stuff behind the bar...you should ask for physical media.

In terms of the science, it seems that French testing has shown that the minimum target (by early HEVC encoders, which should improve over time) to get by with good ‘broadcast quality’ 4K would be ~ 12 Mbits/s.

[Maximus]

Related to 4K, Sony just announced the F5 and F55 pro camcorders for 4K. The F55 does 4K RAW at 16Bit, 4:2:2.

[saprano]

Max!

[Mitchings]

Originally Posted by Flatnate

[Show spoiler]

If you don't mind me asking, where did this new "advanced BD" info come from? It is one of the first things I have seen posted in regard to a Blu-Ray 2160p delivery standard.

ITU-R?

Haha, it isn't real, just part of the mockup--check what I quoted in that post. I'm gonna remove that particular image actually, I made a few errors.

[Anthony P]

Originally Posted by Mahatma

One could build BD players which have the abilities to read from both sides of a disc I'll stop now

honestly I would rather have two disk players. Flippers should not be any easier to make then simple multi layer and they would be more fragile and no art work.