4K Blu-ray Confirmed, Coming in

[Penton-Man]

Originally Posted by HeavyHitter

Penton,

This was posted by a very informed member on another site.

This information stems from SpectraCal (Calman calibration software). What struck me the most is the claim that the studio masters are NOT in P3, but either 2020 or rec 709.

Can you shed any light on this claim?

Heavy,

From the snippets that I saw posted on AVforums, I think with *the no P3 encoding/master thing* Manni, or Manni thru Joel, whatever , is referring to HDR (HDR10 to be precise)…..similarly to there being no P3 in the specs for the mandatory HDR format of Ultra HD Blu-ray (BDMV HDR)….

The BDMV HDR format is characterized by the following properties:

- BDMV HDR video stream is an HEVC video stream (10bit, YCbCr 4:2:0).
- color primaries: BT.2020 with non-constant luminance
- EOTF(Electro-Optical Transfer Function): SMPTE 2084
- Metadata: SMPTE 2086(Mastering display color volume) metadata,

Keep in mind though that despite the post house having access to a Dolby Vision (Christie) projection system, with the feature film T-land, for instance, mastering personnel still produced 3 different theatrical masters: one in DCI P3 for traditional D-Cinema, one in BT. 2020 for Dolby Vision theaters and one in IMAX for a different aspect ratio.

[Geoff D]

Originally Posted by Richard Paul

DCI P3 has been used in movie theaters for about a decade so my guess is that Rec. 709 was only used for 4K TV shows.

Sure, what I'm trying to get at is I think people are conflating theatrical masters - which indeed have been graded in P3 for years and encoded in format-agnostic XYZ for DCP usage - with ones graded for home video in general, what Penton often refers to as the 'trim pass'.

If their express intention for X video master was for consumer home video formats then why would they encode it in anything higher than 709 if there was no better option on consumer gear? Stuff from very recently or even a couple of years ago (when they realised that a format using a wider colour space was not too far away, Sony have already dabbled with xvYCC on regular Blu) may have been laid down in WCG expressly for home-oriented masters but what about 5 years ago, say?

I'm not making it out to be a BIG DEAL because the studios can just whip out the original source files and do a newly migrated P3 4K video master, but given how some studios' names have become a byword for laziness in rehashing old masters it still wouldn't surprise me to see some SDR 709 4K content on UHD Blu is all. [edit] (And it's worth noting that 709 SDR 10-bit is indeed part of the UHD Blu spec for both 1080p and 2160p.)

[Kris Deering]

Originally Posted by FilmFreakosaurus

Yeah, as long as they don't take 1080p home video masters and try to pass them off as UHD with some quick uprezzing (*cough* Universal *cough*), the source for UHD media should be their cinema DI masters, which use DCI-P3 color.

I saw a Barco laser projector demo at CEDIA a few weeks back and it was jaw dropping. The best images I have ever witnessed. Blacks were jet black with little bleed when combined with white text, amazing colors jumped off the screen. And this was on a BIG Cinemascope-like home theater screen.

We already know from the announced titles so far that this is exactly what they plan on doing and will probably represent the bulk of the titles on UHD Blu-ray that will be advertised as 4K for some time to come.

I saw the same Barco demonstration. While it did look quite good (it better with that much light on that size of screen) I would have to disagree with your assessment of the black levels. The 6P projectors do look good for D-Cinema projectors but their contrast abilities are nearly a joke compared to what you can achieve with consumer level home theater projectors. Everything I saw that was darker imagery looked pretty disappointing though they did a good job of selecting dark imagery after bright imagery to pre bias your eyes. Even the Dolby Cinema projectors are a far cry from what we can achieve at home for contrast but they are a massive step forward for D-Cinema black levels.

[Penton-Man]

Originally Posted by Geoff D

what Penton often refers to as the 'trim pass'....

It’s common wordage in the industry, e.g. check out somewhere after the 16 min. mark when the deliverables are discussed for Ender’s Game…..
https://vimeo.com/78581143

I do like my trim from time to time

As to what’s going on behind the scenes in ASC subcommittee, there’s an ongoing effort to explore whether a viable single source graded master can be created that accommodates the possibility of maintaining the consistency of creative look across differing HDR display brightness levels.

[Penton-Man]

Originally Posted by Geoff D

the 'trim pass'.

Come to think of it though, there is a more *urban* connotation for it that’s been used in dialog by Eddie M. in a motion picture like so…
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=24Xi...youtu.be&t=40s

[Geoff D]

I knew what that was without even clicking on it. "My dick gets hard if the wind blows!"

[Richard Paul]

Originally Posted by Geoff D

...
I'm not making it out to be a BIG DEAL because the studios can just whip out the original source files and do a newly migrated P3 4K video master, but given how some studios' names have become a byword for laziness in rehashing old masters it still wouldn't surprise me to see some SDR 709 4K content on UHD Blu is all. [edit] (And it's worth noting that 709 SDR 10-bit is indeed part of the UHD Blu spec for both 1080p and 2160p.)

I could see several of the studios doing that early on with UHD Blu-ray.

Originally Posted by Penton-Man

As to what’s going on behind the scenes in ASC subcommittee, there’s an ongoing effort to explore whether a viable single source graded master can be created that accommodates the possibility of maintaining the consistency of creative look across differing HDR display brightness levels.

With SMPTE 2094 they have 4 options to choose from and it is likely that other companies are working on dynamic metadata systems. Hopefully the ASC will be able to make a decision sometime in 2016 though with patents/royalties involved I could see it getting dragged out like HDR in the ITU.

[Penton-Man]

For those serious calibrator types out there, the color primaries in this clip conform (were encoded) to BT. 2020.

Also… if you track back and follow the hyperlink at the top of that ^ past post about the display coordinates and those coordinates are representative of the color primaries of your personal display, then you should see the HDR10 log burning as Fox intended.

[FilmFreakosaurus]

Originally Posted by Penton-Man

For those serious calibrator types out there, the color primaries in this clip conform (were encoded) to BT. 2020.

Also… if you track back and follow the hyperlink at the top of that ^ past post about the display coordinates and those coordinates are representative of the color primaries of your personal display, then you should see the HDR10 log burning as Fox intended.

Aren't there still issues yet to be resolved with the 2020 gamut specs.?

[Opips3]

[raygendreau]

“Industry insiders have told HD Guru that the specification-setting process has dragged on through much of the year, in part, because of disagreements over HDR brightness ranges between LED LCD TV manufacturers and LG and OLED component suppliers, which are championing the needs of OLED TV technology.

Due to inherent technology differences – OLED panels are emissive and generate their own light while LCD TVs are transmissive and require LED back or edge lighting to create a picture — 4K Ultra HD LED LCD TVs and OLED TVs display HDR using different degrees of brightness and darkness.
LCD TVs are capable of higher brightness levels (more than 1,000 nits in some cases) than most OLED display devices, while OLED TVs are capable of achieving “absolute black levels,” because they can completely shut off light at the pixel level. The best LED TVs can do is locally dim zones of LED backlights to near black but not the absolute blackness generated in OLED displays.

Therefore, the two technologies come at HDR from different directions. OLED starts at black and works up 14 to 15 camera f-stops of light (steps of increasing brightness) in the HDR spectrum. LED TVs start at maximum brightness they can generate and work down the 15 stops to the lowest level of black they can achieve.”

read:http://hdguru.com/uhd-alliance-sets-...ces-unveiling/

The logical compromise is for the Alliance to define the “Premium” HDR specification in terms of camera F-stops i.e. 15 f-stops for premium with anything below 15 considered HDR “lite”. OLED and LCD CE manufacturers should accept that.

[Robert Zohn]

ray, if 15 f-stops is accepted as the requirement for "Premium" HDR, then how or why would it matter if you count from peak luminance or MLL? Actually, mathematically and physically it makes no difference whatsoever.

F-stops relates to the amount of light that passes through and the higher the f-stop value the less light that passes through. Every single f-stop in numeric value cuts the light output in half, conversely every lower valued f-stop increases the light by the multiple of x2.

So in photography on a camera lens f11 delivers 1/2 of the passing through the lens than the next larger lens aperture, called f8. And it simply does not matter which direction you measure the light so starting from MLL to increasing the light to starting at the peak luminance and gradually reducing the f-stops give you exactly the same results.

What does matter is how low the light output can go on the display as our vision is more sensitive to low light and further high peak luminance is uncomfortable in low ambient light viewing. So for HDR mapped to OLEDs f-stop range will perform far better than any LCD TV that can produce higher light output and unfortunately, higher MLL.

If you consider the population of the HDR Alliance you may be able to see why LG may have trouble getting OLED ranked as a "Premium" HDR display.

-Robert

[HeavyHitter]

Originally Posted by Penton-Man

Sorry Kris, no harm was intended as I’m not familiar with manni (no offense) nor any of those other people posting on avforums (again no offense) and didn’t realize it may have been meant (was it?) to be a brainstorming session among highly qualified calibrators with years of experience geared toward improving implementation of a product…..though I’d think that be best performed and most productive in a SpectraCal discussion group.

My point was that I was trying to save casual readers (like HeavyHitter) the heartache (and equipmental expense) of pursuing HDR calibration by doing it themselves, often to a lesser quality than someone who does it for a living or as a very serious hobby.

I have one of the top traveling calibrators in the country do my cal work, but I like to stay informed.

[Penton-Man]

Originally Posted by FilmFreakosaurus

Aren't there still issues yet to be resolved with the 2020 gamut specs.?

You'll have to give me a few minutes to type up a response to that...hold the phone.

[Penton-Man]

Originally Posted by raygendreau

“Industry insiders have told HD Guru that....

See - https://forum.blu-ray.com/showthread...l#post11602118

[Penton-Man]

Originally Posted by Robert Zohn

....
-Robert

When's the next shootout?

[Penton-Man]

Originally Posted by HeavyHitter

I have one of the top traveling calibrators in the country do my cal work, but I like to stay informed.

Best possible combination …. and see my follow-up posts for additional info.
Now back to the question posed by Filmfreak. thinking...typing...thinking.

[Robert Zohn]

Originally Posted by Penton-Man

When's the next shootout?

We're considering a second TV Shootout evaluation for the current 2015-16 TVs that were in our June 25-26 2015 Shootout, but this one will be focused on HDR, P3 color, 10-bit and PQ digital gamma.

We're waiting for Ultra HD BD and a few good HDR titles as well as a few needed new test patterns. So if all goes as planned this will come to fruition early February 2016.

If we can't get this put together then we'll default to our 2016 annual TV Shootout that will likely be the summer of 2016 and it will be with the new 2016 flagship TVs.

Hope you can join us!

-Robert

[Penton-Man]

Originally Posted by FilmFreakosaurus

Aren't there still issues yet to be resolved with the 2020 gamut specs.?

Well yeah….if you work for 3M and/or are somehow involved in marketing the quantum dot stuff. Fact is, there was equal input from both the Japanese (think laser folks) and the Koreans (think flat panel TV folks) for the RGB primaries for UHDTV systems. There was never any debate at all about the blue (467nm). Difference in green was insignificant (531 vs. 532nm) between the two input *groups*. Red was the only one on the spectral locus which was up for debate (625 vs. 635nm). The red primary of 630 nm was found to be the best choice, because it was determined that 630 can reflect colorimetric characteristics of both flat panel displays and laser displays.

On the other hand, if you’re referring to Rec. 2020 and *gamma* well, the story with that is that it all goes back to the finalization process for ITU-R BT. 2020 (in 2012) in which the United States (prompted by Dolby) asked for an addendum note to the Recommendation stating essentially that for in the future a new transfer function could be added (if all parties agreed to it) in order to take into account the fact that new TVS (which is where we are now in 2015/2016) would be capable of higher luminance (than back in 2012).

So….flash forward to present day and HDR is a separate recommendation to UHDTV (http://www.itu.int/md/meetingdoc.asp...source=RG%2024 ), but which can be coupled to it. The question is ‘which’ transfer function(s) will be recommended.

Stay tuned for that next year.

[Penton-Man]

Originally Posted by Robert Zohn

We're considering a second TV Shootout evaluation for the current 2015-16 TVs that were in our June 25-26 2015 Shootout, but this one will be focused on HDR, P3 color, 10-bit and PQ digital gamma.

We're waiting for Ultra HD BD and a few good HDR titles as well as a few needed new test patterns. So if all goes as planned this will come to fruition early February 2016.

If we can't get this put together then we'll default to our 2016 annual TV Shootout that will likely be the summer of 2016 and it will be with the new 2016 flagship TVs.

Hope you can join us!

-Robert

If only I were in your neck of the woods. I’m thinking first part of Feb. I’ll be real busy trying to get work done before heading out to our annual retreat in the desert - http://hollywoodpostalliance.org/?ai...4&instance_id=