Twilight Time Discussion Thread

[Aclea]

Not in the context of other Italian movie posters of those decades - or indeed of some other Catholic countries that used blood of Christ analogies as a recurring sales tool. And stigmata is a recurring feature of Mann's reluctant redemption Westerns (it's not exactly an accident that Stewart is shot in the hand, just as it's not an accident that his character is 'resurrected' after his pre-film execution in Bend of the River: Mann spent part of his early childhood in a religious movement his parents joined), so in this case it's appropriate - but in other Italian posters unsubtle violent religious imagery would be grafted on fairly gratuitously.

[RCRochester]

Originally Posted by Richard--W

I think the stigmata analogy might be stretching it.

Subtlety is hardly the point of a western poster.

Stewart is shot in the hand and there's blood, so the image is entirely appropriate for a poster.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Subtext

[belcherman]

Originally Posted by Aclea

Not in the context of other Italian movie posters of those decades - or indeed of some other Catholic countries that used blood of Christ analogies as a recurring sales tool. And stigmata is a recurring feature of Mann's reluctant redemption Westerns (it's not exactly an accident that Stewart is shot in the hand, just as it's not an accident that his character is 'resurrected' after his pre-film execution in Bend of the River: Mann spent part of his early childhood in a religious movement his parents joined), so in this case it's appropriate - but in other Italian posters unsubtle violent religious imagery would be grafted on fairly gratuitously.

While I won't debate the religious symbolism and subtext in The Man From Laramie, Stewart's character being shot in the hand isn't an accident. It's a major plot point and it's the reason why he has to use a rifle in the rest of the movie (the hand was his gun hand). This kind of impairment wasn't new to a Mann/Stewart western, either, as Stewart's character in The Far Country had his gun arm in a sling.

As for the Italian poster art, it's clear they were trying to sell the blood and violence.

[Richard--W]

Originally Posted by Aclea

Not in the context of other Italian movie posters of those decades - or indeed of some other Catholic countries that used blood of Christ analogies as a recurring sales tool. And stigmata is a recurring feature of Mann's reluctant redemption Westerns (it's not exactly an accident that Stewart is shot in the hand, just as it's not an accident that his character is 'resurrected' after his pre-film execution in Bend of the River: Mann spent part of his early childhood in a religious movement his parents joined), so in this case it's appropriate - but in other Italian posters unsubtle violent religious imagery would be grafted on fairly gratuitously.

Your Blazing Saddles / Blazing Horses quip rubbed me the wrong way, that's all.

These are good points you make about Mann's background and the stories he tells in his films, and are not unknown to me. The hanging as crucifixion in The Furies, for example which might be the furthest Mann ever pushed his convictions. It is precisely Mann's convictions, together with his location shooting in far-off national parks, that elevate his westerns out of the average.

I actually like the symbolism and pictorial qualities of Italian movie posters especially in the 1950s. The Italian posters for The Man From Laramie communicate the subtext of the film whereas the American posters don't (although the American posters were fine) and acknowledge that there's more to this story than just a shoot'em up.

[Sinbad75]

Originally Posted by Dailyan

Managed to snag "Flint" for a whopping 31.77 after a $25 off coupon and some "spare" PayPal funds.

Can you share where you got this deal? Have been looking for "Our man Flint" for years for under the $100 plus you see on eBay. Kick myself for not purchasing when first released.

[Aclea]

Originally Posted by belcherman

While I won't debate the religious symbolism and subtext in The Man From Laramie, Stewart's character being shot in the hand isn't an accident. It's a major plot point and it's the reason why he has to use a rifle in the rest of the movie (the hand was his gun hand). This kind of impairment wasn't new to a Mann/Stewart western, either, as Stewart's character in The Far Country had his gun arm in a sling.

IIRC the shooting in the hand doesn't occur in the Saturday Evening Post serial (though as usual there are quite a few changes en route to the screen, and I believe there may have been further changes when the serial was published as a novel) but significantly in Frank Burt's first pass at the screenplay before it was revised by Philip Yordan he isn't shot in the hand either, he's shot in the arm (the elbow, I believe) and then for good measure has his fingers broken one by one. The shooting in the hand (which is less protracted and slightly more censor friendly) is a subsequent addition. Since Burt was very much Stewart's choice of writer and Yordan Mann and the studio's (at one point Yordan even lodged with Mann and his second wife, Sarita Montiel), I don't think it's an over-reaching assumption that Mann was taking his stigmatic imagery to its logical conclusion - especially since Yordan later compared his version of Christ in King of Kings to a Western loner.

[Dailyan]

Originally Posted by Sinbad75

Can you share where you got this deal? Have been looking for "Our man Flint" for years for under the $100 plus you see on eBay. Kick myself for not purchasing when first released.

I had been watching the "Flint" bundle on eBay for months it use to be a LOT higher (140, 130), finally it got down to 119.99, I was still hesitant to pull the trigger even with multiple eBay 15-20% off deals. Then last week, during Prime Day, eBay had a $25 off coupon or orders 119 or more (The peculiar number due to how much it costs for Amazon Prime a year I believe). That is what make me pull the trigger and I had plenty of PayPal funds from some prior sales (63.22 worth) to get for down to 31.77. These were both blind buys for me but as a lifelong Bond fan and Coburn fan (ever since seeing Monsters Inc. as a six year old) I couldn't pass up; it was easily the cheapest they were ever going to be especially for "Our Man Flint".

[Aclea]

Originally Posted by Richard--W

Your Blazing Saddles / Blazing Horses quip rubbed me the wrong way, that's all.

Look at it again: the second poster very misleadingly includes images of burning horses, which does not occur in the salt flats sequence.

It is precisely Mann's convictions, together with his location shooting in far-off national parks, that elevate his westerns out of the average.

Mann did love to end his movies in the high country, the higher the better: it's another recurring feature in many of them - and not just the Westerns (Men in War ends with a brutal and costly assault on a foothill). Even when doing uncredited directorial work on Richard Fleischer's Follow Me Quietly (which Mann also co-wrote) his fingerprints are all over the finale, prefiguring his beloved mountain/canyon shootouts by having the finale take place in a chemical factory's gantries and platforms.

[CinemaScope]

Originally Posted by Sinbad75

Can you share where you got this deal? Have been looking for "Our man Flint" for years for under the $100 plus you see on eBay. Kick myself for not purchasing when first released.

Yup, me too. I bought In Like Flint (I do love that dopey film), but by by the time I thought I'd buy the first one...it had sold out! One of the things I love about In Like Flint is Jerry Goldsmiths jazzy score, which I lifted from the isolated track on the Blu-ray & made my own CD, I'd love to do that with Our Man Flint. I'd have thought Blu-rays of these films would have turned up in Europe by now, but no joy yet.

[Dailyan]

Originally Posted by CinemaScope

Yup, me too. I bought In Like Flint (I do love that dopey film), but by by the time I thought I'd buy the first one...it had sold out! One of the things I love about In Like Flint is Jerry Goldsmiths jazzy score, which I lifted from the isolated track on the Blu-ray & made my own CD, I'd love to do that with Our Man Flint. I'd have thought Blu-rays of these films would have turned up in Europe by now, but no joy yet.

I'm kind of amazed that this is one of those rare TT releases so far that hasn't been re-released anywhere. Even "Those Magnificent Men" had a Japanese release a few years ago.

[Sinbad75]

Originally Posted by Dailyan

I had been watching the "Flint" bundle on eBay for months it use to be a LOT higher (140, 130), finally it got down to 119.99, I was still hesitant to pull the trigger even with multiple eBay 15-20% off deals. Then last week, during Prime Day, eBay had a $25 off coupon or orders 119 or more (The peculiar number due to how much it costs for Amazon Prime a year I believe). That is what make me pull the trigger and I had plenty of PayPal funds from some prior sales (63.22 worth) to get for down to 31.77. These were both blind buys for me but as a lifelong Bond fan and Coburn fan (ever since seeing Monsters Inc. as a six year old) I couldn't pass up; it was easily the cheapest they were ever going to be especially for "Our Man Flint".

Thanks for the feedback. Congrats on a great deal. Well played my friend!

[RCRochester]

Originally Posted by Dailyan

I had been watching the "Flint" bundle on eBay for months it use to be a LOT higher (140, 130), finally it got down to 119.99, I was still hesitant to pull the trigger even with multiple eBay 15-20% off deals. Then last week, during Prime Day, eBay had a $25 off coupon or orders 119 or more (The peculiar number due to how much it costs for Amazon Prime a year I believe). That is what make me pull the trigger and I had plenty of PayPal funds from some prior sales (63.22 worth) to get for down to 31.77. These were both blind buys for me but as a lifelong Bond fan and Coburn fan (ever since seeing Monsters Inc. as a six year old) I couldn't pass up; it was easily the cheapest they were ever going to be especially for "Our Man Flint".

Our Man Flint was my very first Twilight Time purchase back when it first came out. Paid full price for it. One month later In Like Flint was my second (Twilight Time released them a month apart for some reason).

IMO, they are the best of the non-Bond 60s spy-fi movies. They look gorgeous, the music is great and James Coburn is the coolest.

I found it amusing when the distinctive phone tone from the movie was used in Hudson Hawk (which Coburn also appeared in)... it was also, naturally, used in the Austin Powers movies.

Looking back through my order history at Screen Archives, in my third Twilight Time order I paid $34.95 for Pal Joey!

[Richard--W]

Originally Posted by Aclea

Look at it again: the second poster very misleadingly includes images of burning horses, which does not occur in the salt flats sequence.

Blazing Saddles ridiculed and trivialized the west of Anthony Mann and other directors. I didn't share it's sense of humor. Yes I saw the horses in front of the fire and the fire creeping under them but I didn't see horses on fire in the poster. That having been said, I get the point. Other posters for the film show fire but more or less brush out the wagon.

Originally Posted by Aclea

Mann did love to end his movies in the high country, the higher the better: it's another recurring feature in many of them - and not just the Westerns (Men in War ends with a brutal and costly assault on a foothill). Even when doing uncredited directorial work on Richard Fleischer's Follow Me Quietly (which Mann also co-wrote) his fingerprints are all over the finale, prefiguring his beloved mountain/canyon shootouts by having the finale take place in a chemical factory's gantries and platforms.

Understood, but the showdown in the high rocks or high mountains started in the earliest western novels and silent films. Riders of the Purple Sage comes to mind, particularly the 1931 version. Delmar Daves and John Sturges mined the high country showdwon in their A westerns but so did countless B programmers. Mann invested the high country showdown with a lot more gravitas than anyone. That unforgettable scene where Stewart forces Arthur Kennedy to shove the wagon full of Winchesters intended for the tribe over the cliff, for example.

American one-sheet:


The British quad based in part on the American three-sheet:


I wish Warner Brothers would spend the pennies to restore The Naked Spur (MGM 1953) for bluray. Or restore it and let Twilight Time release it. Kino-Lorber admits to acquiring Anthony Mann films in their Universal deal and may be releasing Winchester '73, Bend of the River or The Far Country soon, perhaps all three.

[belcherman]

Originally Posted by Aclea

IIRC the shooting in the hand doesn't occur in the Saturday Evening Post serial (though as usual there are quite a few changes en route to the screen, and I believe there may have been further changes when the serial was published as a novel) but significantly in Frank Burt's first pass at the screenplay before it was revised by Philip Yordan he isn't shot in the hand either, he's shot in the arm (the elbow, I believe) and then for good measure has his fingers broken one by one. The shooting in the hand (which is less protracted and slightly more censor friendly) is a subsequent addition. Since Burt was very much Stewart's choice of writer and Yordan Mann and the studio's (at one point Yordan even lodged with Mann and his second wife, Sarita Montiel), I don't think it's an over-reaching assumption that Mann was taking his stigmatic imagery to its logical conclusion - especially since Yordan later compared his version of Christ in King of Kings to a Western loner.

Again, I'm not arguing for against any Christ symbolism that Mann or others may have intended. I'm just saying that there are CONtextual reasons why Stewart's character is shot in the hand. True, they could have had him shot in the arm (or elbow), but I doubt Mann wanted to repeat himself so obviously (remember the sling from The Far Country).

Having seen Man From Laramie twice now, I missed the stigmata imagery both times. Maybe if his hand were not heavily bandaged, but instead was dripping with blood... I'm sure that European audiences were much more accustomed to seeing religious imagery in art.

Anyway, being able to interpret something on multiple levels is what makes art.

[RCRochester]

Originally Posted by Richard--W

Your Blazing Saddles / Blazing Horses quip rubbed me the wrong way, that's all.

Originally Posted by Richard--W

Blazing Saddles ridiculed and trivialized the west of Anthony Mann and other directors. I didn't share it's sense of humor.

So you got your nose out of joint just because he mentioned Blazing Saddles?

Considering how much you flipped out when I dared to suggest Skullduggery wasn't as great as you thought it was, I have to say you've got some issues man.

[Richard--W]

Originally Posted by RCRochester

So you got your nose out of joint just because he mentioned Blazing Saddles?

Considering how much you flipped out when I dared to suggest Skullduggery wasn't as great as you thought it was, I have to say you've got some issues man.

No, I didn't.
You're the one with the issues.

Will you please stop these personal attacks?

Stop obsessing over me and just talk about the films.

[RCRochester]

Originally Posted by Richard--W

No, I didn't.
You're the one with the issues.

Will you please stop these personal attacks?

Stop obsessing over me and just talk about the films.

[noirjunkie]

Originally Posted by Richard--W

No, I didn't.
You're the one with the issues.

Will you please stop these personal attacks?

Stop obsessing over me and just talk about the films.

If you keep going the way you're going, lobbing insults at others, then claiming you didn't and instead complaining about "personal attacks," you're going to end up like this again: https://www.hometheaterforum.com/com...hard-w.315184/

[mja345]

Damn, looks like suspensions and bans were issued over a discussion that started with "The Man From Laramie" of all films. Have to say I definitely didn't expect that when I left my thoughts on it.

Really interesting to read your thoughts on the film, Aclea. I noticed "Winchester '73" is getting a release in France soon. It's one of my 5-10 favorite Westerns.

[Aclea]

Originally Posted by mja345

Damn, looks like suspensions and bans were issued over a discussion that started with "The Man From Laramie" of all films. Have to say I definitely didn't expect that when I left my thoughts on it.

Really interesting to hear your thoughts on the film, Aclea. I noticed "Winchester '73" is getting a release in France soon. It's one of my 5-10 favorite Westerns.

Damn is right: I think I may have to change my dictionary definition of oy gevalt...

Meanwhile, back in Mannly country thanks - and I appreciated your take on it too, which brought up some aspects I hadn't really considered before: as Belcherman sagely notes, 'being able to interpret something on multiple levels is what makes art.'

I'm hoping that Twilight Time might one day get round to Reign of Terror/The Black Book, which is one of Mann's best - Columbia's MOD DVD-R is easily the best transfer of the film out there, so it would be great if it turned up as part of their Sony deal. But part of me shudders at the Terror that may descend upon the board discussing an expressionist film noir set in the bloodiest stages of the French Revolution. Sacre bleu!